00:00.391 –> 00:16.627
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s an ongoing challenge for us to think about how we maintain the focus on what is the core of what the VNR is and that’s community and keep that community healthy and growing and connected while allowing the e-commerce to lay on.

00:17.407 –> 00:19.770
[SPEAKER_00]: Once you have that community in place,

00:20.370 –> 00:23.771
[SPEAKER_00]: Then the business piece is in many ways easier, right?

00:23.851 –> 00:30.434
[SPEAKER_00]: The really hard part is finding the right audience and connecting with them and having that ongoing relationship.

00:33.155 –> 00:35.515
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

00:36.096 –> 00:40.157
[SPEAKER_01]: Air to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

00:40.677 –> 00:48.480
[SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

00:51.813 –> 00:53.134
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome.

00:53.154 –> 00:54.275
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s great to have you here.

00:54.375 –> 00:58.038
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to list one of our inspiring guests.

00:58.398 –> 01:02.562
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we’re getting in touch with someone who was last on the show five years ago.

01:02.602 –> 01:06.185
[SPEAKER_02]: It is now doing a very different role to what they were doing then.

01:06.585 –> 01:08.707
[SPEAKER_02]: We’re getting into the world of digital products.

01:08.947 –> 01:11.290
[SPEAKER_02]: and deep into the world of community as well.

01:11.350 –> 01:12.512
[SPEAKER_02]: So we’re talking a lot about that.

01:13.313 –> 01:22.165
[SPEAKER_02]: There’s a lot about biobehavior, community behavior, elements of goals, values, lots of good stuff in this one and some lovely top tips that you’re not going to want to miss.

01:22.266 –> 01:23.848
[SPEAKER_02]: So make sure you listen to the end.

01:29.683 –> 01:31.744
[SPEAKER_02]: And now to introduce our special guest.

01:32.205 –> 01:36.567
[SPEAKER_02]: Leighett Carpool Goethe is the Chief Revenue Officer at Deviant Art.

01:37.028 –> 01:43.872
[SPEAKER_02]: A digital art marketplace and community founded in 2000, they pivoted completely to the marketplace model in 2023.

01:43.892 –> 01:47.034
[SPEAKER_02]: And in 2025, had over 265,000 buyers, spending £23 million via their platform.

01:47.134 –> 01:47.554
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Leighett.

01:54.338 –> 01:55.358
[SPEAKER_02]: Chloe, how are you?

01:55.958 –> 02:02.740
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m very good and it’s great to have you back on the show again for the first time in what I think is five years.

02:02.880 –> 02:05.501
[SPEAKER_00]: So how have the last five years been?

02:06.301 –> 02:09.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, now it sounds like a really long time but it’s been great.

02:09.802 –> 02:11.122
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we last met.

02:11.622 –> 02:13.583
[SPEAKER_00]: I was doing e-commerce at Wix.

02:14.263 –> 02:19.764
[SPEAKER_00]: So these days, managing the business at DeviantArt, it’s been an incredible

02:23.345 –> 02:24.566
[SPEAKER_00]: so excited to be here.

02:24.586 –> 02:33.430
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it’s quite, I mean, obviously still in e-commerce, but a very different role to what you are doing, doing before, and I can tell from how you’re smiling, how much you’re enjoying it.

02:33.550 –> 02:37.212
[SPEAKER_02]: So let’s let everyone in on what is happening at deviant art.

02:37.392 –> 02:37.652
[SPEAKER_02]: What?

02:38.893 –> 02:40.094
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the product?

02:40.114 –> 02:45.657
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you’ve got, you know, normally I’m talking to people with physical products, they design, you know, they manufacture themselves.

02:45.677 –> 02:46.597
[SPEAKER_02]: You’re products quite different.

02:46.617 –> 02:48.378
[SPEAKER_02]: So what’s the product on deviant art?

02:49.071 –> 02:49.451
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

02:49.611 –> 02:53.353
[SPEAKER_00]: So David and Art at our core is actually a community.

02:54.334 –> 02:57.555
[SPEAKER_00]: We are the world’s largest online art community.

02:58.156 –> 03:01.097
[SPEAKER_00]: Just celebrated our 26th birthday.

03:01.197 –> 03:03.438
[SPEAKER_00]: So we were founded back in 2000.

03:04.539 –> 03:08.501
[SPEAKER_00]: Today we have over 110 million registered users.

03:13.744 –> 03:19.303
[SPEAKER_00]: So really a massive, massive network of creators and art lovers that come together.

03:20.511 –> 03:29.193
[SPEAKER_00]: And over the past quarter century, David and Art has established itself really as a home for artists and art lovers.

03:30.013 –> 03:47.956
[SPEAKER_00]: And it’s always been what set us apart, but I think the part that is new is that in recent years, we’ve really been building in more tools for artists to make a living on the platform and transitioning from not only being a community, to being a true, creator economy,

03:49.057 –> 03:58.727
[SPEAKER_00]: where we allow people not only to come and share their work and connect with their communities, but also to transact and support financially creators that they love.

03:59.692 –> 04:03.654
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, it’s made this incredible flywheel of growth.

04:03.754 –> 04:15.298
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a network is always different than just, you know, kind of a straight funnel e-commerce and adding into that the element of art, which, you know, I just love.

04:15.338 –> 04:20.540
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, it’s bringing all the passions together into a single world.

04:21.319 –> 04:28.302
[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect some people will still be thinking, oh, so you had like 20 years of community building up before you monetize.

04:28.322 –> 04:29.823
[SPEAKER_02]: That must have made it super easy.

04:30.163 –> 04:36.946
[SPEAKER_02]: Presumably, it was actually made it quite hard to change the game within the platform.

04:37.826 –> 04:55.443
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I think it’s an ongoing challenge for us to think about how we maintain the focus on what is the core of what the event art is and that’s community and keep that community healthy and growing and connected while allowing the e-commerce to layer on.

04:56.043 –> 05:01.349
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think it’s probably the opposite way round that a lot of other companies end up doing it.

05:01.369 –> 05:02.750
[SPEAKER_00]: I think many people start with.

05:03.110 –> 05:09.416
[SPEAKER_00]: the business piece and then they kind of get to a point of growth where they’re like oh we really need to layer in community.

05:09.936 –> 05:24.749
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know the challenges that other way around for us but I think that what we found and this is true I think for many e-commerce businesses that do manage to establish their community is that once you have that community in place

05:25.369 –> 05:29.032
[SPEAKER_00]: then the business piece is in many ways easier, right?

05:29.112 –> 05:35.717
[SPEAKER_00]: The really hard part is finding the right audience and connecting with them and having that ongoing relationship.

05:36.318 –> 05:40.961
[SPEAKER_00]: So I’m not saying it was easy to build, but you know, we came at it the other way around.

05:41.807 –> 05:58.573
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose the fact that your goals as deviant are and your community’s goals for the most part align, because the way you’ve built the monetization structure is you make money when they make money, and most artists do want to sell their goods.

05:58.593 –> 06:05.496
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you make the selling easier for them and help themselves, then you win and they win, which must, you know, it’s not like you’ve built a community and now you’re trying to sell them.

06:08.867 –> 06:10.068
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, absolutely.

06:10.108 –> 06:14.110
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will say it’s not that Dave and I didn’t do other things in the past.

06:14.331 –> 06:18.974
[SPEAKER_00]: So for many years, Dave and I had programmatic ads running on the platform.

06:19.574 –> 06:28.420
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was in 2023 that we decided it was pretty bold decision for us as a platform and a business that we were going to completely remove that from the platform.

06:29.041 –> 06:32.844
[SPEAKER_00]: And focus instead, the business around artist success.

06:33.768 –> 06:49.119
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, instead of promoting advertisers, we decided to use all of our real estate just to promote the creators themselves, you know, and not have them, and there are compete with clicks on ads that were essentially driving traffic away from them.

06:49.640 –> 06:54.103
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, today, Devon Art only makes money if our artists make money.

06:54.723 –> 07:00.588
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for us, it is being incredible to see that it’s not only a far better business model for us,

07:01.168 –> 07:07.976
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a far more rewarding mission and definitely one that I’m much happier to be helping to grow.

07:08.837 –> 07:15.525
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are the products that your creators and your artists are creating?

07:15.605 –> 07:16.847
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it all digital art?

07:16.867 –> 07:18.408
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there some physical art as well?

07:18.488 –> 07:21.212
[SPEAKER_02]: Or is this digital art exclusively?

07:22.135 –> 07:28.020
[SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, deviant art has been based on digital art from the get go.

07:28.061 –> 07:32.665
[SPEAKER_00]: So the majority of our creators and the art on the platform is digital art.

07:33.245 –> 07:42.073
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have such a board spectrum, and we’re very proud and always have been to be accepting of all creators and all types of art.

07:42.974 –> 07:50.039
[SPEAKER_00]: When we first introduced the monetization on the platform, we started with digital options for monetization.

07:50.540 –> 07:58.986
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a suite today, everything from premium galleries, premium downloads, subscriptions to creators.

07:59.106 –> 08:06.312
[SPEAKER_00]: So a creator can offer ongoing access to either behind the scenes, special limited

08:11.195 –> 08:14.898
[SPEAKER_00]: We launched a new product called exclusives a couple of years ago.

08:15.358 –> 08:18.500
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s essentially digital collectibles on platform.

08:18.980 –> 08:22.823
[SPEAKER_00]: So that also allows a resale model for creators.

08:22.903 –> 08:28.086
[SPEAKER_00]: So when a buyer buys the collectible, they become the owner on deviant art.

08:28.126 –> 08:33.250
[SPEAKER_00]: But then if they put that up for sale in the secondary market, the original artist will earn

08:33.710 –> 08:36.472
[SPEAKER_00]: royalty on every additional sale after that.

08:36.632 –> 08:42.955
[SPEAKER_00]: So it gives creators a way to continue to earn from their art over time.

08:44.156 –> 08:50.659
[SPEAKER_00]: But more recently we have started to offer physical ways for creators to sell their work as well.

08:51.279 –> 08:54.101
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a product called Arts and Crafts.

08:54.281 –> 08:56.242
[SPEAKER_00]: That is for creators who literally

09:02.645 –> 09:10.533
[SPEAKER_00]: paintings to create crocheted work or any other craft, the jewelry clothing that artists want to offer.

09:10.953 –> 09:25.167
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we are just as we’re speaking, so I’m not sure by the time this is out, we’ll probably be live about to launch our first print on demand solution for creators to be able to sell merch of their art.

09:25.908 –> 09:43.534
[SPEAKER_00]: And that one I think allows digital creators to take their first steps into physical commerce without having to take the heavy load of fulfillment and shipping onto themselves, but does allow them to put their art out in a physical way into the world.

09:43.674 –> 09:50.677
[SPEAKER_00]: And many of their fans do want to own physical pieces of their work and be able to display them.

09:51.813 –> 10:04.476
[SPEAKER_02]: I love how, you know, you’re slowly adding every possible option for your, your artists to make money and the way in which it just keeps everything within the community.

10:04.896 –> 10:13.658
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you’re saying about, you used to have the programmatic ads, but they were a fighting for airspace with our members, but they were also sending people somewhere else.

10:15.578 –> 10:18.440
[SPEAKER_02]: And it’s like, well, if we want to community, we want to keep it in the community.

10:18.460 –> 10:25.145
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can put the shops in there and we can put the marketplace in there and we can put the physical product all within there.

10:25.206 –> 10:27.127
[SPEAKER_02]: Then it’s going to make those artists lives.

10:27.727 –> 10:40.397
[SPEAKER_02]: So I’m going to thought artists are one of those business person categories where the least time they have to spend dealing with technology and admin, the better as well.

10:40.417 –> 10:42.859
[SPEAKER_02]: So they’re quite a happy audience to have

10:44.713 –> 10:45.654
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, absolutely.

10:45.874 –> 10:55.639
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, full time artists and creators and especially independent creators, they want to spend their time on the art on creating.

10:56.160 –> 11:03.124
[SPEAKER_00]: I think learning how to run a business is often just an necessity in order for them to be able to make a living.

11:03.604 –> 11:06.986
[SPEAKER_00]: So we definitely aimed to provide them as many tools as possible.

11:07.286 –> 11:08.787
[SPEAKER_00]: possible on platform.

11:08.867 –> 11:11.469
[SPEAKER_00]: Take as much of the load that we can off of them.

11:11.549 –> 11:28.359
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, at the end of the day, it’s still going to be up to them to use those tools wisely, but definitely putting it in a much more accessible way for them in a single place and also allowing them, I think, over time to kind of lay or on to what they’re building.

11:28.439 –> 11:30.721
[SPEAKER_00]: So whether, you know, you come to deed and art first,

11:31.220 –> 11:39.663
[SPEAKER_00]: to build that your own community to get that audience up and running choose one of the products that works for the art that you create to start selling.

11:40.383 –> 11:49.746
[SPEAKER_00]: We do start seeing over time that artists tend to expand beyond just a single type of monetization line on DVNR.

11:49.847 –> 11:59.330
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, many of our exclusive sellers will then, I think it’s something like 98% of the top exclusive sellers will actually expand into subscriptions.

11:59.990 –> 12:00.770
[SPEAKER_00]: for their art.

12:01.490 –> 12:17.915
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that’s a really good indication of the success of the communities that they’re building because they start by offering you single purchases but then as they build app that audience who really wants to support them in an ongoing way then they’re able to also grow into a subscription model.

12:19.000 –> 12:32.087
[SPEAKER_02]: I like you’ve created the stairway to growth for them, so they’re going to stay on your platform because I mean that’s where their fellow is are, but it’s also, there’s no point in which which they run out of runway.

12:32.428 –> 12:35.909
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean using all the metaphors that are in runways and staircases,

12:38.911 –> 12:39.751
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s so true.

12:39.871 –> 12:46.714
[SPEAKER_00]: And for us, I think, you know, we feel bad because for many years creators did ask DeviantArt to do that.

12:46.894 –> 12:53.717
[SPEAKER_00]: That, you know, they were coming to DeviantArt even before we offered monetization to build their communities and their audience.

12:53.777 –> 12:54.757
[SPEAKER_00]: And then essentially,

12:55.173 –> 12:59.955
[SPEAKER_00]: They had to send their audience elsewhere if they wanted to monetize.

12:59.975 –> 13:07.099
[SPEAKER_00]: They would have to link off-site to some other website or some other platform and then try and get you to sign up there and support them.

13:07.719 –> 13:18.685
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think in that sense, it allows them to keep their business where their community is, which for everyone is a far more natural way to connect and support.

13:19.625 –> 13:20.226
[SPEAKER_02]: definitely.

13:20.246 –> 13:27.013
[SPEAKER_02]: So over the last few years, you’ve obviously been building up active buyers on the platform, not just the creators.

13:27.935 –> 13:31.338
[SPEAKER_02]: How have you found them to behave?

13:31.358 –> 13:31.699
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you’ve

13:35.623 –> 13:36.764
[SPEAKER_02]: physical product e-commerce.

13:36.784 –> 13:45.990
[SPEAKER_02]: If you found they behave in a similar way to a normal physical product store or the nuances with the community element within that.

13:46.150 –> 13:47.792
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think there are nuances.

13:48.412 –> 13:52.835
[SPEAKER_00]: Initial discovery happens very organically through the network itself.

13:53.075 –> 13:59.520
[SPEAKER_00]: So people who are coming to Dian art to browse art and discover creators and art that they enjoy.

14:00.100 –> 14:08.023
[SPEAKER_00]: are primarily focused on that first, and they’ll be, you know, diving in to whatever fandom or sub genre they’re interested in.

14:08.503 –> 14:13.605
[SPEAKER_00]: But then along the way, you start to see that you have the option to purchase some of these pieces.

14:14.105 –> 14:18.007
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that’s kind of a first step as a consumer on DVNR.

14:18.047 –> 14:23.209
[SPEAKER_00]: These you discover the art first, you start to support some creators, you make your first purchase.

14:23.729 –> 14:38.060
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a really similar way, we see, and I’ll go with the exclusive example, like, over 55% of first-time buyers will come back and make another purchase from that same creator that they purchased from originally.

14:38.641 –> 14:45.206
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that starts to speak to the relationships, because it’s more than just making these one-off purchases.

14:45.246 –> 14:46.687
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s really about discovering

14:49.709 –> 15:01.381
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once that relationships build, once you have opportunity within the community to interact, to see other things that the artist is up to, then you’re able to keep supporting them over time.

15:02.343 –> 15:14.070
[SPEAKER_02]: So it seems to me like the growth of deviant art as a whole is more dependent on how you enabled the creators to build those relationships, to monetize those relationships.

15:14.490 –> 15:18.072
[SPEAKER_02]: Then it is on your email marketing program.

15:18.512 –> 15:21.534
[SPEAKER_02]: Or your ads program to bring people to the site in the first place.

15:21.934 –> 15:26.937
[SPEAKER_02]: Would that be a fair assumption that the growth is all about the creators?

15:27.805 –> 15:31.067
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the growth at the end of the day is all about the community.

15:31.107 –> 15:35.991
[SPEAKER_00]: And the community exists only if we have both sides of that network, right?

15:36.011 –> 15:42.176
[SPEAKER_00]: You need the creators who want to share their work, who want to publish their work, ultimately want to monetize their work.

15:42.736 –> 15:50.562
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you also need the people who just want to come and enjoy that work, whether it’s just looking at it, participating groups, curating, collecting,

15:50.962 –> 15:54.525
[SPEAKER_00]: and eventually also purchasing an owning that aren’t.

15:55.265 –> 16:02.070
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think as a network and as a community, it’s about making sure that that wheel is continually turning.

16:02.730 –> 16:14.018
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s really not one without the other, but I think for creators to be able to maintain their business over time and really become reliant on this as a full time.

16:14.878 –> 16:25.521
[SPEAKER_00]: source of income, we definitely need to provide tools for them to be able to manage their sales, their business, and also their relationships with their sub audiences.

16:26.161 –> 16:34.983
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think their elements of it, and certainly when we look at it at the individual creator level, that are really similar to any classic e-commerce building.

16:35.383 –> 16:46.133
[SPEAKER_00]: business where you’re building relationships with your customers, you’re trying to know, you know, what you do out there, get the right people to notice you, get them to connect with you.

16:46.573 –> 16:50.697
[SPEAKER_00]: If they do make a purchase, make sure that you maintain the relationship,

16:51.357 –> 16:56.539
[SPEAKER_00]: keep them updated about what you’re doing, hopefully over time they’re going to come back and buy again.

16:56.559 –> 17:05.842
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, although the products might be different and I certainly think that the fact that it’s all digital is kind of unique to DVNR.

17:06.462 –> 17:13.044
[SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, at its core, I think it’s very, very similar in many ways to classic e-commerce.

17:14.265 –> 17:21.227
[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, it’s trying to get people to buy things, which, whether you’re doing it offline online in a community and so forth.

17:21.247 –> 17:25.447
[SPEAKER_02]: There’s always those same trust building mechanisms, cause to actions and all the rest of it.

17:25.467 –> 17:28.728
[SPEAKER_02]: So it makes sense that it would be, be not as a parallel as that.

17:29.348 –> 17:32.789
[SPEAKER_02]: And we’ve talked about the community and the location of the community.

17:33.109 –> 17:36.570
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do you graphically as your community is, are you a US?

17:38.084 –> 17:40.526
[SPEAKER_02]: exclusively business community, you’ve got the digital capacity.

17:40.566 –> 17:42.387
[SPEAKER_02]: So you could be completely global.

17:43.048 –> 17:49.052
[SPEAKER_02]: And do you see the same geographic profile between creators and buyers?

17:50.413 –> 17:54.956
[SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, David, I was founded in LA back in 2000.

17:55.016 –> 18:03.742
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’re originally a US company, but being an online community means that we are truly got global.

18:05.767 –> 18:07.068
[SPEAKER_00]: from all around the world.

18:07.128 –> 18:13.215
[SPEAKER_00]: We have creators and art lovers from everywhere, but up until this year.

18:13.395 –> 18:17.880
[SPEAKER_00]: So for 25 years, Debian art was only in English.

18:18.740 –> 18:26.628
[SPEAKER_00]: And just this year, we have started making real steps towards globalization of the platform.

18:27.269 –> 18:33.614
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that we can welcome way more members into the community once we do that.

18:33.695 –> 18:39.540
[SPEAKER_00]: We have actually localized the platform into quite a few languages already.

18:39.700 –> 18:46.746
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have German and French and Spanish Dutch and Portuguese already out.

18:47.286 –> 18:52.368
[SPEAKER_00]: we’re making our way towards Japanese and some more on the list after that.

18:53.008 –> 19:04.893
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’re definitely putting in effort to help localize the platform, introduce it to more members around the world, and also just make it feel more like a home for them.

19:05.033 –> 19:05.193
[SPEAKER_00]: So

19:05.653 –> 19:12.078
[SPEAKER_00]: I think at the end of the day, so many of our users come to DVNART and then stay on the platform for years.

19:12.759 –> 19:17.723
[SPEAKER_00]: And you want that to feel the most natural and the most comfortable that we can for you.

19:18.443 –> 19:24.228
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, it’s a way for us to help users connect with people from all around the world.

19:24.308 –> 19:34.937
[SPEAKER_00]: If they don’t have to be the ones worrying about how the content is going to be translated and how the person on the other side is going to be able to understand what they’re reading or looking at.

19:35.677 –> 19:39.619
[SPEAKER_00]: So that, for us, is really the next stage of growth there.

19:39.719 –> 19:50.104
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s not that we weren’t global already or didn’t have a global user base, but I think that we can get way, way better at supporting them than we have until now.

19:50.844 –> 20:00.869
[SPEAKER_02]: And is that, I mean, my assumption would be that’s partly been enabled by the world of AI, which enables kind of on the fly translation and automatic translation,

20:02.077 –> 20:24.322
[SPEAKER_02]: But you’re also a very large company, so I imagine there’s possibly some human element going in there as well, hence the rollout wasn’t to 180 countries overnight, so it am I right there is this like an AI plus human play on the translations right we’re definitely using a lot of technology to help support that but we want to make sure that the quality is there that it feels.

20:25.142 –> 20:32.326
[SPEAKER_00]: right for DVNR, and then it also feels right for each market that we step into and organic to them.

20:32.346 –> 20:44.193
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to truly localize it’s going to be more than just translating the content at the end of the day, especially if people are building their businesses, it’s going to come down to having local payment solutions as well.

20:44.573 –> 20:46.376
[SPEAKER_00]: and local shipping solutions as well.

20:46.736 –> 20:56.771
[SPEAKER_00]: So for each market, we’re also trying to see how we support that full package to really make the platform feel like home for for those users.

20:57.713 –> 20:58.554
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think

20:59.495 –> 21:05.538
[SPEAKER_00]: all around whether it’s for us as the team that works on DeviantArt or for the community.

21:06.119 –> 21:13.183
[SPEAKER_00]: AI is introducing a lot of opportunity, a lot of questions, a lot of challenges.

21:14.023 –> 21:17.125
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s certainly interesting times around.

21:18.176 –> 21:30.940
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the most controversial areas of AI is, I’m not going to be the one of the areas of AI where there is the most controversy, I think is the in the world of arts, script writing, songs, arts, et cetera.

21:31.740 –> 21:39.003
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you allow AI generated art to be put onto the community what’s yours, the deviant art policy on that?

21:39.956 –> 21:46.764
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, it’s definitely been a very sensitive and hot topic on the platform for a while now.

21:46.964 –> 21:51.830
[SPEAKER_00]: So, maybe I’ll start with a little bit of history here about who Dven art is.

21:51.910 –> 21:53.592
[SPEAKER_00]: So, as I mentioned, we were founded in 2000.

21:54.593 –> 21:58.814
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we predate Facebook and Reddit and most social networks.

21:59.494 –> 22:07.376
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we were founded, we were founded as a home for the deviance, if you like, of the traditional artwork.

22:07.857 –> 22:09.977
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the digital creators.

22:10.177 –> 22:16.259
[SPEAKER_00]: Back in the early 2000s, there was a lot of controversy around using digital tools.

22:16.499 –> 22:20.100
[SPEAKER_00]: And digital art was not considered art.

22:20.940 –> 22:31.428
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was how we started, and since then, for deviant art, we’ve always pided ourselves on the full range that our creators put out in terms of their art.

22:31.929 –> 22:44.278
[SPEAKER_00]: And you’ll find everything on deviant art, from like classic pillars of digital creativity, photography, illustration, design, as well as more of the niche corners of the art world, things like

22:48.321 –> 22:54.504
[SPEAKER_00]: So while technology might change over time, our mission is deviant art does not.

22:55.124 –> 22:59.086
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with AI, we’re kind of applying that very same approach.

22:59.426 –> 23:11.351
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the past few years, for us, it is felt very reminiscent of the early days of deviant art and what those original, you know, digital pioneers face back then.

23:12.403 –> 23:20.330
[SPEAKER_00]: So for us, we’re not here to Gate Key Bart, but we do want to foster innovation and creators of all kinds.

23:21.131 –> 23:23.053
[SPEAKER_00]: So we see how AI is…

23:25.913 –> 23:30.216
[SPEAKER_00]: fundamentally shifting so many landscapes, including the creative landscape.

23:30.816 –> 23:34.739
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not that every creator is adopting AI by any means.

23:35.279 –> 23:51.970
[SPEAKER_00]: But for those who do, it’s a very powerful tool to help them bridge gaps between vision, and final execution, it allows them to prototype ideas to experiment with new styles, and to do that in a way that a new speed

23:55.440 –> 24:12.225
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have taken a practical approach, I’ll say, when it comes to AI and we definitely have policies and tagging systems where we do ask creators if they’re using AI to clearly tag their work as being such created using AI tools.

24:12.885 –> 24:17.967
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that gives us the data that we need to be clear about the provenance of the art.

24:18.607 –> 24:32.373
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we’ve also added on additional capabilities and tools on the platform so that users can also decide if they want to see AIR to or not and if you don’t want to see it, you can, you know, suppress it and then you don’t have to.

24:33.136 –> 24:57.473
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think for us, it’s about giving people all the options, supporting creators of all walks of life, regardless of the tools that they use, trying to be as transparent as possible about, you know, how people create and what you’re looking at, and then kind of leaving it up to the community to decide for themselves where they want to end up within that spectrum.

24:58.753 –> 25:13.941
[SPEAKER_02]: So it strikes me, you know, given the DNA of the business, as you’ve described it, you know, and how the business was found, it will be really weird if you guys have gone and gone near, no AI content on the platform, it would have been a completely anti-values maneuver.

25:13.981 –> 25:24.046
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I’d totally get why you’ve gone in on there, but then if you’ve got the tagging and everything and the options and the filtering, then the community can do what they want to do, but you can also then monitor it.

25:24.066 –> 25:25.186
[SPEAKER_02]: So it makes a lot of sense.

25:25.226 –> 25:27.127
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, from the history of the business

25:28.749 –> 25:34.787
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously globalization is big on your list for the coming years, what else is next for Deviantart?

25:35.817 –> 25:41.120
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think for us, it’s kind of those three tracks that we’re focused on for the next one.

25:41.380 –> 25:50.666
[SPEAKER_00]: One, maintaining the health of the community, always ensuring that that core of deviant art remains strong and at the essence of everything that we do.

25:51.386 –> 26:00.432
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of globalization, continuing to expand there and going deeper and deeper into different languages and different geos and what they need to support them.

26:01.242 –> 26:14.609
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in terms of our professional creators, I think that there’s still a lot of room for us to grow in terms of tools that they need to manage their content, manage their business, and themselves grow over time.

26:17.891 –> 26:22.654
[SPEAKER_01]: E-commerce most of the land is supported by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

26:22.774 –> 26:24.135
[SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

26:30.752 –> 26:32.933
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s time for the top tips round.

26:35.573 –> 26:41.255
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I love this section because me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

26:41.315 –> 26:43.515
[SPEAKER_02]: They’re at, are you ready for the top tips?

26:44.736 –> 26:47.216
[SPEAKER_02]: I’ll try, excellent.

26:47.516 –> 26:51.317
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can ask, okay, the book top tip.

26:51.397 –> 26:57.979
[SPEAKER_02]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

26:58.971 –> 27:06.755
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I’m going to go with something that is in the spirit of deviant art, which is this combination of community and building a business.

27:07.395 –> 27:09.856
[SPEAKER_00]: So I say there’s a book called Tribes.

27:09.916 –> 27:12.037
[SPEAKER_00]: We need you to lead us by Seth Golden.

27:12.718 –> 27:22.082
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a book that talks about how anyone can use the internet to connect people to share an idea that you’re passionate about, to lead a movement.

27:22.122 –> 27:27.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Really about how technology and the power of the internet removes these old barriers.

27:28.105 –> 27:34.890
[SPEAKER_00]: and small groups can turn into big movements and how you don’t need permission to lead.

27:34.950 –> 27:39.293
[SPEAKER_00]: You just, you know, you need some passion and some courage and then it can happen.

27:40.194 –> 27:41.174
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, great recommend it.

27:41.194 –> 27:46.958
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m not sure we’ve had that one recommended before, but we should have more Seth Gode in books recommended on this podcast.

27:46.998 –> 27:49.100
[SPEAKER_02]: I must find a way to fix that.

27:49.600 –> 27:56.505
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, the traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either price above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves.

27:57.477 –> 28:04.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I’ll say something, I don’t have to say straight forward or not, but I would say make great content.

28:04.362 –> 28:16.371
[SPEAKER_00]: And by great content, I mean, focus on things that you love and that represent you, whether it’s you as a creator, you as a brand or a business, or just you as an individual.

28:16.391 –> 28:23.836
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn’t matter if it’s a product, a piece of art, a photograph, a blog, you know, even

28:26.118 –> 28:44.835
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, if your content is good and you choose the right platform on the web to put it out on, it’s going to not only get you traffic, but it’s going to get you traffic from people who you want to retry with people who the same thing you’re passionate about, that same idea is resonating with them.

28:45.903 –> 28:46.904
[SPEAKER_02]: totally agree.

28:47.204 –> 28:50.286
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m very fitting for deviant art and your community.

28:50.346 –> 28:51.327
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m sure as well.

28:51.907 –> 29:02.595
[SPEAKER_02]: The tool, top tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug in a phone up or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool that you use that makes you and your team a more efficient from day to day?

29:03.562 –> 29:06.764
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so maybe I will focus on our team here for a second.

29:06.784 –> 29:10.906
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re also a very remote team all around the world.

29:11.167 –> 29:18.891
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say for us, the two critical tools that we use are Zoom and Slack.

29:19.051 –> 29:23.314
[SPEAKER_00]: So at their core, really fundamentally, they’re both just communication tools.

29:24.034 –> 29:27.737
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that’s what you need to focus on as a team.

29:27.857 –> 29:35.743
[SPEAKER_00]: So I’m a big believer in sharing and communicating as much as possible trying to have us all moving in the same direction.

29:35.763 –> 29:40.887
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn’t mean that we always have to agree, but we should have the conversation.

29:41.848 –> 29:42.788
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally agree.

29:43.469 –> 29:45.010
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the carbon top tip.

29:45.030 –> 29:48.733
[SPEAKER_02]: What’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

29:49.881 –> 29:53.704
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I’ll focus on maybe the art side of things.

29:53.804 –> 30:03.110
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, for us, when we think about art, we’re always encouraging people to explore digital alternatives for displaying their art.

30:03.290 –> 30:09.915
[SPEAKER_00]: So, whether it’s in your home or your workspace, if you think about a digital frame on which you can display,

30:10.395 –> 30:11.955
[SPEAKER_00]: digital art that you own.

30:11.975 –> 30:18.637
[SPEAKER_00]: Here I’ll do a shameless plug for even art if you don’t already own some beautiful digital art.

30:18.697 –> 30:23.698
[SPEAKER_00]: We have plenty for you to browse and shop in our beautiful marketplace.

30:24.298 –> 30:38.182
[SPEAKER_00]: But even for things like events and exhibitions, if you just use a screen, it’s so easy to show a lot of artwork and you can reuse that so easily without having to reprint and have all that

30:40.759 –> 30:42.001
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that’s a really good point.

30:42.041 –> 30:42.662
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that one.

30:42.842 –> 30:43.343
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

30:44.325 –> 30:47.410
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Leah, it’s very nearly time to say goodbye.

30:47.510 –> 30:55.082
[SPEAKER_02]: So if people want to get in contact with you and want to go and browse and join the community at deviant art, how do they do those things?

30:56.303 –> 31:04.133
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s honestly just go to dvnart, wherever you can go to dvnart.com and find us there.

31:04.153 –> 31:11.182
[SPEAKER_00]: I’m very easy to find on dvnart or you can find us on any social platform dvnart.

31:11.883 –> 31:14.967
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re all there, eager to meet and talk.

31:16.382 –> 31:20.586
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it, normally we get like the LinkedIn shout-up, but no, don’t find Leia to link them.

31:20.606 –> 31:23.328
[SPEAKER_02]: Finally, on Deviant, are in the community.

31:23.348 –> 31:25.129
[SPEAKER_02]: I don’t know, that’s the best place.

31:25.750 –> 31:27.031
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

31:27.732 –> 31:29.653
[SPEAKER_02]: Leia, thank you so much for coming on the show.

31:29.673 –> 31:32.756
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s been great catching up with you again, and what a fascinating business.

31:32.776 –> 31:34.237
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for telling us all about it.

31:34.758 –> 31:36.139
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

31:41.833 –> 31:59.500
[SPEAKER_02]: what fascinating, fascinating business and how interesting to learn how a community has turned itself into an e-commerce store and slash marketplace, which I think that we can take a lot from in terms of how to build more community within

32:00.700 –> 32:15.854
[SPEAKER_02]: our own business is not our own e-commerce stores and that piece about the the aligned goals and everything being aligned back to the values of the original founding the business I think makes so much sense of really really lots to think about that and really lovely to catch up with Lea again as well.

32:16.735 –> 32:24.823
[SPEAKER_02]: and get your hands on our notes from this episode, including those top tips and links to what the things we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

32:25.384 –> 32:37.396
[SPEAKER_02]: You can also use our direct episode short links, just put ECMP.info for the number of the episode into the URL bar and you’ll go straight to the right page on the site and why not sign up to our email list when you’re there.

32:38.177 –> 32:46.366
[SPEAKER_02]: If you like this episode, then I would recommend checking out episode 469, where we are again in the digital products space.

32:46.486 –> 32:53.373
[SPEAKER_02]: This time with Bartosk from G2A, which is the world’s largest digital entertainment marketplace.

32:53.673 –> 32:59.159
[SPEAKER_02]: So another fascinating one to get your e-commerce brain going around the corners, I suppose.

32:59.940 –> 33:01.802
[SPEAKER_02]: So four, six, nine is that one.

33:02.222 –> 33:09.128
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to hear from more big businesses then head to ECMP.info4s, I should big for all our big business episodes.

33:09.829 –> 33:14.092
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for tuning to this and every episode that you do of the e-commerce mass plan podcast.

33:14.473 –> 33:26.703
[SPEAKER_02]: I bring you new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including encouraging both businesses and consumers to make more sustainable buying decisions.

33:27.684 –> 33:33.468
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if you know someone they show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

33:33.488 –> 33:34.709
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you have a great week.

33:35.149 –> 33:36.951
[SPEAKER_02]: Don’t forget to keep optimizing.