speaker-1: Loyal fans buy regardless of the experience, but a better experience does equate to a higher conversion rate as well and possibly higher average order values. Honesty Commerce is a weekly podcast where we interview direct-to-consumer brand founders and leaders to find out what it takes to start, grow, and scale an online business today. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honesty Commerce. Today I’m extremely lucky to welcome to the show a competitor, a friend. A founder, a CEO, ⁓ Ben Lord is the founder and CEO of Soft Limit. ⁓ they are also Shopify premiere partners ⁓ over there in New York City. He’s a lifelong musician. He spent the last 16 years helping independent record labels and many, many, many awesome D2C brands turn loyal audiences into sustainable e-commerce revenue. Ben, welcome to the show. Thanks for I’m excited to chat. ⁓ so what are some of the the problems that you and the team over there at Soft Limit are tackling these days?

speaker-0: ⁓ I mean honestly the the the problems never stop, right? But the ⁓ I I think the the main thing that we’re focused on at this point is is is really trying to help the music industry ⁓ get a handle on ⁓ D to C and what it means to be operators in the space.

speaker-1: I am unfortunately very qualified to have a very good conversation with you about this topic. but you know, I don’t, it’s the show isn’t about me. The show is about you. So tell me, why should I listen to you out of you know the four or five hundred other Shopify experts that exist out there in the ecosystem? How how do you know what you’re talking about?

speaker-0: Absolutely. So for me this is this is a passion project. I’ve been involved with music since I was a kid. ⁓ started playing drums when I was ten years old when on my first tour when I was thirteen years old. ⁓ so I I’ve been in and around music for the majority of my life. worked at Atlantic Records for years, ⁓ work in worked in the entertainment space at a marketing agency for several years, all that on top of just being a a touring musician and and and doing the thing and hitting hitting the pavement. ⁓ but On top of that, I’ve also been ⁓ running an e commerce agency for the last sixteen years. and I’m trying now to kind of combine those two passions really and and kind of bring it all full three sixty and and make sure that I’m like leveling up the the the people and the friends that I know in in the music industry that I the the you know the the thing that I love more than anything and ⁓ trying to give it a a solid footing to stand on with everything that I know about the the D to C space and the B to B space. Yeah.

speaker-1: I love that you have that newfound passion to try to merge those worlds. Mine diverged maybe when we started the agency eight years ago. ⁓ but you know, I I guess a question to you would be like, we stopped servicing that industry on purpose and and it also expanded a bit beyond that to where it was creators, artists. ⁓ YouTubers, rappers, bands, musicians, etc., we found that A, they’re Shopify stores, they’re all becoming Shopify stores. They’re all Shopify stores now, basically, if you if you didn’t know that. But ⁓ they’re glorified merch stores, and it doesn’t really matter what you do to the website when they drop a new tour or announce a new album, the merch is going to sell. And so with that knowledge of the that one side of it, and then the other is there are infinitely more cooks in the kitchen and nobody wants to pick up the bill. we kind of just politely bowed out of that ecosystem. ⁓ that’s my jaded perspective. Give me a different one. Sure.

speaker-0: ⁓ I mean I I’ve spent years kind of looking at ⁓ e commerce websites for ⁓ for these labels and for artists and kind of always noticing the same patterns that you just ⁓ that you just spoke to. ⁓ they often look like shit. They often ⁓ are just glorified merch stores. ⁓ they’re often ⁓ not easy to use, they’re not customer focused. ⁓ and so I I kind of dug in on that and like looked for the the the places where we could where we could fix it and you know we we we got lucky and started working with a a couple of labels out of the gate that have legacy problems that they needed to solve like polyvinyl. and you know so for a a a a company like that that has history, that understands the tech, that is willing to put in the the effort and the has the interest to evolve with the times and evolve their their D to C practice. That’s kind of exactly where we want to sit. And those are the types of of ⁓ companies that we want to work with, companies that see themselves as a brand ⁓ more than ⁓ just, you know, somebody that happens to put out music. Like this, these are stores just like any other stores. And that that’s exactly like where we’re trying to bridge the gap is How do we get these people to ⁓ and these labels to understand that they have something that normal D2C stores would absolutely l kill for? ⁓ loyal fans, loyal audiences, people that are watching their sites for those new drops, for those new tour dates, whatever it may be, that want to buy more of the thing, but they are not being given the opportunity to buy more of that thing. ⁓ so that’s kind of been our thesis in all of this, is like. How do we surface and bridge that gap and and ⁓ make those stores that are willing to ⁓ go that extra step ⁓ that much better and able to convert?

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that’s the exception to every rule is when you find people that are willing to invest and are willing to listen to ⁓ an expert. It it’s it’s surprising, and obviously this goes well beyond music, but it’s surprising when you get on the phone with people that are reaching out to an expert and just don’t want to hear your advice and just want you to do what they have pre described to be the solution to their problem, which in your expertise, you’re like this that’s not I wouldn’t do that. You know what I mean? It’s it’s wild when that stuff happens.

speaker-0: Absolutely. We we try really hard to avoid the the the Web ⁓ D ⁓ side of things of, you know, and I I think we get that more and more now in in our industry, especially like being the doctor and people coming to you with the prescription. ⁓ and it’s like you need to take a step back and and say like, Okay, I understand what you’re trying to achieve. Let’s look at it how that what we actually need to do to get there and like what we’ve seen work in the past versus what hasn’t. ⁓ so yeah, absolutely.

speaker-1: I know this because you shared some lovely notes with me, but obviously we’re going into the eleventh year of ⁓ the industry kind of staggering, not necessarily ⁓ doing the best as it historically did with the insane sales of, you know, when vinyl and CD were like physical buying physical media mattered way more in the nineties. It definitely now is on a resurgence. ⁓ what are some of the patterns you’re seeing with your clients and like the wins that they’re getting by listening to your guys’ advice?

speaker-0: Sure. I mean we’re we’re seeing a across the board ⁓ conversion rate lifts, we’re seeing across the board average order value lifts. and we’re seeing ⁓ customers sticking around longer and exploring the site longer because they ⁓ can actually go deeper with the content. A lot of the sites that we’re working on, ⁓ the the legacy platforms that they’re on or just the way that they were set up, ⁓ they’re just they’re just broken, ⁓ plain and simple. They they you land on a collection page, you have no way to filter other than maybe buy artist. you can’t filter by the type of thing that you’re looking for, if it’s a shirt or, you know, et cetera. ⁓ all the things that we know as standard practices in in econ. and even going deeper than that, the the the wins are really coming from the the cross cells and the upsells ⁓ and post purchase ⁓ offerings. All of those things that again, we, me and you, as as people that run agencies that ⁓ see this all the time, we know like this is the playbook. ⁓ and there there is a playbook. There is an operation operators playbook to to to use ⁓ and to learn from. And ⁓ I think that we just want to make sure that that’s carried across all of these sites because there’s the way that the industry’s growing, ⁓ it’s kind of it’s it’s it hit its peak this year. It’s thirty billion dollar industry suddenly. Like if for the first time ever, it’s crossed over thirty billion dollars. ⁓ and so like making sure that the majority of that money can come back to the artist and come back to the label is also like part of what we’re trying to achieve with with everything ⁓ and all of the work that we’re doing because the more and more of that that gets handed to third parties, the more separated everything gets, the the less data the labels and s and the artists have about their customers, the less able they are to retarget to them. ⁓ and that’s just something that I I like as an artist myself, I hate. I I I wanna I wanna see all of that going back to the label and to the artist because then it it helps, it compounds, you know.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. So two things there. When you say third parties, I’m just gonna throw out some guesses there. Streaming through services such as Spotify or Amazon or ⁓ iTunes. ⁓ does iTunes exist anymore? Is it now just Apple Music? Doesn’t matter. But there’s that. And then also ⁓ buying physical media through the nameless, faceless giant of Amazon. You could also say like the Walmarts, the the the Best Buys or whatever, where you don’t have the direct connection to your customer. If you could get that same customer to buy on bin Lord.com, You now have their email, their phone number, their zip code. You can market to them when your ⁓ tour is coming through town. You can give them exclusive opportunities with new releases, et cetera. That’s the experience that you’re trying to help these artists and these labels give.

speaker-0: That’s exactly right. Yeah. And it it’s always the I mean the the music industry is built on distribution and built on third parties, right? Like there there’s no taking that away. There’s always going to be the third party record store or whatever it may be selling things ⁓ f a ⁓ while you’re while a band is on tour. There’s always gonna be some level of disconnect. But the more and more that we can like pull that t tighter and make sure that it is landing with the right resource and and at the right source. ⁓ the more that ⁓ that the labels and the artists can do with it, absolutely.

speaker-1: That’s amazing. ⁓ now with going back to what you were saying about the wins that you’re seeing for your clients, one thing I saw what I was thinking about when you said that is like, all right, let’s draw some parallels between other business models. Obviously, this is a music focused conversation, but other types of stores that would probably have similarities would be large ⁓ catalog, maybe legacy stores selling other people’s brands. Like that’s almost the direct comparison.

speaker-0: Don’t it’s quite a direct comparison because of the ⁓ the kind of i ingrained emotional aspect that is music. ⁓ so I I think that the the more direct comparison would would be things that are are media focused, books, et cetera. Yeah. but I I I think that when you look at a more broad marketplace like an Amazon, sure, like that there’s it’s it’s got the right amount of ⁓ variation to it, but like it doesn’t have the emotional impact. And the thing that labels are able to do and do very, very well ⁓ if they’re a successful label, is they are creating culture. They are creating that line that ⁓ creates a a a direct connection to a fan and like the fact that they are not able to own that relationship i is just a big mess. Absolutely.

speaker-1: Absolutely. And I think that I alluded to it earlier with ⁓ you know, when they announce a ⁓ tour or or or like ⁓ there’s a new product line that is dropped, that emotional connection immediately transfers into like conversion rate. ⁓ loyal fans buy regardless of the experience, but a better experience does equate to a higher conversion rate as well and possibly higher average order values. ⁓ what are, you know, obviously it depends. It’s very specific. But what are some of like the commonalities you see across these music clients of how you’re increasing their conversion rates or how you’re increasing their average order values?

speaker-0: direct relationships ⁓ between products. I I think that that again, like that that’s a really easy thing to to cross sell. you’re buying a a a record from artist X, you want to buy the same t-shirt from that from that artist. Or you know maybe at the post purchase you’re you’re offering ⁓ their their previous record for 10% off, whatever it may be. Those upsells and cross sells are working tremendously well across ⁓ this this space. ⁓ and I think because they are like they’re so obvious. They’re staring us in the face. Like these are the things that people are here for. This is the the the the fan is there for that artist and and maybe more. And being able to directly connect them to more of that path and that discovery path is is huge also. I mean, one of the things that we built out on ⁓ on Polyvinyl is not just an artist page ⁓ for every artist, but also like what are the other connections for that artist and and for that band. So every every band member is in five other bands or whatever it may be, right? ⁓ and so you can just go directly to that other band and kind of follow that thread and follow follow that person, that musician, ⁓ to their other projects and kind of take it a level deeper with and and and just like discover things that you maybe haven’t seen before and ⁓ and get those direct relationships ⁓ happening throughout the the the bind journey.

speaker-1: Would it be safe to assume that you’re doing you’re buying album X, you want T shirt X, ⁓ but it’s like people who listen to X also listen to Y? Is that a a part of the experience?

speaker-0: Absolutely. ⁓ I think as much as we can tailor that, I I think that that is where the the labels themselves ⁓ own that piece of curation. And that that’s where it starts to become that hub. Whereas if you’re on a third party marketplace that is dedicated to music, sure there’s some algorithm that’s potentially like throwing you this and this, but when it is like already curated by the people that put this out, ⁓ it becomes that much more powerful of a connection and that much more of a you. will probably like this too because we are also putting this out. ⁓ so trying to find those lines that that really matter to people.

speaker-1: Hey everybody, just a quick reminder. Please like this video and subscribe if you haven’t. We’re releasing interviews like this every week. So don’t miss out. Now back to the interview. So for the the nerds that are listening, shout out to my group chat that it’s going to get sent this episode. what how what’s the technology powering some of these decisions? I’m gonna guess and you’re gonna tell me if I’m right or wrong. ⁓ you’ve got a favorite cross sell upsell app, you’ve got a favorite kind of post purchase app. a lot of the Data part of this is also living in meta fields in Shopify. That’s right.

speaker-0: Yeah, the we we only work in Shopify. So when when we’re when we’re pulling over ⁓ and w when we’re having these conversations, we’re strictly talking about like what it looks like for sh for a brand to be on Shopify. ⁓ so that’s that’s the core piece to the tech stack. Building out those relationships and meta objects and meta fields, absolutely, that is one hundred ⁓

speaker-1: I think I think we gotta pause there. It’s the the the product data, the meta fields, like do you often find that’s the first thing you gotta do with some of these projects is just like clean up the bullshit that they’re like all right, these were added by nineteen different interns over the last five years. Let’s consolidate, clean this up a lot of matrixify fun stuff. ⁓ yeah.

speaker-0: Absolutely. That that was one of the hardest problems of ⁓ to solve for the the polyvinyl site, which had a ⁓ fifteen year old legacy ⁓ CMS that they that they hand built ⁓ with multiple developers across that time period. ⁓ so getting all of that data into the right places on Shopify was a huge piece of the puzzle that we had to uncover. ⁓ the same thing that we’re going through now for merge records. So it’s like ⁓ absolutely getting the data in the right places is always the hardest part when it comes to to any of these projects, I think. ⁓ And so yeah, powering that powering that into ⁓ the right places on Shopify, whether that be like content that should not be in the product description, getting it into a discrete meta field, you know, it’s often people are listing ⁓ track track listings and things like that in and product descriptions, and maybe that’s not the right place. ⁓ so on and so forth, and making sure that even going a step further than that, that we’re using the right structured data for music products. ⁓ and making sure that that’s helping with with the the SEO side of things and the the Google ability of things. and then beyond that, ⁓ going a a level deeper into the the tech stack. When it comes to cross cells ⁓ and upsells, we’re typically leaning on rebuy as as our tool of choice. ⁓ we ⁓ we’ve used it successfully with ⁓ you know, three of our label projects ⁓ at this point with Temporary Residence, with Sacred Bones, and with Polyvinyl. All have had great lifts with it. and that’s for Post purchase as well.

speaker-1: Well, no, I mean ⁓ so you’ve got the you’ve got the cross sell and the upsell happening on site in the experience. I know the answer to this, but I’m gonna ask it anyway. Are you also doing that in email, in SMS, whatever other way you’re, you know, sending a postcard afterwards?

speaker-0: The interesting thing w with that is that like fear is probably the wrong word, but there there is hesitation in the music industry to do too much marketing sometimes. I know that it doesn’t feel like that when it comes to the the big in the big players, the the majors. ⁓ but when it comes to independent labels, ⁓ there’s still a lot of fear in capturing a phone number. and and what to do with that. And I think it’s because people are are more honest w about how they feel when they get asked for their phone number and and they they’re afraid then to like turn that around to someone else. But as we all know, like it’s effective and it works and ⁓ and it it’s a it’s a tool that we like to try to layer into these projects of like don’t just capture email, capture more of that data and use that data and exactly what you’re saying, like use it to ⁓ to email them to to make sure that you’re getting abandoned cart flows going out to them and and using it for the for their phones. Pushing somebody that l loves a particular artist a a a no a SMS message to their phone that the new album’s gonna drop tomorrow is a huge win, or hey, this just went live. ⁓ so there’s these tools that that we can use ⁓ just out of the box very easily ⁓ that that turn directly into conversions that ⁓ are are kind of missed opportunities otherwise.

speaker-1: Absolutely. And we’re obviously speaking from like a e-commerce, ⁓ like a owned experience, a Shopify store perspective here. But I actually know the other perspective as well of being in a touring band and working with touring bands. I mean friends still with with these touring bands. We’ve got a mutual friend that has another agency that takes all of that data when people do opt in. They do give that phone number, they do give that ⁓ that ⁓ you know, you’re they are allowing remarketing. Builds insane Funnels for these musicians to talk directly to their fans. And I mean, how often are you like, I didn’t know they were in town? It’s 2026. Why didn’t I get an ad? Why didn’t I get an email? Why didn’t I get a text? I’ve been to their last seven shows. How did I miss that show? Yeah. These days, like when people are opting into those things, you can help then push that tour and get people in real life to events. You can help. obviously push the album release and the new merch releases, but that that other step, which is the why why this is so much fun, is because we’re all passionate about these things is usually because there’s a live component of like we want to see them live to enjoy the thing we enjoy. ⁓ and so when people do opt into that marketing stuff and it’s used the right way, it just makes the lot it it gets more butts in seats and it allows them to sustain their career to it it’s a it’s a perpetuating cycle. Now that they’re s their tour is successful, they can make another album and they can just keep doing it and you can keep enjoying what you like.

speaker-0: Yeah, you’re absolutely right about that. I think it it it matters so much to every facet of this. and again, like when when used properly, this is the thing that connects and and the the the thread ⁓ b between the artists and the fans ⁓ and and the labels kind of can’t hold that power ⁓ and and use it wisely. ⁓ and yeah, I I I think that it it is the the piece of the puzzle that is just like missing across the board.

speaker-1: I mean, very top of mind now, and this even when this comes out, it’s gonna be within the last couple of months, there were changes with how streaming works for debuting songs for upcoming releases and how you need a fan club to preview those preview those songs. I know that you and I both have another friend that owns a music app, ⁓ that’s very much at the forefront of that. Like there’s just so much cool stuff that you can do on Shopify as an artist or a label that I am so jealous that you have found people that will allow you to do those things. ⁓ but yeah, you could there’s just so much opportunity.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I I think the industry’s growing up, right? ⁓ and I as we talked about at the beginning of this, like it is now a thirty billion dollar industry and the indies are themselves scaling up and they are ⁓ going through rounds of acquisitions and and and whatever else, just like any other D to C brand. so it’s absolutely the type of thing where it’s just the the infrastructure is slowly but surely getting built into this as as a as a new surface and and as a as a tool and as a channel ⁓ that they can actually use and rely on and not have to be so reliant on third parties where they’re kind of renting their own data ⁓ and maybe get it back, maybe remember to go download that spreadsheet of emails, ⁓ but have like no real context otherwise. ⁓ I think that that’s ⁓ that’s kind of like a relic of the past. And ⁓ I I hope that the the people that we’re working with and the labels in general ⁓ are are able to kind of make this bridge this gap and and start using that data wisely.

speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I think you might have just answered that a little bit, but I’m gonna ask it point blank once again to to really drive home this point of like what you should be doing. If I’m listening to this and I wanna start a label, I maybe I even started a label and I’ve got I put out some releases or I’m a young artist or even a little bit more of a mature sure artist, and it’s like my career. If I’m like, hey, this resonates with me, I wanna take more ownership of all this stuff and I wanna start thinking like a direct to consumer brand and not just a musician with a dot com or a label with a web store, you know, what are the first things I should be doing and taking ownership of and thinking about?

speaker-0: Email on SMS, absolutely. understanding that the that you have loyal customers and loyal fans, even if you are starting out, like that is something that you can start building now, is like what does loyalty look like? ⁓ I think like being able to offer people bundles and cross cells, you need just plain and simply need to think like a DDC operator. And I think it’s less about probably how do I start a record label and more about How do I make a successful D to C brand? ⁓ is is kind of the thinking behind it all.

speaker-1: Yeah. And I’ll take that one step further. Is we’re saying this online, but the cool throughput of this is those live shows. And the successful brands are obviously everyone’s tapping card these days. You want to get through the line, but you need to have a sign up right then and there to ask people for their credit card or their email. I’m not their credit card, but their email or their phone number to get that back into your system to talk to them again later or retarget them through one of these social media advertising things. Like getting that first party data from an event where someone actually got off their couch, got on the subway or in their car and went and saw you in a stinky place, you need that person’s contact information to to sell them more stuff, essentially. Yeah.

speaker-0: I mean, ⁓ talking from my own touring days, which i it’s been a while at this point, but the you know, it used to be that you had your sign up sheet on the t on your merch table, right? And you would hope that people would put their email down and then you would hope that like, yeah, maybe next show we’ll we’ll make sure to email these people. But ⁓ there’s so much more that you can do with that information now than you than you could ten years ago. ⁓ and being able to like put it into the right database and understand that that is like your advertising channel, that is your resale channel, that is every little be piece of it ⁓ is is the information that you need to have. And these are your customers. They’re not just your fans. They are your customers and and ⁓ they are they are loyal and it it’s an engaged audience that ⁓ you know you need to hold tight because D D C brands would absolutely kill for for that type of loyalty.

speaker-1: Yeah. Absolutely. Ben, I can’t thank you enough for coming on and and chatting about this. And it’s definitely made me remember a lot of emotions about being in this space. ⁓ a lot of good, you know, some bad, but you know, we all onward and upward. ⁓ it you know, if I am picking up what you’re putting down and I want to get a hold of you, where should I go? What should I do?

speaker-0: Absolutely. So ⁓ easy to f be found at softlimit.com. ⁓ and we also have a ⁓ kind of a a playbook and white paper that I co-wrote with ⁓ Martina England. ⁓ that’s at music.softlimit.com. And then ⁓ additionally, we’re going to be hosting a panel ⁓ along with Shopify and merge records at ⁓ Mondo NYC on October thirteenth.

speaker-1: Awesome. This will be out right before then. Ben, thank you so much.

speaker-0: Thank you. See you chase.