00:00.149 –> 00:03.935
[SPEAKER_00]: When you start a business, a lot of things just in general go wrong, right?

00:03.955 –> 00:26.730
[SPEAKER_02]: So by eliminating mistakes that are being made, I think that saves you about 50% of the time.

00:29.782 –> 00:32.124
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

00:32.144 –> 00:35.928
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

00:36.729 –> 00:43.456
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to start the show occasionally with a little shout out to the listeners who are kind enough to take the time to post a review of the show.

00:43.696 –> 00:45.338
[SPEAKER_01]: And I’ve got one of those for you today.

00:45.378 –> 00:55.688
[SPEAKER_01]: Huge thanks to drummer Boyd, whoever you may be, for putting a lovely review of us on Apple Podcasts.

00:55.668 –> 00:58.613
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you’ve said we are in insightful podcasts.

00:58.673 –> 01:03.500
[SPEAKER_01]: Great listen and always cover some super interesting topics as a growth lead at a D to C brand.

01:04.041 –> 01:06.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Chloe is a knowledgeable and friendly host.

01:06.344 –> 01:09.089
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, drummer Boyd, really appreciated.

01:09.610 –> 01:20.967
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, if you would like a shout out at the start of an episode, then head to ECMP.info4sashreview to find out how to leave us a review and maybe I’ll be reading out your review next time.

01:20.947 –> 01:27.956
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we’re doing another past guest catch up as part of our 10 years of podcasting celebrations.

01:28.696 –> 01:40.811
[SPEAKER_01]: This one is from three years ago, fairly recent, and it’s a company who make a stone paper reusable note pad who are on a very big old eco mission.

01:40.831 –> 01:48.000
[SPEAKER_01]: We don’t specifically talk about that, because we spend a lot of time talking about the products and the mission in the

01:47.980 –> 01:54.868
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we are talking about how the business has been developing since that first chat over three years ago.

01:55.548 –> 02:08.583
[SPEAKER_01]: We will be going into how they’ve gone big into B2B sales, both into physical retail and into the personalized swag and gift market in the corporate space too.

02:09.163 –> 02:16.131
[SPEAKER_01]: And I’ll be pressing rule for some nitty gritty insights into how they’re making that work,

02:16.111 –> 02:19.859
[SPEAKER_01]: and also how they go about managing their overseas sales agents.

02:20.540 –> 02:24.047
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of detail coming up for you if you’re in that arena.

02:24.428 –> 02:30.340
[SPEAKER_01]: Please listen to the end of the show so you don’t miss out on my guest’s top tips and my own take on this episode.

02:35.399 –> 02:37.722
[SPEAKER_01]: And now to introduce our special guest.

02:37.742 –> 02:47.197
[SPEAKER_01]: Rule Shotorjay is the founder of Moju, sellers of a reasonable stone paper notebooks, designed to reduce single-use paper and reforest the planet.

02:47.637 –> 02:56.430
[SPEAKER_01]: Founded in 2019, they now sell via wholesale and their Shopify store, in total sales are around 1.5 million euros a year.

02:56.751 –> 02:57.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, rule.

02:58.133 –> 02:59.415
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, good to be back.

02:59.635 –> 03:00.276
[SPEAKER_00]: Good to be back.

03:00.897 –> 03:17.033
[SPEAKER_01]: very cool to have you back on the podcast and I anyone who’s seen me at an event will have seen me diligently carrying one of your no-pads which is still getting cleaned and reused very happily so it’s very cool to have you back on the show and it’s been three years what have you been up to?

03:17.975 –> 03:41.907
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot a lot a lot so I think a few things so we kind of noticed one big thing is that from from having the the web shop and the e-commerce sales we noticed that we got more and more wholesale B2B deals so I focused shift there a bit so we do much more business to business now than just e-commerce so that’s nice

03:41.887 –> 03:45.136
[SPEAKER_00]: We rolled out in the Netherlands in a lot of retail stores.

03:45.336 –> 03:47.723
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’re in about 150 stores now.

03:47.743 –> 03:48.726
[SPEAKER_00]: So that’s also really cool.

03:49.207 –> 03:51.594
[SPEAKER_00]: So people can actually physically buy us in stores.

03:52.556 –> 03:57.550
[SPEAKER_00]: And we’re currently working on two cool new things, which is, uh,

03:57.530 –> 04:04.862
[SPEAKER_00]: developing a product for primary school kids so that they can actually start their school with one notebook and leave it with the same.

04:05.624 –> 04:11.794
[SPEAKER_00]: And lastly, we’re working on reusable packaging, the kind of this new loss coming up, the PPWR.

04:12.615 –> 04:17.824
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of companies are looking into reusable packaging now and I think our materials really good for that.

04:18.004 –> 04:23.233
[SPEAKER_00]: So with that we are developing boxes that

04:23.753 –> 04:28.244
[SPEAKER_01]: So with, I mean, we’ll drill into some of those in a minute, but we’re so many things going on.

04:28.344 –> 04:32.234
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you decide what to focus on and what to pursue?

04:32.314 –> 04:35.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I’m guessing that you’ve had a whole load of ideas other than those four.

04:36.003 –> 04:38.169
[SPEAKER_01]: So how did you decide what to pursue?

04:38.189 –> 04:41.577
[SPEAKER_01]: And then day to day, how do you decide what to focus on?

04:42.164 –> 04:46.229
[SPEAKER_00]: So all the things that you just heard are cool projects, right?

04:46.249 –> 04:49.474
[SPEAKER_00]: So but most of them are not really generating revenue net yet.

04:49.494 –> 04:50.755
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks especially the last two.

04:51.616 –> 04:57.124
[SPEAKER_00]: So by day to day, it’s just 90% focused on running the business as is.

04:57.384 –> 05:00.067
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really try to have like focus hours every morning.

05:01.129 –> 05:04.193
[SPEAKER_00]: Let’s say from 8 to 1, where I just decide to get.

05:04.213 –> 05:07.497
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s going to be like a sales hour or sales hours or.

05:07.477 –> 05:18.887
[SPEAKER_00]: Project X or Project Y and then the other projects kind of develop along the way by meeting new people meeting interesting clients whatsoever and then I just

05:18.968 –> 05:20.331
[SPEAKER_00]: Here in there, bring these things up.

05:20.551 –> 05:23.637
[SPEAKER_00]: If I feel there’s an interest, then I just keep on working on those things.

05:24.679 –> 05:38.766
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, especially for schools and boxes, we’ve been doing that for the last, like, one-half-two years now, and we just got granted a subsidy to have a bit more focus on these projects, so that we can actually invest in it and continue developing these.

05:39.556 –> 05:40.700
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of that makes so much sense.

05:40.780 –> 05:41.221
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

05:41.723 –> 05:44.491
[SPEAKER_01]: So what does the team look like now in the businesses?

05:44.531 –> 05:49.367
[SPEAKER_01]: You made these diversions away from more of the D to C cells into the B to B cells?

05:49.407 –> 05:51.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Did that make a lot of difference to the team?

05:52.145 –> 06:04.644
[SPEAKER_00]: I think last time we chatted, we actually had 10 people, we were at 4 now, so we scaled down the team and we focused a lot on optimizing inefficiency.

06:04.704 –> 06:13.678
[SPEAKER_00]: So every time someone left, we kind of sat with the team and the management like, is something that we can just pick up internally, if we can do it more efficiently.

06:13.918 –> 06:16.262
[SPEAKER_00]: So over the last three years, we kind of did that.

06:16.242 –> 06:24.430
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a part of our team were people that worked on the internationalization, which we had in our own team, on our own non-list, on our own payroll.

06:25.271 –> 06:33.920
[SPEAKER_00]: And we changed that into agents, so we still have five agents working abroad, but they work more on a commission-based rather than being in our own payroll.

06:33.940 –> 06:40.427
[SPEAKER_00]: So this still in total about 10 people working for Moju, but our core team is just four people.

06:41.352 –> 06:55.547
[SPEAKER_01]: And has that, you know, driving efficiency to lower the number of head office team has that been has that involved any AI or is it more been clearer decisions and automations and relying more on tech.

06:56.371 –> 07:02.121
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, we follow AI, but it’s that there hasn’t been the reason to be able to work with less people yet.

07:02.562 –> 07:03.924
[SPEAKER_00]: It helps here and there, right?

07:03.944 –> 07:16.726
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, we’ve been doing stuff for the last three years with it, but it’s not because we have developed tool A with AI and therefore we could not, you know, kind of like not, I’ve less people.

07:16.846 –> 07:19.290
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it’s mainly, I think,

07:20.300 –> 07:26.011
[SPEAKER_00]: When you start a business, you kind of, a lot of things just in general go wrong, right?

07:26.052 –> 07:30.380
[SPEAKER_00]: So by eliminating mistakes that are being made, I think that saves you about 50% of the time.

07:30.581 –> 07:33.246
[SPEAKER_00]: So for us, a big mom was,

07:33.412 –> 07:59.942
[SPEAKER_00]: A business requests a quote and then they go into the whole quoting process, design process production process towards our warehouse and shipping and eliminating as many mistakes as possible there, I think that’s safe too much time because the mistakes just give like a lot of double work and also so that’s one part and the other one is I think we were planting a lot of seeds everywhere, you know, like a lot of outreach everywhere and at a one point we also

08:00.260 –> 08:00.501
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

08:00.721 –> 08:04.610
[SPEAKER_00]: Looked a bit like we had a with a person that was doing just retail.

08:04.891 –> 08:15.535
[SPEAKER_00]: It was reaching out to a lot of store owners and then at one point we got a contract with a big supplier in the Netherlands and they kind of have 400 stores in the Netherlands.

08:15.515 –> 08:24.068
[SPEAKER_00]: So then we thought, okay, well, that’s maybe like enough, let’s say stores for that, then we just kind of work with them and the rest is just inbound, you know?

08:24.088 –> 08:28.234
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of like going out to stores, we just work with this supplier and then any inbound.

08:28.855 –> 08:31.920
[SPEAKER_00]: So these kind of things help us to have less people in the team.

08:32.508 –> 08:32.888
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

08:32.928 –> 08:40.256
[SPEAKER_01]: So like a mixture of strategic decisions, general business evolution and then just let’s just stop making the mistake at the beginning of the process.

08:40.276 –> 08:45.181
[SPEAKER_01]: 30 seconds at the beginning of the process can save three hours at the end of it can’t it?

08:45.261 –> 08:47.303
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that.

08:47.804 –> 08:56.592
[SPEAKER_01]: And the B to B and the retail product presumably the retail stores to them you’re selling the same product as you have on the website.

08:57.373 –> 09:01.097
[SPEAKER_01]: What’s the the B to B side of it?

09:01.077 –> 09:15.289
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you selling, you know, because I can see, I could see it could be kind of more of the retail element, they come on, they buy 2030 of whatever existing notebook, but is it more design and customization as you are just a leading to for that sector?

09:15.860 –> 09:16.341
[SPEAKER_00]: exactly.

09:16.842 –> 09:20.189
[SPEAKER_00]: So companies buy our product a lot for gifts, you know?

09:20.430 –> 09:32.215
[SPEAKER_00]: So on events for employees for relations companies want to come across as they are caring for the planet and therefore they choose I gift that’s also sustainable.

09:32.195 –> 09:52.363
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we’ve done is we are really doing that when we spoke last time what we’ve optimized that is We can add the liver your own notebook which you’re on cover within five working days, so then you have your fully customized on notebook within a few working days, so You just send us the design and we make it for you and then you can hand them out to whoever

09:52.343 –> 09:53.706
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, companies love that.

09:53.726 –> 09:59.861
[SPEAKER_00]: So to kind of have their branding on a product that just lasts very long, so then the brand is seen for a very long time.

09:59.921 –> 10:01.705
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, it’s a sustainable product.

10:01.725 –> 10:07.078
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you give it to someone, then you come across as a company that cares.

10:07.733 –> 10:10.037
[SPEAKER_01]: And it’s still got the novelty factor, hasn’t it?

10:10.057 –> 10:14.665
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I’ve been ever since our last call, our last recording for the podcast.

10:14.685 –> 10:17.990
[SPEAKER_01]: I’ve been keeping my eye out for more you notebooks in the wild, you know?

10:18.331 –> 10:22.157
[SPEAKER_01]: And I’d go to some of the big trade shows in the UK and I haven’t yet seen one.

10:22.197 –> 10:28.828
[SPEAKER_01]: So there’s, but there’s the standard notebook everywhere and there’s the water bottles or everywhere, you know?

10:28.868 –> 10:29.910
[SPEAKER_01]: And it’s like,

10:29.890 –> 10:37.719
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s that there’s still definitely a novelty to your product within that gift giving and that swag world, I think.

10:38.600 –> 10:46.309
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, we actually like we started with one age in the year ago in the UK and another one in like two months ago.

10:47.291 –> 10:53.518
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully in the coming years, there will be much more visibility of our product.

10:53.650 –> 11:04.945
[SPEAKER_01]: Undoubtedly, but anyone, anyone listening who’s plotting their next customer giveaway, you know, where the innovative product is getting contact with Rawl.

11:05.345 –> 11:08.009
[SPEAKER_00]: Did that, did that, did that.

11:08.029 –> 11:11.794
[SPEAKER_01]: So that B2B personalised notebook piece.

11:11.894 –> 11:16.600
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you doing that purely offline with the human relationship?

11:16.841 –> 11:20.265
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it via a B2B website?

11:21.005 –> 11:23.908
[SPEAKER_00]: We actually launched last week a new B2B website.

11:24.429 –> 11:36.642
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what we tried to do is be super open and transparent and have everything as much as possible on the website so that whoever wants to have their own notebooks they should be able to find everything from prices, delivery times, how to make the design.

11:37.403 –> 11:39.105
[SPEAKER_00]: So that part is online.

11:40.186 –> 11:43.890
[SPEAKER_00]: I do see that a lot of sales,

11:43.870 –> 11:47.456
[SPEAKER_00]: Well we say we have like a B to C to B business model.

11:47.717 –> 11:49.540
[SPEAKER_00]: So we sell first to a consumer.

11:50.081 –> 11:52.946
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of them will fall in love with the product and then they bring it to their office.

11:53.186 –> 12:00.418
[SPEAKER_00]: Then someone either damn or someone sees it and then they say, oh, this should be great for our colleagues and then they through that day, they order.

12:01.300 –> 12:04.866
[SPEAKER_00]: And because we knew that, or we noticed that,

12:04.846 –> 12:20.475
[SPEAKER_00]: The moment people have the notebook in their hand, they actually understand how cool it is, we also start doing more fears, like events where you, in the end, then physically meet people and have a chat and tell your story, or we’ve skilled up outbound email campaigns.

12:20.455 –> 12:43.881
[SPEAKER_00]: which we’re testing so I’m not sure how successful they are but the only goal with that is that we are kind of like very generous with sampling because we just want to have the notebook in the hands of the persons that could potentially buy it so by that we’re sampling a lot so it is online but I think in the end it’s nice and it’s a physical product so offline can work as well.

12:44.553 –> 12:58.245
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is possible to buy a B-to-B or a via the website, but you’re not forcing people to take that route because there’s still a lot of opportunity in the personal relationship in the physical product sampling.

12:58.686 –> 13:00.427
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, yeah.

13:00.447 –> 13:12.518
[SPEAKER_00]: And I honestly prefer to also have to actually build a little relationship with someone that everyone has interested in it, but I like the human aspect of doing business as well.

13:13.561 –> 13:17.006
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it’s often so important in building those relationships.

13:17.066 –> 13:20.470
[SPEAKER_01]: Those bigger bulk orders and everything as well, so it totally makes sense.

13:21.091 –> 13:28.601
[SPEAKER_01]: And you also mentioned that you are working on some reusable packaging.

13:28.661 –> 13:32.486
[SPEAKER_01]: So is that reusable packaging to send out your products?

13:32.526 –> 13:35.350
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is this another use for the stone paper product?

13:35.870 –> 13:48.704
[SPEAKER_00]: It is stone paper, but we make a corrugated material out of it, and it’s not like our notebook erasable, but the advantage of the material is that it is water resistant and tear resistant.

13:49.004 –> 13:52.488
[SPEAKER_00]: So you kind of get a corrugated box, but it’s much stronger than a regular box.

13:53.409 –> 13:56.853
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore ideal to be used in a reusable system.

13:57.674 –> 13:59.616
[SPEAKER_00]: So it can be either

13:59.596 –> 14:28.000
[SPEAKER_00]: how supplying their store, like a movement it goes from A to B from B to A and using a box that can be reusable there or as we do it now we are mainly focusing on creating e-commerce packaging so our notebook can now be bought in the checkout you can click on a reusable packaging if you’re in the right zip code so in the UK probably not but in the Netherlands if you’re in the right

14:27.980 –> 14:34.432
[SPEAKER_00]: Choose a reusable packaging, you pay deposit, and once you receive the packaging, you hand it back in in your closest bookstore.

14:35.013 –> 14:36.596
[SPEAKER_00]: They will pull them.

14:37.437 –> 14:39.761
[SPEAKER_00]: Whenever they have like them, they get come back to us.

14:39.882 –> 14:40.523
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s the system.

14:41.665 –> 14:49.920
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so it’s even on the direct to consumer side, it can become reusable because you’ve got these hubs for collecting it set up.

14:50.373 –> 14:50.754
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

14:51.255 –> 14:51.916
[SPEAKER_00]: So we do both.

14:52.136 –> 15:01.495
[SPEAKER_00]: So we for businesses we try to co-create the packaging that they need and for consumers Yeah, we we use our own packaging and there’s a system that’s been built in the Netherlands.

15:01.776 –> 15:06.525
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s called boxo and they late The whole logistics whatsoever for annual reusable packaging

15:07.130 –> 15:13.400
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you haven’t had to set up the bringback piece that you’re piggybacking on the system set up.

15:13.440 –> 15:14.321
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it boxo?

15:14.602 –> 15:15.303
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s called boxo.

15:15.864 –> 15:16.665
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s the other way around.

15:16.685 –> 15:21.873
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are kind of like introducing this packaging that we have in their system for any web shop to use.

15:22.855 –> 15:34.133
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s not only our web shop, but any web shop can say like, are we like to have 50 of your stone packaging in stock and then whenever they use them, they just pay as a

15:34.889 –> 15:36.596
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I got you very clever.

15:36.677 –> 15:40.453
[SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine a lot of the, you know, starting with the eco brands.

15:41.276 –> 15:43.988
[SPEAKER_01]: That’s gonna very quickly gain some traction for you.

15:44.137 –> 15:45.138
[SPEAKER_00]: definitely, definitely.

15:45.339 –> 15:51.066
[SPEAKER_00]: And the cool thing is, or cool, they’re interesting about the packaging is a no-one so packaging, right?

15:51.086 –> 15:56.834
[SPEAKER_00]: So as an e-commerce owner, the last thing you think about is like, ah, ah, ah, now I need to ship it.

15:56.914 –> 15:58.876
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I need to buy some boxes and you buy them.

15:58.896 –> 16:01.480
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it’s literally on there for a few hours.

16:01.560 –> 16:07.227
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it arrives at a customer and they also don’t want the box so they add back it and throw it away again.

16:07.287 –> 16:10.031
[SPEAKER_00]: So that this a very short lifetime, actually.

16:10.251 –> 16:11.713
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s super cool,

16:11.693 –> 16:16.480
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s a system that we set up to rethink, to make it reusable.

16:17.522 –> 16:26.876
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I think about most of the boxes I get goods in at home, either at their cardboard, but most of them would be completely reusable.

16:26.956 –> 16:28.699
[SPEAKER_01]: So they haven’t had the rain impact.

16:28.719 –> 16:33.587
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course your product is rainproof or water resistant as well.

16:33.667 –> 16:35.890
[SPEAKER_01]: So it’s going to have a longer longevity.

16:36.671 –> 16:38.494
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s huge opportunity there.

16:38.525 –> 16:55.791
[SPEAKER_00]: it’s both, so one of them is I think a cardboard box could also be used two or three times, but ours I think like 15 times, so that’s one, but for the cardboard box there’s also not really a system in place, so theoretically it could be used, but it’s perceived as single use of people always throw it away.

16:56.446 –> 17:04.635
[SPEAKER_01]: And you’ve got the sizing complexity with carbon boxes seem to come in all the sizes under the sun, whereas you’re in more control of what sizes get produced.

17:05.376 –> 17:09.280
[SPEAKER_01]: So it becomes easier, I would have suspected on that side.

17:10.662 –> 17:25.879
[SPEAKER_01]: So last time, the global expansion that you mentioned was very high on your agenda, and you were doing that all in-house, as you’ve just mentioned, you’re now doing it externally with an agent system who are commission-based.

17:26.500 –> 17:30.706
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that because you are less interested in global expansion or just because it’s a better way to do it?

17:32.068 –> 17:34.011
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a more sustainable way to do it.

17:34.051 –> 17:36.995
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are as interested as we were.

17:37.756 –> 17:53.318
[SPEAKER_00]: However, we were just the burn rate was so high and I think getting initial traction in a new country just takes several years for a brand to get some recognition and people to know the product and we were just spending so much money on it.

17:53.298 –> 18:21.297
[SPEAKER_00]: they were kind of took a step back and we said like what what I’ve actually the things that really are adding a lot of value to the international expansion and which don’t and let me give you an example for instance we had a full German website, a full French website so we needed translators for that but a website is not a landing page we’re I think 150 pages or something you know so those need all be translated and then you update something here and everything needs to be translated

18:21.277 –> 18:25.464
[SPEAKER_00]: So just such a simple thing already cost so much money in time.

18:25.945 –> 18:32.015
[SPEAKER_00]: So we now said, let’s just build super nice landing pages for country in their native time.

18:32.155 –> 18:38.866
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a German landing page that’s much longer than our normal home page that has much more information.

18:38.906 –> 18:44.415
[SPEAKER_00]: But it kind of gives the whole story about the product and the personalization and Christmas gifts and these kind of things.

18:44.395 –> 18:46.660
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we only have that website in German.

18:46.680 –> 18:56.781
[SPEAKER_00]: So whoever only speaks German gets to get the whole story of this, but whenever you want to buy something Then you just click on buy and then you come in the web shop and that’s just English, right?

18:56.861 –> 19:00.328
[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of media assumption that people can buy a product in English.

19:00.899 –> 19:13.432
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we had a German guy working in an alliance, and we had a German agent that got a retainer for you as well, quite a high one, because we want him fully involved in the team.

19:14.574 –> 19:20.580
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we just have an agent in Germany that kind of works on his own terms, and he gets a big commission on the sales that he does.

19:21.461 –> 19:25.185
[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn’t let’s say we’re not spending money before we get also

19:25.165 –> 19:25.686
[SPEAKER_00]: deals in.

19:25.906 –> 19:36.041
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s what we’re trying now, and we did the same for Sweden, the same for UK, and very much open to fight more agents in different countries, and that our love to sell us.

19:36.221 –> 19:38.745
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can’t say it’s more effective, right?

19:38.905 –> 19:46.055
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think it’s more, we can keep this pace for years, but with the kind of looking at cash flow.

19:46.296 –> 19:47.157
[SPEAKER_00]: And then,

19:47.137 –> 19:58.210
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope to at one point see a bit more traction in a country and then you can then we can reinvest that money in that country and kind of build it from there that will be the model that I’m that we’re trying now.

19:58.561 –> 20:10.031
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it’s kind of like having a number of ions in the fire, if that phrase makes sense to, you know, you’ve got all these countries are just kind of ticking along, not causing you too many cash flow issues, but there’s nice business there.

20:10.232 –> 20:14.856
[SPEAKER_01]: And if one of them takes off, you’ll know where to go and invest the extra overhead.

20:15.336 –> 20:28.568
[SPEAKER_01]: You were talking there about agents being on commission and then some of them having retainers as well, you know, there’s two different models that you can undertake.

20:28.548 –> 20:32.214
[SPEAKER_01]: Employing an agent in another country is a bit chicken and egg.

20:32.395 –> 20:51.467
[SPEAKER_01]: I seem to be a analogy central today, cliche central, sorry everybody, but it is a little bit because it’s kind of like you’re putting them on commission, but they won’t know how well it’s going to work until they test the market, but they’re not yet incentivized to you, you know, to promote you ahead of anyone else they’re representing because

20:51.447 –> 20:55.494
[SPEAKER_01]: they haven’t yet seen how well it converts or what size cash it can bring into them.

20:55.514 –> 21:04.169
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore the retainer seems good in the early days but then if it gets better then do you want if it’s really driving do you want to incentivise them spend all their time on you?

21:04.510 –> 21:11.582
[SPEAKER_01]: So for you is like the retainer plus commission versus the commission only model is that about?

21:11.562 –> 21:16.567
[SPEAKER_01]: life cycle time in the marketplace, you know, stage of life cycle in the marketplace.

21:16.647 –> 21:18.949
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it more of a strategic business?

21:18.969 –> 21:20.810
[SPEAKER_01]: As you know, does it just depend on the individual agent?

21:20.870 –> 21:21.211
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

21:21.231 –> 21:22.912
[SPEAKER_01]: 20 questions in about one.

21:23.813 –> 21:25.094
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re cool.

21:25.114 –> 21:25.495
[SPEAKER_00]: Good luck.

21:27.636 –> 21:34.142
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so some of the agents that we have, they kind of have, they work, let’s say four days a week, some of it, right?

21:34.182 –> 21:39.047
[SPEAKER_00]: So then they have an extra day and that they want to do something else and then want to develop something for themselves.

21:39.407 –> 21:41.569
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s in Sweden and one in the UK.

21:41.549 –> 22:09.632
[SPEAKER_00]: And that’s quite ideal for us because they’re not investing too much time, but they’re testing the waters and then if traction comes they could at one point decide, okay I’m gonna do this full-time and then the agent that we had in Germany and UK Both them were like senior and both of them also brought a big network and they kind of said like well If I’m gonna open my network, I would I would want a retainer fee so for both of them we agreed to start with a retainer fee and

22:09.612 –> 22:20.784
[SPEAKER_00]: We visit the contract once in a while because preferably you get to the point where we give them a bit higher commission and no retainer and then that would be higher than just a retainer.

22:22.106 –> 22:31.556
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I also understand that people have been working in the business for 20 years that they’re not going to like do outreach for you for like a year or without anything in return, right, because then they would.

22:32.397 –> 22:36.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it depends a bit on the person depends a bit on the person.

22:36.697 –> 22:45.447
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes for us it’s also hard to pay retainer fees because we’re kind of we’re not really controlling what the agents does because they kind of work for themselves.

22:45.467 –> 22:51.754
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we pay the higher the retainer fee is, the more we demand from the person.

22:51.794 –> 23:01.945
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we pay a three, four K per month, then we also demand that, you know, like we want you four hours per week, we can then we expect these outreach, we expect, it’s what I said.

23:01.925 –> 23:09.032
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so that’s, as a club’s agents also don’t like that, and they also rather have a bit lower retainer fee and a bit more flexibility.

23:11.355 –> 23:16.239
[SPEAKER_02]: E-commerce master plan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

23:16.260 –> 23:24.228
[SPEAKER_02]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

23:24.248 –> 23:26.650
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s time for the top six round.

23:29.009 –> 23:34.557
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I love this section because it’s me and I’ll list us some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

23:34.617 –> 23:36.279
[SPEAKER_01]: Rule, are you ready for the top tips?

23:37.261 –> 23:37.421
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

23:38.322 –> 23:47.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the book top tip, if everyone is listening to this podcast, I agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

23:47.690 –> 23:53.837
[SPEAKER_00]: I read this summer in the book, Designing Regenerative Cultures, and it was an amazing book.

23:54.338 –> 23:55.139
[SPEAKER_00]: I don’t know if you know it.

23:55.800 –> 24:03.088
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s about not about designing as a sustainable product, but it’s about designing as a sustainable company.

24:03.549 –> 24:05.731
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s like system thinking.

24:06.532 –> 24:07.974
[SPEAKER_00]: No sustainability is not enough.

24:08.054 –> 24:13.040
[SPEAKER_00]: We should build companies that are making the planet better and not less worse.

24:13.160 –> 24:14.141
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s where the book is about.

24:14.562 –> 24:15.503
[SPEAKER_00]: Super inspiring.

24:15.972 –> 24:23.222
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it sounds great, I love sustainability and I love systems, so, sounds perfect.

24:23.342 –> 24:25.865
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go and have a look at this one, that one after this.

24:26.686 –> 24:32.454
[SPEAKER_01]: The traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either price above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

24:33.816 –> 24:43.228
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote down that we’re searching, so I really see traffic changing back in the days we could do like advertisement that was like, just put your money in, let’s go.

24:43.394 –> 24:51.246
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re doing a lot of outreach through LinkedIn and a mill campaigns at this point already for like a year and that was a bit successful.

24:51.326 –> 24:57.575
[SPEAKER_00]: But now I also see if I look at my own mailbox and LinkedIn, I’m just being overloaded with these messages.

24:57.735 –> 25:01.241
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you’re everyone is doing it, then it’s also becoming a bit annoying.

25:01.701 –> 25:02.803
[SPEAKER_00]: So.

25:02.783 –> 25:13.983
[SPEAKER_00]: More and more, I have the feeling that real human seals, you know, like physical traffic, what’s your effort like, could be more important over the coming years.

25:14.004 –> 25:14.987
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s my assumption.

25:15.912 –> 25:19.360
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it’s an interesting time to be trying to work out the perfect traffic option.

25:20.222 –> 25:23.209
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I totally get what you’re coming from with that.

25:23.289 –> 25:24.412
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, tool-top tip.

25:24.492 –> 25:28.842
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug-in, a phone-up, or just a way of working.

25:29.002 –> 25:33.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a call at little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

25:34.508 –> 25:35.970
[SPEAKER_00]: I could plug my own product, right?

25:38.694 –> 25:44.183
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I think it’s super valuable to once in a while, take a notebook and just write.

25:44.944 –> 25:48.209
[SPEAKER_00]: Our notebook has a to-do list, a planner, and these kind of things in them.

25:48.289 –> 25:59.706
[SPEAKER_00]: So to write down the things that you want to do, erase them once you’re done, or if you want to be creative, then take a piece of paper and write in it.

25:59.686 –> 26:05.636
[SPEAKER_00]: a set of deck tools, uh, get a reusable notebook or or a no book in general, just write some times.

26:06.578 –> 26:11.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so good to get away from the screens and actually physically interact with your thinking.

26:11.647 –> 26:11.887
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.

26:11.907 –> 26:13.871
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, love that, I’m idea.

26:14.732 –> 26:19.821
[SPEAKER_01]: Carbon top tip, your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store, please.

26:20.746 –> 26:21.807
[SPEAKER_00]: reusable packaging.

26:22.388 –> 26:25.010
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that’s going to be an amazing solution.

26:25.511 –> 26:29.875
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, I think I think there’s a lot to win for e-commerce businesses, right?

26:30.016 –> 26:37.463
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we get to the point where every packaging that will be shipped is going to be reusable, that’s going to be amazing.

26:37.643 –> 26:44.931
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the product that we launched is Stone Packer, that would be a great solution to

26:45.552 –> 26:51.900
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, such a cool system, not one I’ve seen or the tech and the infrastructure that you were talking about.

26:51.940 –> 26:57.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Not one I’ve seen yet in the UK, but it can only be, you know, we’ve got a few companies who do it themselves.

26:58.108 –> 27:05.417
[SPEAKER_01]: Veg Box deliveries and that who are coming around every week anyway, but I’ve not yet seen anyone doing it on a larger scale in the UK.

27:05.397 –> 27:06.899
[SPEAKER_01]: If I’ve got that wrong, anyone listening?

27:07.199 –> 27:08.881
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me know, I’d love to know who is doing it.

27:09.622 –> 27:12.426
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it’s definitely got to be where we’re heading.

27:13.027 –> 27:15.630
[SPEAKER_01]: I suspect in our world.

27:16.731 –> 27:20.536
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we say goodbye, could you please let the listeners know where they can find you?

27:20.576 –> 27:23.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Your notebooks, your packaging, your personalized notebooks?

27:24.281 –> 27:26.123
[SPEAKER_01]: On the web and social media, please.

27:26.592 –> 27:33.506
[SPEAKER_00]: This is www.moju.moju.moju.moju.rucks from stone.

27:33.526 –> 27:37.073
[SPEAKER_00]: So, moju.rucks, that’s our website.

27:37.954 –> 27:41.141
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there, like in the header, it is like business and personalized these kind of things.

27:41.161 –> 27:42.323
[SPEAKER_00]: It should be easy to find.

27:42.556 –> 27:48.303
[SPEAKER_00]: The stone peckers or the packaging solution is also on that landing page of on that page somewhere.

27:48.383 –> 27:57.214
[SPEAKER_00]: So it can be a fan there or just reach out to me and I’m happy to chat about it and then all the social slides so you can find us on LinkedIn and Instagram and these kind of things.

27:58.275 –> 27:58.776
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

27:58.796 –> 28:04.082
[SPEAKER_01]: A little it’s been lovely getting to catch up with you again and very exciting to hear how your business is developing.

28:04.142 –> 28:05.644
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks so much for being on the show.

28:05.843 –> 28:09.750
[SPEAKER_00]: Same, same, let’s do this again in three years and see how the packaging is developing.

28:09.770 –> 28:12.094
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, let’s, great plan.

28:12.234 –> 28:12.875
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Rul.

28:13.796 –> 28:13.957
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.

28:19.827 –> 28:25.897
[SPEAKER_01]: Great to get to catch up with Rul there and find out what they’re up to now at MoU and how the business is developing.

28:25.997 –> 28:28.982
[SPEAKER_01]: And absolutely fascinating to see how they are.

28:29.317 –> 28:48.928
[SPEAKER_01]: Still doing the D to C, but now also selling into retail check physical retail chains and then also doing great with their personalized bulk sales to businesses for client gift staff gifts and so on and so forth fascinating stuff hopefully lots of practical tips there for those of you on the similar journey.

28:48.908 –> 28:56.058
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get your hands on the notes from this episode, including the top tips and links to what we talked about by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com.

28:56.498 –> 29:06.652
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our director episode short links, just put ECMP.info for such the number of this episode into the URL bar and you’ll be redirected straight to the right page.

29:07.072 –> 29:14.983
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to my email list and then you won’t miss out on any of the things I share to help you improve your business.

29:14.963 –> 29:22.033
[SPEAKER_01]: If you liked this episode, then find out more about where MoU came from in my first chat with rule, which is episode 450.

29:22.133 –> 29:36.212
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you want more about great people doing awesome things in the sustainability space, then ECMP.info4-b-corp will take you to the page on the website where we list all our b-corp people.

29:36.428 –> 29:41.296
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this and every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

29:41.656 –> 29:52.874
[SPEAKER_01]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help you to succeed and thrive with your business, including encouraging businesses and consumers alike to make more sustainable buying decisions.

29:53.315 –> 29:58.083
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

29:58.443 –> 30:01.508
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a brilliant week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

30:04.390 –> 30:07.781
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to the eCommerce MasterBland podcast.

30:08.243 –> 30:13.540
[SPEAKER_02]: Find out more at eCommercemasterplanned.com Slash podcast.