00:00.211 –> 00:08.054
[SPEAKER_00]: What you’ve got to realise is as a business grows and we’ve gone from two of us, you know, and our agency is supporting the business to over 50 people that we have employed.

00:08.194 –> 00:10.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Every single one of that person comes into the business.

00:10.175 –> 00:19.619
[SPEAKER_00]: There are no the human and they have different traits and you have to learn of how to communicate with those people and not just to get the most out of them but just to build teams that work brilliantly together.

00:22.254 –> 00:24.638
[SPEAKER_02]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

00:25.179 –> 00:29.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

00:29.786 –> 00:37.638
[SPEAKER_02]: Cutting through the hinder to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

00:40.956 –> 00:42.076
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.

00:42.096 –> 00:43.277
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s great to have you here.

00:43.357 –> 00:47.238
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

00:47.758 –> 00:53.520
[SPEAKER_01]: Huge thanks to Paul Ryzenov from Mage Cloud for introducing us to this brilliant guest.

00:53.640 –> 00:54.780
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Paul.

00:54.800 –> 00:55.660
[SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate it.

00:56.200 –> 00:59.041
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we’re chatting about men’s fashion.

00:59.061 –> 01:00.882
[SPEAKER_01]: We’re talking about community B-Corp.

01:01.502 –> 01:06.929
[SPEAKER_01]: tariffs and the dangers of it importing into the U.S. and how to then survive past that.

01:07.469 –> 01:13.897
[SPEAKER_01]: We’ll also be talking about what to do with the 10-year celebration in your business and a whole heap of other bits and pieces, too.

01:14.057 –> 01:16.240
[SPEAKER_01]: hugely interesting guest coming up for you all.

01:16.360 –> 01:19.724
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you listen to the end because you do want to hear his top tips.

01:25.529 –> 01:27.530
[SPEAKER_01]: And now to introduce our special guest.

01:27.710 –> 01:31.693
[SPEAKER_01]: James Caldale is the co-owner a marketing director at And Sons.

01:32.133 –> 01:36.496
[SPEAKER_01]: A fashion B-Corp brand selling vintage style clothing primarily men’s wear.

01:36.936 –> 01:45.482
[SPEAKER_01]: Founded in 2016, they now sell via their Shopify site, two stores in the UK and wholesale, doing eight figures in sales a year.

01:45.642 –> 01:46.342
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, James.

01:47.263 –> 01:47.943
[SPEAKER_00]: I’m Chloe Haydum.

01:48.884 –> 01:51.906
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m good, it’s a treat to have you on the show.

01:56.372 –> 01:57.493
[SPEAKER_00]: a good start.

01:58.074 –> 02:03.899
[SPEAKER_00]: Background for both Phil and I, who is the founder of Anson’s, was agency.

02:04.179 –> 02:05.981
[SPEAKER_00]: So we both came from an agency background.

02:06.021 –> 02:07.803
[SPEAKER_00]: One was a branding agency creative agency.

02:08.623 –> 02:11.926
[SPEAKER_00]: And Phil’s was photography production and CGI.

02:12.767 –> 02:15.449
[SPEAKER_00]: And he commas for us was for simply drawn

02:16.430 –> 02:18.251
[SPEAKER_00]: We were drawn to because of budget.

02:18.851 –> 02:41.540
[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to launch Phil had the idea for Anne Sun’s had been getting sound pulling and it actually came to me originally for the branding to help him on the branding and I did fall in love, genuinely fell in love with the early samples, the idea of this layered look that he’d been searching for for years from various e-commerce websites and brands.

02:43.363 –> 03:01.650
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just thought we were such a cool concept, and I was at an age of 35 at the time, I was at an age where I thought I was starting to feel a little bit lost by the high street, so I really did really resonate with me, I guess it’s what I’m saying, and but because of us both still being agency owners and doing everything on a shoe string,

03:02.230 –> 03:04.932
[SPEAKER_00]: The only option we had was to open an e-commerce website.

03:05.272 –> 03:18.239
[SPEAKER_00]: There was no opportunity at that point to do a brick and mortar stall or anything other than the cheapest possible website, hence the $80 that we started with and we found Shopify.

03:19.239 –> 03:25.383
[SPEAKER_00]: which is obviously now for us 10 years on the, you know, the, I think one of the leading econ platform.

03:25.423 –> 03:28.625
[SPEAKER_00]: So that’s how econ kind of found us really.

03:28.645 –> 03:36.530
[SPEAKER_00]: It was this need state of how do we launch a business as quickly as possible with, you know, having both come from created backgrounds.

03:36.570 –> 03:40.773
[SPEAKER_00]: We had fantastic content and we had fantastic photography and

03:41.413 –> 03:49.580
[SPEAKER_00]: and a great brand and tone of voice but we need something to get us off the ground so that’s how we found ourselves in any commas.

03:50.621 –> 03:54.024
[SPEAKER_01]: I think anyone who looks at your website or your shops

03:54.951 –> 03:58.294
[SPEAKER_01]: We’ll go, of course, they both came from creative backgrounds.

03:58.314 –> 04:06.981
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes so much sense now because the style and the design of both iterations of the brand are so strong.

04:07.542 –> 04:14.087
[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess I can imagine if the Shopify solution wasn’t there and I totally remembered 10 years ago there were those.

04:14.287 –> 04:20.512
[SPEAKER_01]: We created a Shopify store in three days and sold $1,000 and all those blog posts that we all poured over at the time.

04:20.532 –> 04:21.673
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is insane.

04:22.914 –> 04:36.782
[SPEAKER_01]: If you hadn’t have had such a simple straightforward tool to use, if you’d have been trying to do it on a Magento build or an acting build or whatever else, you’d have got lost, I think, completely with that creative background, and you would never have actually got live potentially.

04:37.543 –> 04:38.504
[SPEAKER_00]: No, potentially not.

04:38.564 –> 04:48.876
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in fact, we were the agency I was running, we were predominantly brand and creative, but we did dip into an online, more sort of marketing sites, I guess you would call them.

04:49.477 –> 04:54.883
[SPEAKER_00]: So we even had people that were available to us, but Shopify was definitely what made it.

04:55.697 –> 05:20.441
[SPEAKER_00]: the quickest point to entry and you know back in the day we were looking at it saying well it was just simply lots of lovely imagery in a square box with a buy button and that was sort of all this is the this is the right move this is the the right thing to do so um that’s like yeah that’s that’s that’s Shopify for you I think so 10 years on obviously a lot has happened and tell us a bit more about the business as it is today

05:23.947 –> 05:28.029
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are UK-based, we’re based in a small town called Chelten.

05:28.049 –> 05:31.710
[SPEAKER_00]: I think known really for the horse racing, I think that’s about it.

05:32.210 –> 05:38.072
[SPEAKER_00]: Another brand, another clothing brand that is rather successful, called Superdry.

05:38.612 –> 05:48.076
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’re based there, we have our first shop, is actually here, our brick and mortar shop is based in Cheltenham, and our other one is in Soho.

05:48.096 –> 05:50.397
[SPEAKER_00]: So, as an online business,

05:51.815 –> 06:01.298
[SPEAKER_00]: saw a lot of growth early doors in the U.S. a lot of the aesthetics of the brand and the inspiration around the clothing came from America.

06:01.999 –> 06:10.542
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had a very Western workware feel, we’d spent time out there, we love the culture, we love the style of it all.

06:11.182 –> 06:14.163
[SPEAKER_00]: So the U.S. quite quickly adopted us with very little

06:14.854 –> 06:18.637
[SPEAKER_00]: performance approach to it, we just simply organically grew in the US.

06:18.657 –> 06:27.284
[SPEAKER_00]: To the point we ended up about halfway through so full five years ago, we ended up with a distribution center in the US as things started to grow.

06:28.084 –> 06:33.048
[SPEAKER_00]: And until last year, the US is all was about 30% of our revenue.

06:34.429 –> 06:37.132
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously Trump changed that quite.

06:37.232 –> 06:39.974
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the Trump and tariff scenario?

06:39.994 –> 06:42.035
[SPEAKER_00]: Trump is a tariff scenario.

06:43.272 –> 06:51.555
[SPEAKER_00]: But like any econ brand, and I guess still very entrepreneurial and still very grounded, we have pivoted.

06:51.775 –> 06:55.937
[SPEAKER_00]: So we know we have a really strong audience in the US, and we still have that.

06:56.177 –> 07:02.239
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have had to look at other markets to help build and fill the gap that’s been left behind.

07:02.860 –> 07:06.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, the tariffs make a lot of our garment.

07:06.825 –> 07:08.366
[SPEAKER_00]: unrealistic for a lot of people to buy.

07:08.846 –> 07:09.927
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re not pocting that money.

07:10.027 –> 07:25.376
[SPEAKER_00]: We are simply passing it over to the US government and it’s been painful to watch because it was such a growth market for us and we really enjoyed having such a strongholding in it for a small brand, you know, in America.

07:25.596 –> 07:26.857
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s a real shame

07:27.677 –> 07:31.699
[SPEAKER_01]: Would it be fair to say that America is active but on pause?

07:31.879 –> 07:36.861
[SPEAKER_01]: So there’s no, you’re not proactively going at it, but you’re still serving the customers who want to buy for me.

07:37.141 –> 07:37.541
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.

07:37.581 –> 07:39.061
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the site still exists.

07:39.102 –> 07:43.003
[SPEAKER_00]: The commerce, we’ve got a separate site since having the distribution center out there.

07:43.423 –> 07:44.984
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s still functioning.

07:45.004 –> 07:50.666
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re still marked into the Mon every other channel, other than really the paid channels, because it’s just too costly right now.

07:51.166 –> 07:53.527
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are making sure all of our customers are well looked after.

07:54.047 –> 07:55.188
[SPEAKER_00]: We have reduced

07:56.155 –> 08:05.140
[SPEAKER_00]: the pricing is much as we can, you know, it cost to us to ensure that our customers aren’t being completely done over by all, but it’s there.

08:05.300 –> 08:07.741
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s been a real challenge in a real shame, I think.

08:08.825 –> 08:17.731
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it seems to have caused nothing but pain and problems on both sides of the Atlantic and further afield as well.

08:17.911 –> 08:28.579
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s, yeah, that we’ve had a few interviews with companies in America, Rita, as an America who’ve been massively hard hit by as well, huge, huge issues, huge cutbacks, too.

08:29.980 –> 08:35.063
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have the downturn in the US sales, presumably you’ve already got the products being created.

08:37.485 –> 08:38.806
[SPEAKER_01]: keeping the stock moving.

08:39.767 –> 09:00.527
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a good question, so as I say, the downturn has happened, but we’ve looked at other markets, so we’d already been warming up a number of markets last year anyway, without knowing the tariffs were coming, places such as Australia, Europe, because obviously Europe for us we had Brexit, which also had the similar effect, so we’ve been slowly building up

09:01.268 –> 09:10.476
[SPEAKER_00]: certain countries in Europe, in particular Germany, as growing markets, Australia, like I said, is another growth market force.

09:10.876 –> 09:15.220
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve doubled down over there, we’ve got the pay channels out there with…

09:15.815 –> 09:22.558
[SPEAKER_00]: putting together dedicated website for the Australian market because of course their seasons are different to us.

09:23.338 –> 09:32.262
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s great in a way because not only were able to hopefully pivot and fill the gap that the America left behind, we are also able to sell out of

09:38.505 –> 09:46.489
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I used to this line when we first started was, well, one of the views was it’s money whilst you sleep, because we’re a 24-7 business for online isn’t that fantastic.

09:47.089 –> 09:51.632
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other was, it’s always cold somewhere, and that is true to a degree.

09:52.132 –> 10:01.296
[SPEAKER_00]: So, now with Australia, we’re able to provide them with a, you know, our winter season, all of our winter content, and we’ve just, um, flipped it.

10:01.897 –> 10:03.858
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that also avoids us having to do,

10:04.758 –> 10:13.640
[SPEAKER_00]: more marked down to clear that excess stock that we have left over from the American downturn and also stock that you have left over generally from river seasons.

10:14.520 –> 10:19.981
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you if you play it right a fashion play in Australia can be a bit of a margin win.

10:20.481 –> 10:30.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously it’s a bit bit more expensive to get the product there, but it can be that margin winner for you can sell what would have had to go into sale at full price because the seasons don’t match up yet.

10:30.302 –> 10:31.963
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, yeah, it can be.

10:32.563 –> 10:33.203
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s a theory.

10:33.744 –> 10:34.745
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that’s the theory.

10:34.785 –> 10:50.112
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, before we, I could ask you about 20 million questions about what we’ve talked about so far, James, but before we hit the record button, you said one of your great passions at the moment has been shifting the business from being custom-driven to community-driven.

10:50.192 –> 10:55.315
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think most brands are struggling to be custom-driven, and you’ve gone beyond that.

10:55.335 –> 10:59.357
[SPEAKER_01]: So what is the differentiation between custom-driven and community-driven?

11:00.113 –> 11:00.974
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s a good question.

11:01.754 –> 11:05.858
[SPEAKER_00]: For us, we started our, the entire business started on Kickstarter.

11:06.218 –> 11:16.707
[SPEAKER_00]: I don’t know if you recall, it’s still around, but I think there’s just many more now, but we love the side there of creating a community back to business in many ways.

11:17.307 –> 11:19.929
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was an opportunity to test the market and you see,

11:20.730 –> 11:23.352
[SPEAKER_00]: people liked what we were selling and if there was an audience for it.

11:24.113 –> 11:31.739
[SPEAKER_00]: So we raised 50,000 in on Kickstarter to get a successful project in those in those early days, 10 years ago now.

11:32.479 –> 11:45.249
[SPEAKER_00]: And from that point onwards, we kind of assumed for the doors open, we’ve got a lovely $80 Shopify website, we’ve picked up a few hundred people from the Kickstarter campaign.

11:46.070 –> 11:47.070
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to explode

11:51.082 –> 11:53.427
[SPEAKER_00]: There were no lightning strikes for the first few years.

11:53.447 –> 11:55.371
[SPEAKER_00]: We still run our agencies around that time.

11:55.792 –> 11:58.998
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was always a kind of community business.

11:59.059 –> 12:01.484
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I mean by from customer to community is

12:02.550 –> 12:08.072
[SPEAKER_00]: We have always been helping on the customer being the center of our universe.

12:08.132 –> 12:12.794
[SPEAKER_00]: So we, even in the early days, had live chat with real human beings.

12:12.834 –> 12:16.835
[SPEAKER_00]: It was me, filled with answer every question and comment on Instagram.

12:17.656 –> 12:23.598
[SPEAKER_00]: We were a little bit obsessed with our customer base and we wanted to know everything there was to know about them.

12:24.118 –> 12:27.059
[SPEAKER_00]: And we still do now, I still read every single trust pilot review.

12:27.079 –> 12:29.941
[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got, and I think it’s nearing 30,000.

12:30.521 –> 12:31.081
[SPEAKER_00]: Good unbad.

12:31.721 –> 12:41.326
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, it was always understanding what they liked, what they didn’t like, what the motivations were for buying, and what, but more importantly, the connection they made with the brand.

12:42.266 –> 12:48.149
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I talk of communities, what we started to see with our customer base was, it was a certain demographic.

12:49.112 –> 12:57.335
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a certain age group, both when Phil and I feel a little older than I am, but both find ourselves in a position where brands were no longer talking to us.

12:57.835 –> 13:02.497
[SPEAKER_00]: We felt a little alienated when we walked into that cool, independent men’s workshop in the town.

13:03.437 –> 13:05.778
[SPEAKER_00]: And it turns out there’s a lot more guys that feel like we do.

13:06.418 –> 13:15.922
[SPEAKER_00]: So the community part comes from that deep understanding of what it is they want, and it is beyond clothing.

13:16.743 –> 13:31.699
[SPEAKER_00]: Cows, yes, of course, are the catalyst on the connection that they make, but what we’ve built here now is is this community and we’ve done that through connecting them, like the weirdest thing with our businesses that we like their best kept secret.

13:32.457 –> 13:43.623
[SPEAKER_00]: So they don’t want to recommend us to their friends because they give away the secret, the secret that they’ve fought this amazing product and they look and they get in comments on how great they look and how they’re feeling great.

13:43.643 –> 13:46.164
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the other unlock for us is how it made them feel.

13:46.644 –> 13:48.485
[SPEAKER_00]: These are guys that don’t talk about their feelings.

13:48.505 –> 13:52.528
[SPEAKER_00]: They have 40 to 60 year old men that have been told their entire life to not talk.

13:52.948 –> 13:54.889
[SPEAKER_00]: Not talk about their feelings, not talk to one another.

13:55.269 –> 13:56.950
[SPEAKER_00]: Every other guy is in competition with them.

13:57.530 –> 13:59.191
[SPEAKER_00]: but it turns out they are desperate too.

13:59.671 –> 14:10.017
[SPEAKER_00]: So the moment we gave them the opportunity to talk, even to us and those early stages of those live chat conversations I used to have, I used to have conversation with guys and nothing to do with clothes.

14:10.257 –> 14:19.843
[SPEAKER_00]: It was about how they’re feeling that they’ve gone through that day and then they’d, you know, they’d tell me, what sorry the apologies for swearing, the what they’ve gone through that day, that was kind of

14:20.443 –> 14:48.674
[SPEAKER_00]: the start of this and then what we did if we connected them so we built private Facebook groups we got WhatsApp threads we run retreats and get away for these guys every year and it is absolutely fascinating to bring these guys together in an environment where they feel comfortable and environment where they’re open to talk and of course close bring them together that’s a common thread for for all it’s used upon but they are desperate to talk

14:49.390 –> 14:50.291
[SPEAKER_00]: And that’s our community.

14:50.391 –> 14:56.734
[SPEAKER_00]: They have all now posting each other, what they’re wearing that day and how they’re wearing a garment.

14:57.335 –> 15:11.863
[SPEAKER_00]: I see genuinely I see products sales off the back of a private post on the Facebook group where they they show off their latest purchase and and guys go ahead and buy it is a real it’s an incredible thing to watch and that’s for us if what

15:12.627 –> 15:23.677
[SPEAKER_00]: we believe is one of the biggest strengths of the brand aside from the product, of course, it is this this this community that these guys so desperately want to be part of and it kind of manages itself.

15:24.803 –> 15:35.829
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s, having spent a few other people who’ve achieved that kind of ultimate end goal of the customer actually talking to themselves, you know, is, is incredibly hard to achieve.

15:36.349 –> 15:39.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you found it’s about kind of forcing the conversation to make it happen?

15:39.831 –> 15:43.833
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it more about just creating a space in which they can have the conversation?

15:44.433 –> 15:47.375
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s exactly that, it’s the space is given them permission.

15:47.895 –> 15:50.977
[SPEAKER_00]: Permissions are really good word, I think, for lots of brands.

15:51.775 –> 16:00.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Once you give somebody permission to talk, give somebody permission to wear that new garment or try it with something else, it changes everything.

16:00.501 –> 16:02.262
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that’s what we’ve given them.

16:02.282 –> 16:06.005
[SPEAKER_00]: They’re not an opportunity in a place to talk.

16:06.085 –> 16:11.728
[SPEAKER_00]: As I said earlier, it’s a round of shared love for and sons, but there is no hard side in there whatsoever.

16:11.928 –> 16:15.671
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s just making them a place to exist.

16:16.940 –> 16:25.581
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously setting up a Facebook group and inviting them into it and sparking some conversations is a relatively cheap thing to do.

16:26.182 –> 16:31.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Creating a customer retreat is quite a different element on the P&L.

16:31.442 –> 16:38.224
[SPEAKER_01]: So do you, don’t worry, I’m not going to ask for the film that’s in Bolts, but for you, is that a loss-making marketing spend?

16:38.424 –> 16:39.804
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it need to break even?

16:39.844 –> 16:41.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it a profit source for you?

16:41.184 –> 16:44.365
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you view that in the nuts and bolts thing?

16:47.008 –> 17:03.981
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s safe to say it’s loss making and we’re okay with that, because you can create scenarios whether it’s an event at the store or you can do a sale event where you slash prices and drive traffic.

17:04.985 –> 17:10.867
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is something really quite magical about bringing these guys together in a really cool environment.

17:10.887 –> 17:14.948
[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve taken to a place down in Danyne Cornwall called Seven Thrise.

17:15.548 –> 17:19.149
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is the most basic but beautiful place.

17:19.429 –> 17:20.930
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a registered rainforest.

17:21.810 –> 17:23.730
[SPEAKER_00]: and it’s just incredible.

17:23.810 –> 17:43.695
[SPEAKER_00]: So we see it yes is a marketing opportunity, the content we get from its fantastic and the feedback we get from those customers and of course those customers go on to tell lots of their friends what they just did that weekend and the association with unsunders for it and we’ll always have a little store there with a few the few pieces maybe an exclusive launch or something but

17:44.353 –> 17:46.054
[SPEAKER_00]: For us, it’s not about that.

17:46.174 –> 17:55.980
[SPEAKER_00]: It was purely to be able to do something that would connect people together and watching the results, because we do a lot around men’s work.

17:56.020 –> 18:02.264
[SPEAKER_00]: We do fun stuff, like we do campfire conversations, it’s great food, but we also do some men’s work.

18:02.484 –> 18:07.347
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you again, see a guy come along who has never talked to anything like it.

18:08.207 –> 18:16.738
[SPEAKER_00]: one within three days to watch that person transform and hopefully go on to do, you know, something with it later on is worth more to us.

18:16.758 –> 18:19.662
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, it depends on your question in a long roundabout way, sorry.

18:20.403 –> 18:24.428
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s not about the money it’s about, yeah, it’s about the opportunity.

18:25.556 –> 18:27.777
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I love that, I was brilliant answer.

18:27.817 –> 18:34.959
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the other thing we have to talk, well, the other two things we have to talk about is one you’ve reached 10 years old, which is very exciting.

18:35.099 –> 18:43.322
[SPEAKER_01]: And secondly, this year you achieved B-Corp status, which I’ll preface that asking you all about that, by saying we’ve had a number of businesses on this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: this podcast who have been B-Corp’s.

18:47.426 –> 18:53.854
[SPEAKER_01]: But most of them kind of started from the beginning of their existence with a B-Corp mindset, which you didn’t.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So how did you found the B-Corp progress?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess any advice for anyone else is heading on the same route.

19:04.118 –> 19:06.921
[SPEAKER_00]: weirdly we did have a B-court mindset.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We just didn’t know about B-court.

19:09.263 –> 19:09.983
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really shown.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve been very guilty from our entire, from the very, very beginning where we made hard-wearing a salvage denim, you know, organic cotton.

19:23.635 –> 19:24.556
[SPEAKER_00]: We did it from the off.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was just we just saw, well that’s what we’ve got no background in fashion whatsoever.

19:29.460 –> 19:30.221
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably should have mentioned

19:32.097 –> 19:38.920
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve always done something that we would want to see from a brand, not what the fashion industry would typically do.

19:39.540 –> 19:50.225
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve often paid more for our garments than probably some fashion brands do, and our margins therefore are not what they probably should be if you spoke to somebody in fashion.

19:51.245 –> 19:53.726
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve always invested in quality clothing.

19:53.746 –> 19:55.687
[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve always had this notion that

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[SPEAKER_00]: close should be worn to death and repaired and repurposed and sold on and passed down to generations, which is another big part of our brand.

20:05.495 –> 20:12.480
[SPEAKER_00]: And we’ve been doing it, we just didn’t talk about it and we didn’t document it or put it into a process.

20:13.200 –> 20:18.884
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we realised we were actually doing a pretty good job and we were watching other brands, not even just in the fashion industry,

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[SPEAKER_00]: that would come along and we thought, well, they’ve got this B-Coup status and I swear we’re doing a great job of it and it turns out we were but it’s been

20:29.421 –> 20:41.805
[SPEAKER_00]: Nearly three years from the point of which we first went on the journey of going through the accreditation, we worked with an amazing agency that helped us with the application.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We had support from B-Corp, but also from an agency that we were working with, and we found that actually it was more case of documenting all the good things we were already doing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So they call it green hushing, that instead of green washing, we were green hushing.

20:56.834 –> 21:07.997
[SPEAKER_00]: We weren’t talking about it because we were concerned that without that backup in that fact and support, we wouldn’t be able to quantify what we were doing, but it turns out we were.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Although not having a sort of B-corp mindset, we were doing all the right things and I think that’s why despite it taking a long time to go through the application,

21:20.529 –> 21:25.269
[SPEAKER_00]: It was more case of us getting our ducks in a row than it was transforming what we were doing.

21:25.851 –> 21:39.979
[SPEAKER_00]: But the firm belief from us here, and I think it’s very much what would be called believing, as well as what I’ve loved is the transformation, the things that we have changed in order to fit the criteria, have always had them positive impact on the business.

21:40.679 –> 21:53.927
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I which sounds obvious I guess, but most people think if you go down the route of trying to do something that is going to fundamentally support change, it’s going to cost you money, it’s going to impact margin, it’s going to do something that negative to the business.

21:55.037 –> 22:02.040
[SPEAKER_00]: everything we’ve done in terms of the investment and the people that we’ve got here in all the initiatives we’ve built around it, have genuinely benefited the business.

22:02.100 –> 22:03.300
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s a win-win, really.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Love that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I said do we talk about the 10 years as well?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What is, what do you say?

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[SPEAKER_01]: How are you going to celebrate?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that’s always a difficult thing in a business.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We’ve got this great anniversary.

22:15.085 –> 22:18.846
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we actually make it worth celebrating, I suppose?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you kind of

22:24.111 –> 22:28.757
[SPEAKER_01]: We’ve got a new website, but it’s more than that, isn’t it?

22:28.817 –> 22:30.780
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a 10 year anniversary is a bit more than that.

22:31.501 –> 22:41.214
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, I think, for us, it’s a bit of a milestone, really, of, I guess, the achievers, what you don’t do in business and what we spend and what I think we’re almost,

22:42.035 –> 22:46.856
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think every entrepreneur business owner’s guilty of it is, we never focus on the positives.

22:47.296 –> 22:56.018
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything for us is about the hardship sometimes, or the negative points that you really – because you’re trying to stop problem solving, fix all the time.

22:56.738 –> 23:02.300
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you sit back and you look at ten years, ten years, the long time, you know, my son was born.

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[SPEAKER_00]: on the launch party of Anson.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So he also turns 10 this year and, you know, you look back on history and over that 10 year period and all that we’ve achieved and the people that we’ve dressed in the customers that we’ve now and this community that we’ve built.

23:19.751 –> 23:23.594
[SPEAKER_00]: I don’t know, I think it’s a celebration in itself, you know, we’re hoping to

23:24.314 –> 23:41.429
[SPEAKER_00]: publish a book which documents our 10 years in business will be producing a limited edition collection around it which will bring back some of our original pieces that we’ve we no longer sell but in a new form and I think we want to make it a

23:42.670 –> 23:54.775
[SPEAKER_00]: Much about the customers is possible, so we’re already speaking to a lot of our customers around their journey with unsums and their their story behind why they, you know, when they first found us and and yeah, the journey they’ve been on with us.

23:57.616 –> 24:02.397
[SPEAKER_02]: E-commerce master plan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

24:02.537 –> 24:03.858
[SPEAKER_02]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It’s time for the top tips round.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I love this section because it gives me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking up businesses to the next level.

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[SPEAKER_01]: James, are you ready for the top tips?

24:23.090 –> 24:23.370
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the book top tip.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

24:33.178 –> 24:37.762
[SPEAKER_00]: The one for me is a book called Surrounded by Idiots.

24:39.198 –> 24:53.548
[SPEAKER_00]: which is a fascinating book and it is based on historic fundamentals of putting people into categories and it’s done through colors and it’s done you’ve got

24:54.322 –> 25:02.312
[SPEAKER_00]: people that yellow color would be somebody that if they’re optimistic and delivers good news and positivity but really struggles with anything negative.

25:02.713 –> 25:09.621
[SPEAKER_00]: So it puts people into four categories and four colors and the fundamental thing for it is not so much defining what people are like.

25:09.661 –> 25:11.424
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s how you communicate with those people.

25:12.144 –> 25:22.269
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the origins of the story, the story behind the reason for the title of the book, surrounded by idiots, is that the guy himself was a consultant who wrote it, and was working with a founder.

25:22.910 –> 25:25.511
[SPEAKER_00]: And this founder too, and he said, I’m surrounded by idiots.

25:26.151 –> 25:29.253
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he could not understand what the finance team were talking about.

25:29.473 –> 25:31.674
[SPEAKER_00]: He couldn’t understand what the merchandise team were talking about.

25:31.914 –> 25:33.175
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they spoke a different language.

25:34.143 –> 25:37.307
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, you’re not surrounded by idiots, you’re just not talking the same language.

25:37.847 –> 25:46.917
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you’ve got to realize is as a business grows and we’ve gone from two of us, you know, and our agency is supporting the business to over 50 people that we have employed.

25:47.639 –> 25:49.461
[SPEAKER_00]: every single one of that person comes into the business.

25:50.122 –> 25:59.593
[SPEAKER_00]: There are another human and they have different traits and you have to learn of how to communicate with those people and not just to get the most out of them, but just to build teams that work brilliantly together.

26:00.193 –> 26:05.840
[SPEAKER_00]: And surrounded by the, it was firstly gave me some really good tools to implement that.

26:06.662 –> 26:20.485
[SPEAKER_00]: But the big thing for me was it, it’s spelled out how different people are and how that using that same narrative to different people doesn’t work and more from the not, it’s probably my problem that it is their problem.

26:23.546 –> 26:25.266
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, unfortunately true.

26:27.287 –> 26:33.068
[SPEAKER_01]: The traffic top tip which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves.

26:34.229 –> 26:39.650
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what, we are a fashion brand to begin with, but we’re a team of content creators.

26:39.810 –> 26:41.611
[SPEAKER_00]: We all come from creative background.

26:41.671 –> 26:43.291
[SPEAKER_00]: We love creating things.

26:43.991 –> 26:54.193
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and I know it’s having a huge resurgence, but I think it’s the world moves to a digital realm and the introduction of AI.

26:55.133 –> 26:57.554
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s for me, it’s Prince Paper.

26:59.128 –> 27:17.349
[SPEAKER_00]: I came, my first business was a traditional design agency and we printed things and it was wonderful and I loved it and I loved the smell of paper and I love something that stays, you know, an email lands in your inbox amongst a hundred others and gets lost if it either unerives.

27:18.980 –> 27:20.920
[SPEAKER_00]: We send out thousands of parcels a month.

27:21.440 –> 27:28.722
[SPEAKER_00]: We can very easily put something in that parcel that is something for somebody to do as it sits and spend five minutes for the coffee to read.

27:29.962 –> 27:32.182
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don’t think people are doing enough of it.

27:32.522 –> 27:33.502
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it’s not measurable.

27:34.163 –> 27:37.863
[SPEAKER_00]: You can pack it full of QR code if you wish, but it’s not that measurable.

27:38.223 –> 27:44.944
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know, even anecdotally, from customers, how important is to receive that booklet or that postcard

27:49.710 –> 27:58.972
[SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree with you and I’m going to resist going off on one of my papers or some rants because you just did it far more eloquently than I will manage today.

27:58.992 –> 28:09.835
[SPEAKER_01]: To all top tips, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug-in, a phone app or just a way of working, is there a call at little tool you use that makes you and your team at more efficient from day to day?

28:11.316 –> 28:11.936
[SPEAKER_00]: For me.

28:13.433 –> 28:15.514
[SPEAKER_00]: best tool that we found in this business.

28:15.674 –> 28:33.440
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, as we’ve grown with not being particularly process driven people because naturally we’re creatives and we just want to create stuff is the platform called Assama, it’s a project management tool or planning tool, whatever you want to call it, it is our Bible.

28:33.700 –> 28:38.602
[SPEAKER_00]: It contains everything from an and for me in particular, particularly with the marketing and

28:39.702 –> 28:45.052
[SPEAKER_00]: The overall business in mind, I can get a really top level view of everything that’s happening across our markeding channels.

28:45.834 –> 28:49.440
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I wish to, I can really dive in and get the detail from it, but it’s here.

28:50.234 –> 28:50.794
[SPEAKER_00]: great tool.

28:50.834 –> 28:56.619
[SPEAKER_00]: The one thing I will say and this is speaking just personally because I have I’m not an organized person.

28:56.879 –> 28:59.761
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not a professor of in person whatsoever.

29:00.301 –> 29:02.783
[SPEAKER_00]: You need really good people to run those things.

29:03.083 –> 29:05.965
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can have all the platforms and all all the apps in the world.

29:06.465 –> 29:11.509
[SPEAKER_00]: But if the inputs rubbish, the output will be rubbish and we found that earlier.

29:12.510 –> 29:18.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it’s definitely one of those tools that if you don’t use it right, it’s shockingly bad.

29:20.938 –> 29:21.938
[SPEAKER_00]: So true, thank you.

29:22.858 –> 29:27.419
[SPEAKER_01]: Carbon top tip, what’s your favourite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

29:27.459 –> 29:31.040
[SPEAKER_01]: And I should say as a newly qualified B-Corp, I’m expecting good things here.

29:32.320 –> 29:34.440
[SPEAKER_00]: You fit me on the spot next, it’s a cool part.

29:34.820 –> 29:49.163
[SPEAKER_00]: Follow business where I’d like my operations director in here right now, but I’m actually really, I’m making great quality clothing and giving people the access to our pre-loved platform, for example, which is where they can resell their

29:51.356 –> 29:57.578
[SPEAKER_00]: and offering repair services and ways to repair your clothing as part of our content.

29:58.218 –> 30:05.520
[SPEAKER_00]: We always believe the bush is a sustainable thing we could do is produce great clothing and know that it will stay in circulation for as long as possible.

30:06.400 –> 30:15.142
[SPEAKER_00]: From a more operational perspective, I think the big shift for us from those early days where we were very reactive and we were

30:16.349 –> 30:20.892
[SPEAKER_00]: not really thinking about because you can’t, you just got to get products in people’s hands, right?

30:22.333 –> 30:37.163
[SPEAKER_00]: Was, you know, we worked with UK suppliers, but we worked with suppliers overseas, and the big shift for us was moving as much away from air freight as we could to, you know, to slow shipping methods, to reduce our carbon footprint.

30:38.164 –> 30:41.326
[SPEAKER_00]: But that takes time and it takes a hell of a lot of

30:44.128 –> 30:53.213
[SPEAKER_00]: if we’re relying on those good arriving at a certain point in the season, ahead of launch, ready for ready for photographing, we have to be 12 months in advance every time.

30:53.794 –> 31:00.017
[SPEAKER_00]: And as we weren’t and even now we’re not hugely big in wholesale, we don’t work that far in advance.

31:00.798 –> 31:06.061
[SPEAKER_00]: To kind of typical fashion brands will be working two seasons ahead because that’s what the wholesale is need.

31:06.521 –> 31:10.904
[SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve had to really change how we operate in order to get good into the country a lot

31:13.033 –> 31:17.095
[SPEAKER_00]: and that’s taken us a long time as taking us a number of years that the impact is a huge.

31:18.095 –> 31:20.516
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like we’re just switched to doing four seasons ahead.

31:20.536 –> 31:24.238
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any idea the design team and the buyers are just…

31:25.446 –> 31:32.689
[SPEAKER_01]: it’s imploding and then the finance team gets wind of it and they implode as well on the cash flow side.

31:33.509 –> 31:38.572
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, great to hear it’s worth doing once you’ve actually made those changes.

31:39.052 –> 31:41.113
[SPEAKER_01]: James, it’s been an absolute pleasure chatting with you.

31:41.153 –> 31:47.876
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you please at the audience know where they can find and sons and you should they want to track you all down online and social

31:49.213 –> 31:53.735
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I’m useless with my own personal marketing.

31:53.815 –> 31:57.216
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can find me on LinkedIn, obviously, Jane, just search for James Kader.

31:57.796 –> 32:01.358
[SPEAKER_00]: Our main website for UK customers is Anson’s.co.uk.

32:01.978 –> 32:04.699
[SPEAKER_00]: DedicatedUSsite is Anson’s.us.

32:05.460 –> 32:11.802
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to just get a flavor of Anson’s, you know, of what we do, your best bet will be Instagram.

32:11.882 –> 32:16.564
[SPEAKER_00]: So it’s at Anson’s so A&D, S-O-N-S, UK.

32:17.603 –> 32:18.825
[SPEAKER_01]: simple as that everyone.

32:19.225 –> 32:21.248
[SPEAKER_01]: James, thank you so much for being on the show.

32:21.268 –> 32:24.912
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s been fascinating chatting with you and thanks for sharing stuff with the audience.

32:25.413 –> 32:26.034
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.

32:32.019 –> 32:37.622
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, listening to James’s take on everything and how they’ve gone about building the business and building that community.

32:37.642 –> 32:40.723
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to assume they’re going to be here for at least another 10 years.

32:41.423 –> 32:44.004
[SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating to chat with James there.

32:44.885 –> 32:47.506
[SPEAKER_01]: And we’ve talked about the big stuff.

32:47.526 –> 32:51.628
[SPEAKER_01]: We just talked about some of the more nitty gritty stuff around the tariffs and everything as well.

32:51.948 –> 32:53.729
[SPEAKER_01]: Hope you’ve got plenty from that episode.

32:53.869 –> 32:55.670
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get your hands on the notes.

32:56.510 –> 33:01.035
[SPEAKER_01]: including those top tips and the links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterpland.com.

33:01.415 –> 33:07.861
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our direct-to-episode short links, that’s ECMP.mfo4sash the number of this episode to get there.

33:08.442 –> 33:14.267
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you get to the website, please add yourself to the e-commerce, no, the Chloe Thomas.

33:14.948 –> 33:15.468
[SPEAKER_01]: newsletter.

33:15.508 –> 33:19.330
[SPEAKER_01]: We rebranded it and I forgot, been a long day, everyone been a long day.

33:20.250 –> 33:23.811
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you’ll get all the other stuff we share to help you improve your business.

33:23.851 –> 33:38.136
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you like this episode, then what I’ve got written in my notes is that you should check out episode 504 with Nick Hussie talking about his men’s fashion business frame jacket, FRHM, which is all about the pre order,

33:40.197 –> 33:56.385
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, back a couple of episodes to episode six hundred and six where we’re talking to Jenny from Calla Shoes who also started her business in 2016 and who focuses on one clear nation.

33:56.405 –> 33:58.046
[SPEAKER_01]: She’s built huge community as well.

33:58.066 –> 34:02.128
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you like the community stuff then go and have a listen to to my chat with Jenny as well.

34:02.588 –> 34:07.892
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for tuning in to this and every episode that you do of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

34:08.192 –> 34:20.541
[SPEAKER_01]: We bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including encouraging businesses and consumers to make more sustainable buying decisions.

34:20.941 –> 34:26.125
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

34:26.545 –> 34:28.486
[SPEAKER_01]: Help you have a great week and don’t forget to keep

34:32.206 –> 34:35.548
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

34:35.969 –> 34:40.852
[SPEAKER_02]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.