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[SPEAKER_02]: If you go back 20 years free internet, then information was to preserve big companies, then the internet came along and the real skill set was about search, could you search and find the correct information?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Now with AI, everybody has the information.

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[SPEAKER_02]: To now it’s about speed of execution, can you figure out what to execute on and can you do it faster than anybody else?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Air to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the hinder to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, and welcome.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s great to have you here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

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[SPEAKER_00]: A huge thanks to Adam Pearce from Blend for suggesting we get in touch with today’s guest.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Adam.

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[SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we are talking to a brand that are already on eight figures.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Talking to their founder and CEO about…

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[SPEAKER_00]: how they’ve got to the eight figure total and how they are going to get to nine figure total.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We are also getting into how they are approaching AI.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We’re getting into the plan or his theories on whether you should outsource your ads or not, what it takes to grow.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We’re talking about whether or not you should have fulfillment in house, whether or not you should have

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[SPEAKER_00]: in-house.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a really, really inspiring, interesting episode.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There’s lots of nuggets of cool little stuff you could implement straight away, but also a lot of big pictures stuff to get you thinking.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think you’re going to enjoy this one.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I’ll be very surprised if you don’t.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Please, please, please make sure you listen to the end of the episode because my guest top tips are just as good as the rest of the interview.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And now to introduce our special guest.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Luke Bream is the chief executive and co-founder at Valente, sellers of organic skincare and home fragrance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Founded on a market stall in 2011, they now do £25 million a year via their WooCommerce store and some on Amazon.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Luke.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, hello, thank you for having me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Very cool to have you on the show and congrats on going from market stall to £25 million in what

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I think really have to consider that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That was being in two stages for 10 years of that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We were tiny.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We were doing 500,000 the year.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And we’re trading from market stores.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then COVID came along.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And five years later, we were 50 times bigger.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So we had the most extraordinary growth from early 2020 onwards.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Crazy time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s mad how much success can come out of a constraint.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as I look back and actually think we were exceptionally lucky through that phase, the business was just at the right point.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We had an online business, but it was pretty small.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And that time we were probably doing about 10,000 a year through our website.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And we didn’t have much money in the UK government put in a bounce back loan where we could have £50,000 and we’d never had £50,000 before in the bank.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And

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[SPEAKER_02]: all the consumer shows that we were doing were cancelled and we took the business online and we took the bounce back loan and put it into Facebook ads the first week we spent a thousand pounds by the end of that first year we spent nearly a million pounds on Facebook and we never looked back from that and we just went through an extraordinary series of growth over the next five years and

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[SPEAKER_02]: Ponsently having to reinvent ourselves both.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We’re physical business as well.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have to we manufacture the product.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We do our own fulfilment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We develop the products in-house and we do all our marketing in-house.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So there was a colossal element of learning there of financial implications.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So I under business 100% and going that through that growth was very challenging financially.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And also from a learning perspective, as we’ve scaled, you encounter different challenges and we’re facing those again now, as we figure out how to go from our aim over the next two or three years is to get to 100 million in sales and unlocking how we do that is a very significantly different.

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[SPEAKER_02]: different challenge, the skills that got us to 25 million was scrappy and sort of top-down management where I’m so I’m generally doing all of figuring out and then I’m telling the team going to this, this is this is the answer to the solution, doesn’t work, you know, including agency at peak, we’ve got more than more than 200 staff and you can’t run the business like that at that scale.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a very different thing that we’re going through at the moment as we

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[SPEAKER_02]: prepare, bring in very experienced senior leadership to help, and really unlock who know what good looks like, and also who know what a much bigger business actually looks like, and they bring their expertise and systems in, and that’s really helped us over the last six months.

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[SPEAKER_00]: nice loads for us to get it getting to there, but before we do, Luke, going through that shift from all the shifts you’ve gone through, I suppose, as you’ve been growing the business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I often think, you know, there’s a, there’s a cohort of thought that

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[SPEAKER_00]: your as a person you have a sweet spot of business growth, you know, some people are great at the scrappy, some people are great at the one to five or the five to twenty, although you know wherever those breaks are.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But then you occasionally you come across people who just love the constant changing nature of the business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How have you, you personally, as one of the leaders in the business,

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the truth of the matter is you identify a very real problem when you describe that and I think I watched a later homozy talk about exactly that that most businesses cap out at somewhere between $3 million and $30 million to penny on the industry they’re in and the skill set of the founders very few businesses break through that because it requires an order of magnitude change in the founders ability and the job that they do.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the first thing is for me it’s been, I’m fascinated by learning and it’s about recognizing what the key constraint within the businesses at any one time.

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[SPEAKER_02]: When I think about my working day, I work in say now as, but doesn’t most people earn lead in businesses, but that’s a choice.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I’m probably spending six or eight hours of my day learning.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I’m learning, whatever, the limit of the business is knowledge, trying to figure out what the next stage is.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think

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[SPEAKER_02]: For me, the most recent phase of that is being understanding that I needed to bring people in who are better than me, who are specialists, rather than generalists, and the business, we earn the right to get bigger, and as an individual leader, I earn the right to stay the leader in the business.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So if I don’t continue to grow, either the business stalls, or I have to replace myself.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So I take the view all the time that I have to continually

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[SPEAKER_02]: be at the front leaning and understanding how I need to grow.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because if I don’t grow my skillset, my knowledge, my understanding of the market, my understanding of what leadership is required, the business stops.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It always caps out of the leaders ability to do the job.

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[SPEAKER_00]: so true.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess the other side out for me is, you know, did you always have the desire to make it as big as you could?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think some people would have stayed at that original small level because they were happy with it and they had no desire to go bigger.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So for you it was the desire always been there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And there’s nothing wrong with that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs of all different sizes, and they talk of come to me talking about growth and I would say, is that what you actually want?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because it’s super important that people are clear and honest with themselves about the scale that what they’re actually trying to build.

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[SPEAKER_02]: because not everyone wants that next stage and actually you can harm your business quite a lot.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If you overgrow the business beyond what you personally either have the skill to run or want to run.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So coming back to myself, I always want his ability to grow your business.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I, I from the time I was at school, I wanted to build a billion pound business and, you know, that ambition has never gone away.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It’s getting ever more realistic, sure.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I’m in a big global marketplace.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we think we can do a hundred million from just inside the UK, which massively reduces complexity.

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[SPEAKER_02]: My current site, we can do two to three hundred million.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got capacity for that there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, but I, I always wanted to build that business.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don’t do it for the money.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It’s an intellectual challenge, am I good enough?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Am I do I have the ability?

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[SPEAKER_02]: I look around at me at business leaders around the world who I look up to and respect and admire and I ask myself constantly, am I as good as them?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Can I be better than them?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And it’s not about money.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It’s just kind of a lot of the challenge, kind of solve the problems to face each stage.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So for me it’s an intellectual challenge as much as anything else.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That’s such a clear answer, and one I suspect, a lot of our audience are resonating with your with how you see it and also resonating with your you don’t have to grow if you don’t want to grow fine.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So as I love that, let’s just talk about the kind of the the brass tax about the business, you know, the facts about the business, you said, you know, you’ve got that growth target within the UK so you pure you but UK based in selling only to the UK at the moment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: More or less we have a small business in Ireland so we’re direct consumer, we manufacture everything in house and we have a small Amazon business as well but it’s not massive and it’s more born out of reducing complexity because I think growing a business is hard enough as it is and why tackle multiple fronts at the same time.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So we have very much taken the view that we can do that size business in the UK, so why fight on more fronts than we need to.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I think, yeah, that’s what we’re sitting.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then obviously, like, the American market for our in our category is, you know, probably 10 times the size of the UK could even be 20 times the size of the UK, the home fragrance market there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, and the Middle East is what is growing really fast in that

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[SPEAKER_02]: But it requires a different, you know, it feels like that’s a different, a slightly different challenge.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Why try that challenge when I, when I’ve got enough on my plate, figuring out the stage that the stage that we’re at.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think coming back to me, I said, we earn the right to get bigger.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What I’ve come to realises.

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[SPEAKER_02]: growing sales is actually relatively using.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If you are, you know, reason to be capable of Facebook ads or you’ve got a short-form content or you’ve got a skill set about driving traffic.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Growing sales, you can do great sales.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Not having the wheels fall off your business during growth.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Either financially, you need to control operationally.

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[SPEAKER_02]: you don’t figure out how to manage big teams or delegate properly and so on you super challenging.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that becomes the crux of the challenge as you as you get bigger and certainly that’s been it’s been like that for us.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think too many businesses try and go global earlier for the sake of going global, whereas there’s so much growth potentially.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think if there’s enough growth potentially in your home market, why make life more difficult?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, exactly.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And that’s not fashionable or trendy.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, everyone thinks it’s easier to go global.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don’t think it is.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it just massively increases complexity.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my business specifically is more complex than most when we’re choosing to a developer and products manufacture them for fill them, do the marketing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So why add to that?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you mentioned that you had 200 odd people in the team and you’re doing the manufacturing etc in house.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How do those people divide across the functions of the business?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And is there anything you’re choosing to outsource?

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[SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got about 20 in our marketing team, and then probably six or eight on a technical side developers and that kind of thing, and then all the rest to split, almost 50, 50 between fulfillment and a manufacturing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: plenty of square foot then.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I think I think we’ve got we’ve got two building side by side.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got about 40,000 square foot of space between the two buildings.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, a reasonable amount of space now.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We didn’t have, I mean, you know, we started, or as I said, we started on a market store and making a product at home through COVID.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Just leading up to COVID, we had a single, we were trading from an old dairy farm and a small unit.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think we had about, um,

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[SPEAKER_02]: 1500 square feet.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then as we started to scale during COVID, we kept adding units on on this farm.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Then we took another building and we were splitting our operations that there were 10 miles apart.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And about three and a half years ago we moved into the site we’re in now.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But you underestimate the cost of that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It was colossal and they were brand new build.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And they didn’t have fencing around them.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You don’t have alarm systems.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You don’t have then I do the floor properly.

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[SPEAKER_02]: There’s no you go into a new build.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They’re 13 meters high, they don’t put lights in.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They just give you a fuse board on the wall.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And that was not for the fame-hearted.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And that’s really been the case over the last couple of two or three years where you’ve got a lot of levels of investment going on in physically and equipment because we’re manufacturing in people, you need better and better quality of people coming into the business.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, don’t forget, you still got a quiet customer.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So you’re advertising to a quiet customer,

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[SPEAKER_02]: the challenge of every consumer facing business and how do you do that, either at break even, profitably, whatever your model is, or you’re gonna trade for a few months to get your money back, but it’s figuring out the mechanics of that challenge.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it’s doing your own manufacturing as that blessing and curse, isn’t it?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You have complete control over your supply chain, but it can become a constraint to growth.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The strengths and weaknesses are of it and I think the key strength of it is that you are reduction in working capital from a stock perspective because we can manufacture products in the morning and send it out to a customer in the afternoon.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So that gives us immense flexibility.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We can make in very small batches which allows us to test a lot of things.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The downside is you’ve got, you’ve got, you’ve got, I did complexity, you know, I came from manufacturing backgrounds, so I understood manufacturing and operation is pretty well, so that did make life a bit easier and was a more natural fit for us to go down that route.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think as I look forward in the business, you know, like when I think about what the next

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[SPEAKER_02]: three or four years looks like.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Then I think it’s about reducing complexity.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, you begin to think about whether you should be outsourcing for film at rather than doing it in house.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, ultimately have to look at whether most values added in the business.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, the most value is added at around marketing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, you’re never going to outsource marketing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But is wrapping and packing shipping orders as the least value?

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[SPEAKER_02]: I would have said it’s a very commoditized operation because I want to do that and particularly lend itself to, as we start to look to go international, then we outsource wrapping and packing in the UK first to understand that before we then go and do it overseas.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would imagine that’s a travel and we would continue to manufacture and we would just use the extra space to increase manufacturing capacity.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then you don’t have to do another move, which is exactly that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: A huge destruction of cash and manpower and everything else.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So you mentioned there that you wouldn’t ever outsource the marketing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was all your marketing done in house.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody running the Facebook house, the emails, everything.

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[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have periodically used agencies to acquire skills and learn things, but I’m not a fan of the agency model.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And to be honest, what we do now, if we need advice, is we typically use refined experts in that and we use them more like a consultant, some mentors, so we might have them for two hours a week.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And to myself, for my team, we’re dipping in out of that resource, but we’re still implement ourselves.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because

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[SPEAKER_02]: We take the view that marketing is a core competence and, you know, you take ads, for example, you know, you cannot build a direct consumer business without being well class at ads.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I just don’t think it’s possible and you can’t learn that if you’re outsourcing that to an agency, you need to be in need to be doing that in-house in the team and building the people.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, ads are so important.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I’ve got 10 people in my ad team.

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[SPEAKER_02]: emails are hugely important channel.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the thing that we’ve always concentrated on, and I suppose it comes back to thinking about a spear rather than a sort of scattergun approach, we have tried to become experts, a very limited number of things.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So we were very poor, for instance, a social media.

17:22.440 –> 17:23.461
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn’t give it any time.

17:23.501 –> 17:26.944
[SPEAKER_02]: We basically concentrated on ads and email.

17:26.965 –> 17:31.549
[SPEAKER_02]: And we’ve got very high retention of customers, 80% of our transactions are returning customers,

17:31.529 –> 17:41.601
[SPEAKER_02]: 20% of customers come in and make a second purchase within 30 days, and we normally cap out at about 65% of customers will turn into repeat buyers.

17:42.182 –> 17:48.629
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can be pretty confident about acquiring customers and doing that, so we want to do that in-house.

17:48.750 –> 17:56.659
[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, for me, that’s the big challenge, that’s the interesting bit, and I spend my time working.

17:56.639 –> 18:24.385
[SPEAKER_02]: on whatever I consider to be the hardest challenge in the business, so I’m always working at the cutting edge of the business, the cutting edge of the sort of edge of my knowledge and the business is knowledge, but I suppose my skill set is knowledge acquisition, sorting through thousands and thousands of pieces of information to glean the really key thing is and and I spend a huge amount of my time benchmarking and modeling what the best companies in the world

18:24.365 –> 18:37.487
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what’s interesting about the time we live in at the moment is that if you go back 20 years free internet, then information was to preserve big companies and it was, those are moto is walled garden, you couldn’t get that information.

18:38.048 –> 18:47.925
[SPEAKER_02]: Then the internet came along and the real skill set that put underpin success was about search, could you search and find the correct information?

18:47.905 –> 18:55.053
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the last few years that’s all turned on its head and it’s been about AI and about execution.

18:55.273 –> 18:58.316
[SPEAKER_02]: Now with AI, everybody has the information.

18:58.677 –> 19:05.144
[SPEAKER_02]: You’ve only got to search into chatGQP or Claude and you have got the knowledge now to do it.

19:05.444 –> 19:07.506
[SPEAKER_02]: So now it’s about speed of execution.

19:07.807 –> 19:12.772
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you figure out what to execute on and can you do it faster than anybody else?

19:13.433 –> 19:15.415
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it’s a very exciting time.

19:16.373 –> 19:26.067
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a very exciting time, and I’m going to pick your brains on AI shortly, but before we do that, I want to come back something you said about the marketing and the ads, and that keeping it all in house, you’ve got the knowledge in house.

19:27.188 –> 19:36.762
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things which as the ad platforms are evolving and how the algorithms are evolving that I’ve been thinking about is that businesses which get to your size.

19:36.742 –> 19:47.899
[SPEAKER_00]: when the ad success is so down to matching the creative with the or target audiences desires and the audience that are going to buy the product.

19:48.368 –> 19:51.453
[SPEAKER_00]: that creative bit is really hard to outsource.

19:51.933 –> 19:57.241
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, add add add agency’s made sense when it was the targeting, targeting one zero is easy to outsource.

19:57.261 –> 20:11.062
[SPEAKER_00]: The creative part, I think any business who’s got a sizable marketing team and they’re budget for it, it makes so little sense to have someone else running your ads and friends of mine who are running add agencies, please don’t hate me for this.

20:11.082 –> 20:17.211
[SPEAKER_00]: But is that one of the reasons you think it’s ever more important is because that, that importance of the creative.

20:17.377 –> 20:19.780
[SPEAKER_02]: they cannot understand the messaging.

20:19.800 –> 20:34.055
[SPEAKER_02]: And they also, the agency modeler, I think is currently broken because if you think, even if you go back three months ago, it wasn’t untypical to see Adercount, a busy Adercount might have 300 Adercount, 300 Ads in it, 400 Ads.

20:34.375 –> 20:36.378
[SPEAKER_02]: The average might have had 50 or 60 ads.

20:36.698 –> 20:39.641
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I looked at Adercount recently, I had 25,000 Ads in it.

20:40.142 –> 20:47.029
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there’s a step change in, and it gone of the days where an agency can come back

20:47.009 –> 20:49.993
[SPEAKER_02]: 20 new ads a month or we’re going to give you 15 new ads a month.

20:50.353 –> 20:51.715
[SPEAKER_02]: It just doesn’t work like that anymore.

20:51.735 –> 20:55.679
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you’ve got to create quality ads and you need thousands of them.

20:56.100 –> 21:05.051
[SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a melting pot between one set work, you know, how do you unlock the persona or the avatar with angles to actually create the right messaging?

21:05.651 –> 21:11.198
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you unlock the ad types and have an understanding about creative diversity?

21:11.238 –> 21:16.965
[SPEAKER_02]: And then how do you do that on steroids in enormous volume?

21:16.945 –> 21:17.806
[SPEAKER_02]: Adds now.

21:19.368 –> 21:36.586
[SPEAKER_02]: Before it was about the technical aspects of running your account to a structure and things like it’s not really about that anymore, it is about nailing created and iterating and understanding I think the biggest takeaway for us now on ads is really understanding what is a good ad.

21:37.026 –> 21:44.995
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you or team on pick a good ad, recognise it and then recognise why that’s a good ad, and then build on that.

21:45.127 –> 21:50.414
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, then roll out 10 or 20 iterations based on that to really capitalize on that audience, yeah.

21:50.434 –> 21:51.575
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.

21:52.136 –> 22:01.488
[SPEAKER_00]: So coming back to AI, I’m assuming you’ve been testing a whole load of stuff with AI, both internally and for external purposes.

22:02.089 –> 22:05.413
[SPEAKER_00]: Any wins or tips you’re willing to share?

22:05.697 –> 22:11.282
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the first thing I would say is probably the most valuable thing we did was to employ someone, an AI-class.

22:11.502 –> 22:13.784
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have physically got someone in the business.

22:14.525 –> 22:32.200
[SPEAKER_02]: He did his first degree in Mumbai, an AI, then he came over and did a master’s at Manchester an AI and then spent a year working for an American company, an AI and then he joined us and done a young guy super bright and that was a real step change in our understanding of AI.

22:32.240 –> 22:34.422
[SPEAKER_02]: How to do it is just in the building.

22:34.402 –> 22:45.620
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and he’s so important to the business, he is in the next office for me, and he’s in and out like, you know, those junior members of staff, he’s almost reporting directly to me, because I think that’s so important.

22:46.241 –> 22:50.588
[SPEAKER_02]: That thing, and then the other thing is, is to understand I think with AI, that,

22:51.260 –> 22:54.866
[SPEAKER_02]: AI does not mean full automation, not even remotely.

22:54.926 –> 22:57.932
[SPEAKER_02]: The technology is just not there and I don’t think it ever will be.

22:58.252 –> 23:09.031
[SPEAKER_02]: So the way that we look at AI, you still need a strategy person sitting there thinking about AI and you still need a creative person sitting and thinking about AI.

23:09.753 –> 23:10.534
[SPEAKER_02]: And

23:10.514 –> 23:15.901
[SPEAKER_02]: what the technology now allows you to do is magnifies everything.

23:15.961 –> 23:21.149
[SPEAKER_02]: So you get 10 times the volume out, but you still need the intelligence behind it.

23:21.229 –> 23:22.090
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s not there.

23:22.150 –> 23:24.313
[SPEAKER_02]: You can’t just leave it on its own and do it.

23:25.134 –> 23:35.408
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose if you think about creative guardrails, that when you’re thinking about, say, adds specifically using AI, but we use it in email as well.

23:35.388 –> 23:41.096
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to close the eyes of your brand managers and your brand team for a while.

23:41.597 –> 23:46.323
[SPEAKER_02]: And you just have to accept that you’re going to make content that really is off-brand.

23:46.964 –> 23:54.274
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you have to remove the guardrails to allow the team who’s using it to create content and learn and iterate and so on.

23:54.574 –> 24:01.564
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what we found was, then we could gradually bring the guardrails back in place as we understood the technology better.

24:01.544 –> 24:14.556
[SPEAKER_02]: so it’s an iteration that you have to accept in the first instance that you’re going to produce content you don’t love, but you need to go through that process of iteration and learning.

24:15.058 –> 24:16.842
[SPEAKER_02]: That was one really interesting fact.

24:16.862 –> 24:18.827
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the other thing to learn is that

24:19.752 –> 24:29.929
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is quite a hard, that if you’re used to controlling something, one of the things that we’ve realized is, probably we’ll let it’s more to add to the AI, but we’ve realized you can’t actually pick the winners.

24:30.570 –> 24:38.604
[SPEAKER_02]: Like so, you can put 10 ads in front of me, even now I’ve spent millions of pounds on ads, and I basically cannot pick the winner from them.

24:39.085 –> 24:41.068
[SPEAKER_02]: And what we’ve come to realize is,

24:41.048 –> 24:44.332
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s better to almost automate that decision-making process.

24:44.372 –> 24:48.397
[SPEAKER_02]: So we’re generating ads and then we are not second-guessing them.

24:48.457 –> 24:56.367
[SPEAKER_02]: And I’ve spoken to a founder of a French founder of an AI platform that had got very fast growth.

24:56.387 –> 25:02.714
[SPEAKER_02]: They had grown in nine months from zero to 20 million a year and by annual rate on their figures.

25:03.375 –> 25:05.418
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, what was underpinning that?

25:05.438 –> 25:10.684
[SPEAKER_02]: When they first started running their own ads, they were writing and scripts themselves

25:10.664 –> 25:26.597
[SPEAKER_02]: checking at all and so on and what they realized was it couldn’t pick the winners and they started completely automating that process and everything just went live and they let the algorithm decide what the winning ad was and that was infinitely more successful than trying to reselect it.

25:26.577 –> 25:28.881
[SPEAKER_02]: So AI is a very interesting space.

25:28.901 –> 25:30.103
[SPEAKER_02]: We’re fascinated by it.

25:30.403 –> 25:30.904
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s tough.

25:31.465 –> 25:37.154
[SPEAKER_02]: It needs strong leadership from someone at the top of the business has got to embrace AI.

25:37.174 –> 25:38.756
[SPEAKER_02]: I am really wanted to be there.

25:39.077 –> 25:44.165
[SPEAKER_02]: There’s a fair amount of resistance from people within the specialist subjects.

25:44.345 –> 25:52.939
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think you think graphic design, you could think video editors, you could think creative strategies in ads,

25:52.919 –> 26:01.147
[SPEAKER_02]: whatever else they are resistors to it because they see it as a threat to the job, it changes their work flows and so on.

26:01.187 –> 26:13.760
[SPEAKER_02]: And it needs somebody senior in the business to drive through the change and also provide a level of reassurance that this doesn’t mean job losses, it just means it actually means increased productivity.

26:14.321 –> 26:17.644
[SPEAKER_02]: But that needs a senior leader to manage that process.

26:20.358 –> 26:25.227
[SPEAKER_01]: E-commerce most at land is supported by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

26:25.348 –> 26:35.768
[SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

26:38.093 –> 26:43.281
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love this section because me and our listeners are really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

26:43.341 –> 26:45.304
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, are you ready for the top tips?

26:45.945 –> 26:46.225
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.

26:46.746 –> 26:47.267
[SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

26:47.367 –> 26:48.388
[SPEAKER_00]: The book top tip.

26:48.408 –> 26:54.858
[SPEAKER_00]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

26:55.659 –> 26:58.003
[SPEAKER_02]: Alex Ormosi’s $100 million offer.

26:58.203 –> 27:06.295
[SPEAKER_02]: If you’re in the, if you’re any commerce, that is the most sensational book and your reader is super short and you’ll read it in three or

27:06.781 –> 27:10.699
[SPEAKER_00]: I’ve never heard of that one, what’s it, what does it get into, can you give us any spoilers?

27:10.932 –> 27:18.683
[SPEAKER_02]: Alex almost he has a, I think he cut his chops or built his business first of all in gyms teaching gym owners how to run their businesses.

27:19.184 –> 27:31.001
[SPEAKER_02]: Now he’s just going to the Guinness World Records for doing a $100 million in sales over a long weekend and essentially he unpicks how to construct a world class offer.

27:31.442 –> 27:38.172
[SPEAKER_02]: And essentially that you can think of the premise of the book is how to create an offer that people feel stupid to say no to.

27:38.152 –> 27:39.393
[SPEAKER_02]: We read the book.

27:39.994 –> 27:45.919
[SPEAKER_02]: I then got my team to read the book and then I told them to go and create an offer and I genuinely promise this is true.

27:46.480 –> 27:51.585
[SPEAKER_02]: We put that offer live and overnight, we added £200,000 a week to our sales.

27:51.645 –> 27:55.729
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like we turned Christmas on and that just stayed at that level.

27:55.789 –> 27:59.632
[SPEAKER_02]: It caused us a loss or problems in the middle of last year as a consequence.

28:01.234 –> 28:06.859
[SPEAKER_02]: But what he says in that book works without question when we’re living proof of that from

28:07.042 –> 28:09.886
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, anyone who didn’t want it the first time you mentioned it, definitely wants it now.

28:09.906 –> 28:12.490
[SPEAKER_00]: So could you just please repeat the name of the book at the author?

28:13.050 –> 28:16.956
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it’s by Alex Homosi and it’s called $100 million offers.

28:17.477 –> 28:20.781
[SPEAKER_00]: There we go, proof everybody for this week’s booktop tip.

28:21.142 –> 28:27.210
[SPEAKER_00]: The traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

28:27.713 –> 28:48.924
[SPEAKER_02]: Or yeah, I’d be torn between email and ads and I think that I think it’s about ads and everyone knows it’s about ads, but I think the key thing about ads is about new customer acquisition you must you must split if we spend a tiny budget on on getting our own customers back on returning customers.

28:48.944 –> 28:53.451
[SPEAKER_02]: So figuring out how to acquire new customers on ad.

28:53.431 –> 28:54.853
[SPEAKER_02]: is the Holy Grail.

28:54.874 –> 28:59.602
[SPEAKER_02]: And it should occupy 99.9% of every founders’ time.

29:00.363 –> 29:01.024
[SPEAKER_00]: Simple as that?

29:01.185 –> 29:02.166
[SPEAKER_00]: Or not simple as that?

29:02.948 –> 29:03.569
[SPEAKER_02]: Or not simple.

29:03.589 –> 29:05.532
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that’s it.

29:05.552 –> 29:07.796
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, definitely to focus on.

29:08.137 –> 29:18.595
[SPEAKER_00]: The tooltop tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug-in, a phone app, or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team at more efficient from day to day?

29:19.098 –> 29:21.362
[SPEAKER_02]: notion without question.

29:21.622 –> 29:39.975
[SPEAKER_02]: So, one of the things that we use notion for, we have an ideas wiki, and every single time I consume a colossal amount of information, every single time I find something, I will put playbooks into there, and now we have got

29:39.955 –> 29:43.380
[SPEAKER_02]: thousands and thousands of pieces of content in that notion.

29:43.420 –> 29:45.563
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s got a fantastic AI tool.

29:45.844 –> 29:53.936
[SPEAKER_02]: You can go and say, tell me about some landing pages, tell me about video sales letters and it will give you because it’s all curated because it’s our content.

29:54.556 –> 30:01.086
[SPEAKER_02]: And then every two or three days, I send my team

30:01.066 –> 30:04.029
[SPEAKER_02]: I send them all the things that I’ve added to there.

30:04.049 –> 30:08.374
[SPEAKER_02]: It gives them a created list and it’ll be pre- I think this is relating to ads.

30:08.414 –> 30:09.615
[SPEAKER_02]: This is email.

30:09.635 –> 30:10.536
[SPEAKER_02]: This is personnel.

30:10.576 –> 30:13.459
[SPEAKER_02]: This is this is to do with mindset.

30:13.499 –> 30:16.242
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I’ve had every single thing that I’m interested in.

30:16.322 –> 30:17.683
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it’s valuable into there.

30:18.044 –> 30:20.186
[SPEAKER_02]: And then my team, my shell at the whole business.

30:20.827 –> 30:22.428
[SPEAKER_02]: And they’ve all got access to it.

30:22.448 –> 30:23.189
[SPEAKER_02]: They can add to it.

30:23.229 –> 30:24.430
[SPEAKER_02]: But it’s mostly me doing it.

30:24.971 –> 30:30.837
[SPEAKER_02]: And they can then see an evolution of what I’m learning at the time

30:30.817 –> 30:34.422
[SPEAKER_02]: that are relevant to their job or where they’re in chastising.

30:34.903 –> 30:40.991
[SPEAKER_02]: But to be honest, we’ve been doing that about six months, and I wish I’d been doing that for 30 years.

30:41.051 –> 30:51.385
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m 52 now and I’ve forgotten more than I’ve ever learnt as it’s such thing, and I look back and how many thousands of notebooks have I had over the years written notes and then you lose them and you never go back to them.

30:51.766 –> 30:54.610
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, with AI, it’s all available.

30:54.630 –> 30:59.777
[SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve got the entire knowledge I’ve acquired over the last six

30:59.757 –> 31:01.941
[SPEAKER_02]: and I wish I’d known that 30 years ago.

31:02.461 –> 31:04.445
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that’s such a brilliant use of notion.

31:05.006 –> 31:05.607
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that.

31:05.847 –> 31:14.702
[SPEAKER_00]: And a great way of creating like a company library of knowledge that isn’t SOPs, it’s the level above that.

31:15.002 –> 31:15.463
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that.

31:16.264 –> 31:21.613
[SPEAKER_00]: The carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

31:21.593 –> 31:30.952
[SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve got, I don’t know if it reduced our carbon footprint, but funny story, we had, we had Fort Namemasons come and see us because they wanted us to to manufacture some product for them.

31:31.633 –> 31:41.273
[SPEAKER_02]: And they sent them at the five of their buyers came out, visited the factory, and the thing they were most excited about and they took pictures of, it was our recycling system.

31:41.253 –> 31:48.224
[SPEAKER_02]: So out the back of our one of our fulfilment warehouse, we have all these bailing machines.

31:48.705 –> 31:53.213
[SPEAKER_02]: So one does it for plastics and the other one big machine.

31:53.253 –> 31:56.899
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s probably about the size of three large pallets I suppose, something like that.

31:57.600 –> 31:59.263
[SPEAKER_02]: And that bail’s up the cardboard.

31:59.283 –> 32:05.573
[SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve gone from a situation where we were spending thousands of pounds each month having our rubbish taken away.

32:05.553 –> 32:26.548
[SPEAKER_02]: to now we get a Laurie collection every week or so they come in and they collect a full Laurie load of cardboard that’s all being bailed up with cell rats or the recycling thing and it’s so it will we make a small amount of effort from it but it’s turned a big cost for us into something that’s now not costing us any money and is doing a bit for what we can do to for recycling and so on so

32:26.528 –> 32:29.391
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and for them, so we’re incredibly excited about that.

32:29.411 –> 32:35.899
[SPEAKER_02]: And they took loads of pictures, they took the pictures of these, and these, uh, could these bail see, they were powered like three or four high, this big area.

32:35.919 –> 32:37.801
[SPEAKER_02]: I’m so, it’s a nice thing that we can do.

32:37.861 –> 32:44.149
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and it’s, and I think that’s where a sensible use of, um, of technology and, um, and so on.

32:44.189 –> 32:46.051
[SPEAKER_02]: I don’t understand why all companies don’t do it’s crazy.

32:46.091 –> 32:49.735
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s not, it’s not expensive to start and a new seller cardboard.

32:50.035 –> 32:57.726
[SPEAKER_00]: and presumably it’s a much easier way to manage all that waste, all those waste items when they’re compressed into a lovely tidy bail as well.

32:58.187 –> 33:10.704
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it’s in a bail in, I suppose the bail is about the size of a pallet, maybe a little bit smaller than a pallet, and they stack, and yes, it makes it super easy and they can sit outside.

33:10.744 –> 33:12.006
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn’t matter if they get wet.

33:12.247 –> 33:15.351
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I really recommend that as a solution to

33:15.668 –> 33:16.109
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that one.

33:16.129 –> 33:17.972
[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve never had that before and I think it’s brilliant.

33:18.614 –> 33:24.184
[SPEAKER_00]: Luke, before we say goodbye, though, could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and your business on the web and social?

33:24.725 –> 33:34.563
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you’ll get the website isvelentid.com and you will also find me on LinkedIn, so this is find me as Luke, bring on LinkedIn or on Instagram as well.

33:34.664 –> 33:39.212
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I’m Luke,

33:39.462 –> 33:40.063
[SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant league.

33:40.083 –> 33:41.667
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming on the show.

33:41.687 –> 33:50.348
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s been absolutely fascinating talking to you and I wish you all the luck in the world getting to your nine figure target in the next few years.

33:50.669 –> 33:53.736
[SPEAKER_00]: I’m sure it’s going to be a fascinating journey, but thank you so much for being here.

33:54.478 –> 33:54.758
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

33:54.778 –> 33:56.322
[SPEAKER_02]: I’d love to it really interesting into you.

33:56.342 –> 33:57.184
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.

34:03.003 –> 34:11.734
[SPEAKER_00]: fascinating, getting to chat with Luke there, let me know if you’d like me to get him back in a year or so, it’s time to find out how that growth plan is going.

34:12.755 –> 34:27.694
[SPEAKER_00]: Such clear work that he does in his role as the leader of the business, understanding where he wants it to go, what they’re going to be good at, where his role as a leader is in terms of shaping and building the business

34:27.674 –> 34:36.216
[SPEAKER_00]: Solving those business problems but in a really practical way plus some lots of really cool tips But a lot to get you thinking in that one.

34:36.717 –> 34:40.828
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I’ll be thinking about this chat with Luke for a good few weeks to come if not longer.

34:41.289 –> 34:42.713
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you’ve enjoyed it too

34:42.693 –> 34:49.925
[SPEAKER_00]: To get your hands on the notes from the episode, including those top tips and the things we mentioned, head over to ecommercemasterpland.com.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You can also use the short link ECMP.info for us at the number of this episode to go there as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the website, you can add yourself to our email list.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, please do it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Get yourself on our email list.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We’d love to have you join us.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you like this episode, then what my notes say, I’m to tell you to check out episode 531, which is one of our most popular episodes of 2025, with the brilliant Jamie from cookie haircare.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I’m also going to recommend that you have a listen to the episode that’s just a couple before this one that we did, or what would you do, episode?

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[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve Richard Chapel X of Jim Shark, where he is talking about how

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[SPEAKER_00]: You grow a business from eight figures to nine figures, which is the journey that Luke’s about to go on.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you listen to those two episodes back to back, I think we can safely say it will be a real surprise if Luke and his team don’t get to that point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So that’s the what would you do, I per se, we’ve rich chapel at episode 286, just a couple of episodes before this one.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you’re on WooCommerce and want to hear some other WooCommerce stories, then head to ECMP.info4-WooCommerce for all our episodes with WooCommerce people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode that you do of the e-commerce master plan.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Podcasts we love to have you listening in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners to succeed and thrive with their businesses.

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[SPEAKER_00]: including progressing along the path to net zero.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you know someone this show can help please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.