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[SPEAKER_00]: The most fundamental thing is this kind of experimental mindset, don’t just do things and hope they work, measure them, make sure they work, roll back if they don’t give yourself a standing chance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Most large brands I’ve seen understood that experimentation is the right thing to do.

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[SPEAKER_04]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Cutting through the Heiler to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It’s great to have you here.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our episodes.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Earlier this year, we bought you an episode all about how to grow in 2026.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Taken from a webinar I got to host for Ecommerce Tech.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we did another one all about profits in 2026, so I thought you’d appreciate me sharing that with you here too.

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[SPEAKER_03]: In it, I’m joined by three experts, each with a very different take on how to grow and how to increase your profits this year.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We’ve got Dan Bond from Rev Lifter, who’s all about intelligent offers and gives us a rundown of what that really means to kick things off.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We’ve got Sandeep Shah from web trends who brings the CRO and personalization angle to it all, and we have Jamie Lee, a consultant who’s all about bringing fast growth both Amazon and Deet Seabrans.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The four of us had a fascinating time discussing the big stories and answering the live audiences’ questions, so I know you’ll get a ton out of this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We’re kicking off with the guests introducing themselves.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Hello panel, let’s create a bit of space for you up here.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Very cool to have you all here.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We’ll start with Sandeep and then work our way around clockwise.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So Sandeep, please let the audience know more about you and more about web trends optimise.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, thanks, Cleary and Havon, so I’m sending it ahead of product and co-founder at Web Transoptimize.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I’ve been with the company now almost, you know, 14 years, give or take.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And over that time, you know, Principal focus has been on what we call

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[SPEAKER_00]: very important part of the kind of umbrella of CRL.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I’ve helped brands like, you know, Microsoft, against an MS group, HSBC, airlines, you know, supermarkets, all sorts.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And basically get more out of the website, get more people buying and not just turning up browsing and walking away, which is the important thing.

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[SPEAKER_03]: an endlessly fascinating area to be involved in.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I always think, you know, we must have mastered CRO by now.

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[SPEAKER_03]: No, there are new things and new customer behaviors and more tech.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So lots for us to get into with you later.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you so much for being here, Sandy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, please let us know what you’re up to at the moment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Chloe, thanks for having me.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I am Jamie Lee.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I am the founder and principal of JME Labs.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So what I do is I consult advice, provide fractional leadership in all things e-commerce for a variety of VCs, venture studios, early stage startup brands, all the way to nine figure brands, really helping them sharpen with that next chapter of growth looks like.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So that’s what we’ll be diving into today, and I bring experience from a variety of smaller scale and larger scale parents as well.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So it works at Everlane and Vital Proteins, all US-based brands, and then the likes of Walmart, Nike, and Sony as well.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So very excited to be here, happy to chat through anything from any stage of e-commerce growth with you all today.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Awesome to have you here, Jamie, now, Dan, please give us a little intro to you and Reflifter.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, if anybody wants to make comments, so I recently put some ads up on netter that got me in the moment I’m in the videos and a lot of people commenting on my hair.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to comment on my hair, feel free, I don’t mind, I’ve got thick skin, say what you like on my hair, say it’s great, say it’s terrible, I don’t mind if that’s something you want to talk about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely fine.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So my name’s Dan Bond.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I work for a company called Rev Lifter and we are sponsoring this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You’re welcome everyone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we do is that very old tactic for growth, the drives growth in e-commerce brands, promotions, discounts and offers or about using those, but using them more intelligently to avoid damaging margins and brand.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s what I’m going to talk a bit more about today’s session.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Excellent.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Dan, given what are they saying about your hair?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I have to ask.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There was both positive and negative comments that’s all I’m going to say.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We’re actually know that we’re no positive comments.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It’s entirely negative.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It is mad what comes up when you put something up on the internet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The internet is just like that.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This is a very weird place.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Dan, we are going to leave you to give us a fantastic introduction to a key part of

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[SPEAKER_03]: profit and growth, which so many brands failed to capitalize on.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I really love the fact you can be taking us through this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So Dan, the floor is yours.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Chloe.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, hello, everyone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we’re going to talk about intelligent offers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is all about understanding how to use them, as I say, it’s offers discounts promotions.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They’re all basically mean the same thing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But using them in a slightly different way, perhaps to the way they’ve always

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[SPEAKER_01]: The concept of discounts offers and promotions is been around for a really long time, spent 150 years they were first used in retail.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And originally it was a little hard metal tokens that people could give in to get a discount or a free gift or whatever part of the promotion.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then over time, that mechanism changed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So we moved to cutting out vouchers out of out of the newspaper on magazines.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If people remember that, if you’re old enough,

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[SPEAKER_01]: And now, of course, we use, you know, you get codes on your phone, you get codes in email, you get codes that get auto-applied.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So those mechanisms for applying discounts and promotions have changed, but the basic way they’re used by brands hasn’t many changed in that time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It’s all about clearing out stock, so getting rid of things in a sale, or as all about, we’re gonna miss a target, so let’s stick a discount on to make sure we hit that hit that target.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason offers were basically the way offers work is you have a selling price and you have a minimum price you can sell something for before you start losing money on it and you’ve all these people who are willing to pay a certain price for the product you’re selling and and by using an offer to reduce that price you essentially get more people into that area of acceptability that that is a price they’re willing to pay for the product.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you’re offering, the perceived value in their minds, they consider that to be worth it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But you’ve also got a both end, you’ve got people who would be willing to pay what you’re charging all potentially more, and also people who are never going to pay enough to actually make it and let’s go wild.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We actually did some research a couple of years ago now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We did some research with IMRG with UK Commessa Association and what they do is they have a panel of retailers and so they survey this panel.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So this is actually their data, this isn’t survey data, they dive into their data to look at.

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[SPEAKER_01]: how many what share of revenue items transactions was actually generated by discounted products.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you can see it’s around 50% just over 54% of revenue 49% of items of 52% of transactions.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So discounts really do drive a lot of sales for retailers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And they do work in terms of, you can look at the average selling price for discounted items over all item sold is about £14 higher.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So promotions work, and that’s why retailies use them and they use them a lot.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But there is a big downside to promotions and discounts and that’s the damage they do to both your margins in the short term.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So they reduce the amount of money you make.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But also the damage they do to your brand in the long term, you set people up

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[SPEAKER_01]: That you’re always going to be a discounting seller and they can come and buy things from you in this and research on the slide there about about proper research has been done that shows that’s the case That was setting expectations.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you’ve got these groups are either end of this if we return to this diagram where it’s the case of There’s people who would actually be willing to pay more, there’s people who are not willing to pay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So when you launch an offer across your site, there’s 20% off for everyone for everything.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you’re including in that all the people who would have paid more, you’re including all the people who would never buy anyway.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the two questions you start to ask is what is the right offer to give people and who is the right people to receive that offer?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s the sort of problem we’re trying to solve at Revlifter.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s all to do with

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[SPEAKER_01]: understanding data, understanding more about the people who were coming to your site, what’s their likely level of intent, how likely are they to buy, and what’s the minimum offer you could potentially give them, it might get them to buy, if they weren’t going to buy or buy more, or buy again, if they were a peak customer.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Signed intelligence, which we’re going to tell a lot of our intelligence comes in two key areas in targeting, so who sees the offer and in what context and in optimization.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So what’s the right offer and in that classic CRO way can we test can we optimize every offer and our site?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So in terms of targeting what we’re talking about is any of these sort of data points we can collect about someone coming to your site where did they come from?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the first time they’ve come and they come before?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Where are they in that funnel?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are they just browsing?

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[SPEAKER_01]: They’ve got things in their basket.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What products have they looked at?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What brands?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What categories?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Where are they?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you can use in GOIP.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We can tell quite a bit about locationally where they are in country or state.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the basket value and the products they’ve got in their basket, how long have they had that basket?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Is it high value low value at a expensive items, cheap items?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And all these things, if we understand all this data, we process it and we try and understand as much as possible about what people have done before, like how likely were they to buy before or not likely to buy, we can understand more about who needs to see an offer and doesn’t.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is gives you as a high deal of calculating level of intent.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So here goes an example of that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So say you only wanted to target people who are very low and intent and show them an offer to try and get them to buy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that’s how you could, you could shy, sky off that sort of segment of the button to target them, that offer to them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is typically what a conversion rate looks like on a website.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Most people don’t buy any two percent people generally convert on an e-commerce site.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So in most cases, you’ve got a large number of people who are low intent, are very broad range of mid-intent and then a small number of high intent.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you can break that up and start to use those segments and target different offers at them to try and get them to do different things, that could be very, very powerful.

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[SPEAKER_01]: At the other end, I mentioned testing and optimization.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the kind of thing we’re talking about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is exactly the kind of test we run with some of our customers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So 5-10 or 15% off on an email sign up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No prizes for guessing, which gets the best result, 15%.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The bigger the discount you offer, the higher numbers go.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But the question is, beneath that metric, Wales is going on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: How many emails sign-up does it drive in yes?

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[SPEAKER_01]: But how many of them converting?

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[SPEAKER_01]: How many are buying?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What’s your offer redemption rate?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What’s the AOV?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are they spending more?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are they spending less because they’re getting a promotion?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are they driving actual incremental revenue, rather than just your serving a sign-up offer to people who were going to buy anyway, and all they’ve done is use that discount.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you can start to dive into these things and actually optimize.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And in the case where we did this with an actual customer, 10% off was the winning variant because it was about the balance.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We call this office sensitivity testing, so testing how many people respond to a different level of discount or promotional price testing in terms of, you know, if you’ve got an item for sale, how much do you need to drop the price by in order to drive a level of demand, that’s going to make sure that that item doesn’t sit in your warehouse.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As a very simple I think this is a fun way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Chloe’s got a shop, I don’t know if you know this Chloe’s got a shop, it’s called Chloe’s Fun Store.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It’s down there and Cornwall, if you’re ever in the true-row area, believe it’s around there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And if you’ve got to imagine you’ve got, you know, someone goes into a store to buy something, they could one on one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Kaggle with a shopkeeper and say, you know, this is the thing I want to buy, let’s talk about price.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But if you’ve got lots and lots of people coming to your site, hundreds of people, thousands of people a day, it’s all that scale, essentially, and how you do this on a broad scale, they’re very, very fast in real time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So understanding whether people are coming to your site because they’re looking just looking for a bargain, they’ve got plenty of money, they want to spend, they want a specific thing, they’re just browsing, they want to buy right away.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you could understand that thing and break people into these different segments, then you could serve different offers to them and that’s more likely to get what you want

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[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I’m looking forward to visiting Chloe’s unstalk.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, open nine to five Monday to Friday.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I’m at thanks so much for that, Dan.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think it’s.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I love what you talk about with the intelligent office because it’s something which is a fundamental part of human behavior.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I remember back when I started my career in the world of mail order, we talked about the sales buyers.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But we didn’t have the technology to properly do it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It was very blunt what we were doing and it’s so cool to see that now is possible for everybody.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie Sandi, is this something you get involved with any thoughts to add to that offer construction side of things?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, I’m guessing probably more your wheel hasn’t in Sandi, so I’ll come to you first, but then we’ll get to Sandi.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I’d say Dan, with a lot of the clients that I’m working with, we’re assessing partners like a rev lifter to think of, okay, with current technology, say that you’re in Shopify or Amazon, there are things that you could do or say Clavio for email, where it’s like, hey, from a retargeting perspective, here’s a specific segment we want to leverage to ensure that hey, someone who’s lapsed gets a 10% off offer.

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[SPEAKER_02]: or on Amazon, there’s something called brand tailored motions, where you can target based on cohort, high intent, hasn’t shopped in a while, or just high potential consumers.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But we know there is a ceiling with that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: However, Chloe to your question, we are leveraging all the tools that are natively available across platforms to make sure the audience is that are warm, but not yet come back, are coming back appropriately.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the biggest question though that we’re always trying to answer, the million dollar question is, how profitable are these customers long term?

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[SPEAKER_02]: If we already need this level of push to get them back, are they the right customers to bring them back?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Hence why we’re looking at tools like a rev lifter?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it’s like Dan’s example with the email sign-ups.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It’s not just about the volume of email sign-up.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It’s about who signs up and how good they are for you over the longer term.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, find the principle quite interesting because it’s exactly how we talk about experience on a website.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, pretty much with anything you do, you know, this idea of just show everyone the same thing and hope they respond in the same way is a very natural thing to do if you’re building a website, you know, you’re building a page and everyone will go to that template no matter how it looks.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But for these kind of cohort segments of people who are coming to the site, you know, the more kind of boxes you get to put around, whether it’s experience or not well, or you know, offers and programmers on your cabinets, you know, it’s this kind of idea of think about what they actually need and be a bit intelligent with what you’re doing, which sounds very straightforward.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it’s kind of immediately the same as how we think about

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it’s all about that personalization, isn’t it?

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[SPEAKER_03]: But before I take you down a personalization standpoint, a little reminder to the audience, if you’ve got questions, please add them into the comments.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I know it’s working, Tim proved it was working.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And regular attendees will know that I like to kick off these webinars.

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[SPEAKER_03]: With a few rather than questions, a few statements or complete the sentences for our panel to really kind of try and get as much as many ideas into the mix as possible before we go too far off on tangents or go through an area.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So the first thing I would like our panel to answer or to complete is,

16:02.193 –> 16:06.784
[SPEAKER_03]: have kind of all the stuff you’ve been chatting with brands and merchants about recently.

16:06.824 –> 16:11.495
[SPEAKER_03]: What’s the advice you’ve been giving most often to them to help them improve profits?

16:11.516 –> 16:14.663
[SPEAKER_03]: And you’re welcome to put some sales growth into the answer as well.

16:15.004 –> 16:19.054
[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, can I come to you first and I’ll come to Sandeep and then we’ll come back around to Dan.

16:19.374 –> 16:20.016
[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie?

16:20.553 –> 16:24.057
[SPEAKER_02]: So let’s say there’s two things that I tend to tell brands.

16:24.858 –> 16:30.264
[SPEAKER_02]: One is to ensure that you’re separating demand capture from demand creation.

16:31.005 –> 16:39.736
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I mean by this is a lot of brands are saying, hey, if I scale spend this equals more revenue without thinking of how do I want to do this?

16:40.196 –> 16:50.188
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, if we take Google or Amazon, a lot of folks might over index or work with agencies or partners that might do this and spend more on branded search.

16:50.168 –> 16:56.157
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I tell them we want to make sure we have the right guardrails, so we’re truly spending on incremental growth.

16:56.718 –> 16:58.280
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone’s already searching for your brand.

16:58.300 –> 17:07.634
[SPEAKER_02]: There’s a level of brand defense you want to play, but not let’s not spend 80% of our budget on keywords with that would have likely converted organically.

17:08.055 –> 17:11.400
[SPEAKER_02]: So being smart at looking at what is truly more incremental,

17:11.380 –> 17:14.545
[SPEAKER_02]: versus what could be cannibalizing already organic sales.

17:15.046 –> 17:23.721
[SPEAKER_02]: That’s how we also want to think about channel diversity through marketing, like how do we want to mix Google and Meta together, since each of those channels have a different purpose.

17:24.363 –> 17:29.271
[SPEAKER_02]: Google for more demand capture and Meta for more demand creation.

17:29.251 –> 17:40.686
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other piece too, most of my clients have shifted to really nailing down retention before they start thinking about scaling growth through more tapofunnel, more traffic and new customers.

17:41.227 –> 17:48.978
[SPEAKER_02]: As I say, if you have a leaky bucket and 50% of your folks are dropping off from your first to second shop, that’s a big problem to solve.

17:49.018 –> 17:50.820
[SPEAKER_02]: We don’t want to keep filling that bucket.

17:50.800 –> 17:52.464
[SPEAKER_02]: if there’s a lot of our opportunity there.

17:52.484 –> 17:57.656
[SPEAKER_02]: So we’re really focusing on how do we make sure we get that first customer to come back a second time.

17:58.077 –> 18:05.434
[SPEAKER_02]: Then the third or fourth of the fifth and really hitting what that quote magic shop is to make them a VIP customer for life.

18:05.819 –> 18:33.058
[SPEAKER_03]: I love your first put, I love both your points, obviously Jamie, but I love your first point in particular because I think this is the year where e-commerce brands and merchants are going to have to get to grips with demand capture versus demand creation because over the last 20 years we’ve been able to be pretty lazy 90% of stores and just go after capture and just capture that demand with our advertising strategies, with our email strategies, with everything we’re doing.

18:33.038 –> 18:37.566
[SPEAKER_03]: But actually, if we want to cut through the noise, we now have to do the creation part as well.

18:37.686 –> 18:45.880
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it’s, you know, having more than one line for Facebook ads in a P&L is a bit of a mind-blowing one for people.

18:45.900 –> 18:47.102
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love you’ve brought that up.

18:47.583 –> 18:50.127
[SPEAKER_03]: And Sandi, how would you complete this sentence?

18:52.191 –> 18:55.416
[SPEAKER_00]: It would probably be too experiment.

18:56.037 –> 18:58.742
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, both in that kind of

18:59.077 –> 19:28.105
[SPEAKER_00]: Traditional sense of the word, it didn’t just try things, you know, brands are very obsessed with the next campaign that they need to run, you know, if you look at Odin Siddhamers group, they have the next blockbuster film to promote and there will be a endless cycle of those forever, you know, most fashion sites will have the next season and the next holiday and the next event

19:28.085 –> 19:30.128
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, new products to promote.

19:30.789 –> 19:44.372
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you’re very obsessed with the campaigns, you must forget this idea of, hey, we should be trying things, not just putting stuff out there, but actually trying and testing and playing with things along the way.

19:44.352 –> 20:01.107
[SPEAKER_00]: So both that kind of mindset of, we should experiment, but then in the most strict sense, and in my world, RAM, things like AB testing, where it’s, you know, run control trials, find genuine data on the other end where you know this works better than that.

20:01.647 –> 20:13.077
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, we should steer any given bit of an experience or the entire experience as a whole, in a particular

20:13.057 –> 20:14.659
[SPEAKER_00]: this idea of a leaky bucket.

20:15.440 –> 20:19.144
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think acquisition is becoming more more difficult.

20:20.185 –> 20:24.831
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s very hard to win people, especially the longer tail.

20:25.712 –> 20:30.237
[SPEAKER_00]: And so conversion is kind of your saving grace.

20:30.577 –> 20:35.443
[SPEAKER_00]: A whole bunch of people are coming to the site if you let them leave without having even tried to retain them.

20:37.205 –> 20:37.806
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s crazy.

20:38.507 –> 20:40.549
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, experiment.

20:41.575 –> 21:01.340
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it’s so easy as you’re saying, just to get caught up in the new campaign, new campaign, new campaign, but actually not learning anything, actually not fixing any of that leaky bucket, clearly we’re all going to be using that analogy for the rest of this webinar, but you don’t make those improvements, because you’re constantly focused on the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that’s going on.

21:01.380 –> 21:05.025
[SPEAKER_03]: And Dan, how would you complete this sentence?

21:05.185 –> 21:07.768
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we might already know, but are you going to curve ball us?

21:08.204 –> 21:20.277
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m gonna take it slightly, slightly, so what I’d say is, this is a voice of beginning out a lot recently in general, is having a position or a stance or an approach to something and that’s very clear, you stand by.

21:20.297 –> 21:37.975
[SPEAKER_01]: The one’s interesting when we speak to brands about their discounts is it’s clear they don’t have a clearly stated like, it’s fine to say we never discount or we are a discount brand and we discount everything or somewhere in the middle, but so many brands

21:37.955 –> 21:40.240
[SPEAKER_01]: and this creates a problem.

21:40.260 –> 21:42.725
[SPEAKER_01]: Let’s see, I’ll use two different stories with contrast this.

21:42.805 –> 21:47.875
[SPEAKER_01]: So we worked with Ravoli, lovely, lovely, lovely premium handbags accessory, persis, that kind of thing.

21:48.717 –> 21:55.390
[SPEAKER_01]: When we started working with them, their specific challenge was, we know we use discounts too much, we know we over-discount, and we’re supposed to be this.

21:55.370 –> 21:56.272
[SPEAKER_01]: premium brand.

21:56.772 –> 21:58.976
[SPEAKER_01]: We know in the short term of the long term, this is damaging.

21:59.758 –> 22:00.699
[SPEAKER_01]: So we work with them.

22:01.080 –> 22:09.074
[SPEAKER_01]: And really in the early days, it was mostly about deciding when not to use a discount, when not to use a promotion to start saying, well, let’s stop using them so much.

22:09.134 –> 22:18.390
[SPEAKER_01]: Let’s figure out where we can start to pull back a little bit with that’s not going to cause you damage in the, in the, in the, in the, your conversion rate now, I’ve met, I’ve met brands who said we tried going cold turkey.

22:18.370 –> 22:19.992
[SPEAKER_01]: and our conversion rate absolutely tanked.

22:20.012 –> 22:21.734
[SPEAKER_01]: And it’s like, yeah, that’s not the best way of doing it.

22:21.774 –> 22:23.596
[SPEAKER_01]: We can sort of withdraw a bit more slowly.

22:24.618 –> 22:32.467
[SPEAKER_01]: So you then you’re starting to think, you know, how exactly do we use discounts and how are we going to implement that in a way that actually allows us to meet the goals we need to meet?

22:32.487 –> 22:35.491
[SPEAKER_01]: And then conversely, I’m at a brand actually just very recently an event.

22:35.991 –> 22:37.113
[SPEAKER_01]: A really interesting brand.

22:37.673 –> 22:42.980
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m not going to name them because I don’t have the permission, but they’re very successful brand who bring a lot in the last of the 10 years.

22:43.480 –> 22:45.643
[SPEAKER_01]: And they

22:46.163 –> 22:54.815
[SPEAKER_01]: However, they were aware that with ambitious growth targets, ambitious plans for the future, at some point they were probably going to need to start doing it.

22:55.256 –> 22:56.838
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, that’s a great position to be in.

22:56.858 –> 22:58.360
[SPEAKER_01]: So you’ve got this position we’ve never done it.

22:58.461 –> 23:01.345
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to really think carefully about how to implement it.

23:01.705 –> 23:10.618
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could start by just implementing it in a few key places where it really solves a particular challenge that your customers, your prospects might be having.

23:10.598 –> 23:19.494
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, in either case, it’s about start thinking more deeply about, you know, if you do use whatever tactic you use, but in particular discounts, how do you use them?

23:19.574 –> 23:21.718
[SPEAKER_01]: What makes sense in terms of you as a brand?

23:22.159 –> 23:27.568
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you going to implement that to make sure that you can achieve growth in the in the short medium and long term?

23:28.169 –> 23:33.619
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I think I think just having a, I think about that and coming up with an answer is a good start.

23:34.392 –> 23:35.694
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that point.

23:35.814 –> 23:38.357
[SPEAKER_03]: I was, I’m going to name drop now yesterday.

23:38.397 –> 23:50.954
[SPEAKER_03]: I was interviewing Jim Sharks XCMO who took them through that massive growth spot and we were talking about what it takes to grow any comma store from eight figures upwards.

23:51.414 –> 23:54.358
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the key things he was saying is you have to

23:54.338 –> 23:55.659
[SPEAKER_03]: have a clear strategy.

23:56.300 –> 23:58.822
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you have to, this is our approach to promotions.

23:58.922 –> 24:04.167
[SPEAKER_03]: This is our approach to what markets we’re going to focus on, what channels we’re going to focus on, which products we’re going to focus on.

24:04.647 –> 24:09.572
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you’re not making those decisions, you are not giving yourself the best chance of success.

24:09.732 –> 24:11.834
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is that kind of like, what do we stand for?

24:11.874 –> 24:13.295
[SPEAKER_03]: Who are we and what do we do?

24:13.335 –> 24:14.276
[SPEAKER_03]: So, so, love that one.

24:14.576 –> 24:24.345
[SPEAKER_03]: We have had a question coming from our most frequent

24:24.325 –> 24:25.888
[SPEAKER_03]: that phrase.

24:25.908 –> 24:28.532
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, random joke, panel, don’t worry about it.

24:30.656 –> 24:31.497
[SPEAKER_03]: He’s got a great question.

24:31.517 –> 24:37.147
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we should go straight to now because it’s a big one and it kind of fits in with what we’ve just been talking about.

24:38.188 –> 24:42.115
[SPEAKER_03]: How does each of the panels suggest retake a like that instruction

24:42.095 –> 24:42.656
[SPEAKER_03]: their Edward.

24:42.696 –> 24:44.317
[SPEAKER_03]: I’m not allowed to ask any one of them.

24:44.337 –> 24:47.301
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to ask all three of you this question, each of the panel.

24:47.681 –> 24:51.706
[SPEAKER_03]: How does each of the panel suggest retailers and brands measure success?

24:52.306 –> 24:54.248
[SPEAKER_03]: Is the age of conversion rate over?

24:54.309 –> 24:55.730
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that’s a big one.

24:55.750 –> 24:58.453
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven’t heard that one being dead yet, but we’ll get well, go with it.

24:59.094 –> 25:03.018
[SPEAKER_03]: And if so, what success factors should we be focusing on?

25:04.440 –> 25:07.443
[SPEAKER_03]: Sandeep, dare I come to you first on this one?

25:07.523 –> 25:11.848
[SPEAKER_03]: For that, is the age of conversion rate over part?

25:12.622 –> 25:15.468
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely not, in my opinion, I guess.

25:15.629 –> 25:16.759
[SPEAKER_00]: And…

25:16.840 –> 25:18.782
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason for it is that it’s just a metric.

25:19.063 –> 25:22.547
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it’s not this idea of, it’s not a destination.

25:23.067 –> 25:27.632
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it’s not like a once I’ve hit my 2% and done mission accomplished.

25:28.393 –> 25:31.197
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, I think the thing to measure is growth.

25:31.637 –> 25:35.141
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how much battery you’re doing then where you are.

25:35.582 –> 25:45.413
[SPEAKER_00]: If you’re not improving, you are probably declining at some point because new brands will pop up every day other people are trying to grow.

25:45.832 –> 25:55.422
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless you are a monopoly and congrats, I guess, if you are somehow, but if you’re not, you know, a competition will be taking money away from you in some shape or form.

25:56.062 –> 26:13.780
[SPEAKER_00]: So growth is definitely the right one, and then the question is, how do you measure growth and at least on, you know, properties that are myself and web trends touch like conversion rate on websites, you know, this is how we measure growth, you know, is there an incremental

26:13.760 –> 26:22.386
[SPEAKER_00]: Inclusionary, be it for a group or just, you know, everyone as a whole, and if there is, then that’s successful.

26:22.990 –> 26:28.897
[SPEAKER_03]: So are you a fan of ignoring benchmarks and measuring against yourself?

26:29.218 –> 26:32.542
[SPEAKER_03]: And are you, I’m gonna add another one of my pet things in here?

26:32.822 –> 26:44.897
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you also a fan of not looking at the global conversion rate but rather looking at conversion rate from email conversion rate from ads, conversion rate from organic as a better way of looking at things?

26:45.569 –> 27:13.062
[SPEAKER_00]: ignoring benchmarks 100%, I’m not sure how anyone could look at a benchmark for fashion, which includes, I don’t know, Lou Vuitton, and one of the many fast fashion brands, and expect the two to have any parity or resemblance despite being in the same vertical as each other.

27:13.042 –> 27:28.772
[SPEAKER_00]: This idea of considered purchase, you know, maybe there is something in there, which is close to think about, but even that, you know, if you’re buying an expensive bag versus a call, you know, both could be a considered purchase, but the jannings are entirely different.

27:29.140 –> 27:49.748
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, definitely on that side, you know, I would ignore and have ignored pretty much every benchmark I’ve ever seen, segmentation for me is a massive thing and it’s, you know, people are coming to your site, they are in groups, there is an average of, you know, the site or the app as a whole,

27:49.728 –> 27:50.169
[SPEAKER_00]: great.

27:51.491 –> 27:56.541
[SPEAKER_00]: But that’s formed from a whole bunch of segments that you do together and take them and average of.

27:57.362 –> 28:04.175
[SPEAKER_00]: But where they differ from each other, you know, if you find one of them to be struggling a lot where it doesn’t really make sense that they should.

28:05.096 –> 28:06.078
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s clearly a gap.

28:06.619 –> 28:13.592
[SPEAKER_00]: And that’s a reason to go when experiments come up with a program trying to tackle a problem somewhere.

28:14.078 –> 28:18.483
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, segmentation 100% in benchmarks, 100% there.

28:18.683 –> 28:22.668
[SPEAKER_03]: I’m glad we were of one mind there, Sunday.

28:22.688 –> 28:31.699
[SPEAKER_03]: If I knew there was a reason we invited you on this, because we think like, Jamie, you’re dealing with this with brands big and small all the time.

28:31.739 –> 28:35.563
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you go about measuring success and defining those KPIs?

28:36.269 –> 28:39.833
[SPEAKER_02]: So there’s always the hero KPIs of revenue and profit.

28:40.434 –> 28:46.241
[SPEAKER_02]: So once we double-click beyond that, the two metrics I always recommend are tacos.

28:46.821 –> 28:48.944
[SPEAKER_02]: So total average cost of sale.

28:49.505 –> 28:53.109
[SPEAKER_02]: That’s essentially your advertising spend divided by total revenue.

28:53.149 –> 28:58.395
[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason we do this is we don’t want to look at just advertising as a cost of

28:58.375 –> 29:18.055
[SPEAKER_02]: purely what that ad spend brings in terms of revenue, say $20 of ad spend brings $60 of ad revenue, but if it’s bringing a hundred dollars of all revenue, we want to see how much are we spending from a marketing perspective, how efficient are we, and how does that compare to how much overall sales were bringing?

29:18.035 –> 29:24.002
[SPEAKER_02]: So that’s one core metric we like to use, and then LTV to CAC, especially for high-frequency businesses.

29:24.102 –> 29:34.394
[SPEAKER_02]: So that’s your lifetime value divided by your customer acquisition costs, and that gives us a sense of long-term profitability growth for the company.

29:34.975 –> 29:41.663
[SPEAKER_02]: Are we acquiring high-quality customers from an LTV perspective and how much does it cost us to acquire them?

29:41.643 –> 29:49.850
[SPEAKER_03]: I always get myself in knots when I start thinking about LTV, and customer lifetime value or life time value, which everyone from three-letter thing you want to go with.

29:50.271 –> 30:00.140
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I’m like, but there’s time involved in those, so I’m like, I can’t, I can’t look at today’s LTV to optimize my Google ads, because there’s time involved.

30:00.160 –> 30:04.624
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you, what’s the time bands on that LTV versus Kaku?

30:04.644 –> 30:11.650
[SPEAKER_03]: You’re looking at January’s recruit, the January-recreated cohort

30:11.630 –> 30:13.554
[SPEAKER_03]: or how does time factor in?

30:14.556 –> 30:15.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Great question.

30:15.519 –> 30:25.220
[SPEAKER_02]: I say these are brands that have existed for at least a year, so we have annually at least one year of data, and then at that point we look at the blended average, and then also by month.

30:25.541 –> 30:30.752
[SPEAKER_02]: When I say blended average, I’m just looking at, hey, see you launch January of 2025.

30:30.732 –> 30:34.676
[SPEAKER_02]: in all of 2025, what was our LTV to CAC ratio?

30:35.237 –> 30:38.981
[SPEAKER_02]: And then by cohort, how are we starting to measure that in 2026?

30:39.261 –> 30:48.030
[SPEAKER_02]: So in January, there is a little hard to say what the real LTV is going to look like, but we have some tools that we use to say what their predicted LTV looks like.

30:48.711 –> 30:54.597
[SPEAKER_02]: So okay, based on their predicted LTV and their CAC, do we think this is going to be a valuable cohort for us?

30:54.712 –> 30:55.514
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it’s.

30:55.534 –> 31:00.083
[SPEAKER_02]: But typically, in January, a good window, we like to wait at least six months.

31:00.724 –> 31:07.638
[SPEAKER_02]: So in June, July, we’re then looking at January, I’ve got same year to see what the true old of it, LTV to Kakarisha looks like.

31:08.139 –> 31:08.720
[SPEAKER_03]: Got you.

31:08.740 –> 31:10.143
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a brilliant explanation.

31:10.203 –> 31:10.684
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

31:11.485 –> 31:14.391
[SPEAKER_03]: Dan, you’ll take on Ed’s question.

31:14.877 –> 31:24.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, my fellow panelists are very smart people, and they have listed a lot of very good metrics to look at, profit, LTV, K. These are all very good things to look at.

31:24.192 –> 31:29.100
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the way I like to look at it and like to explain into e-commerce market is a market is in general.

31:29.120 –> 31:35.670
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes we are a bit guilty of over complicating things and making them sound a bit more technically challenging they aren’t they are.

31:35.650 –> 31:38.595
[SPEAKER_01]: If you’re a retailer, you basically have three things you’re trying to do.

31:38.615 –> 31:41.500
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re trying to sell more things to more people more often.

31:41.940 –> 31:43.843
[SPEAKER_01]: That’s basically the framing for what you’re trying to do.

31:43.863 –> 31:48.491
[SPEAKER_01]: And then within that, there’s lots of metrics and lots of things, ways of measuring those things and achieving that success.

31:48.912 –> 31:54.260
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you keep that at the top of your mind that that’s the main goal is to transfer more things to more people more often.

31:54.821 –> 31:55.903
[SPEAKER_01]: You can’t go far wrong.

31:57.065 –> 31:57.706
[SPEAKER_03]: like it.

31:57.867 –> 32:01.233
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice little summary there Dan, you’re doing my job for me and better than me.

32:01.734 –> 32:04.560
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is always appreciated, I have to say.

32:04.901 –> 32:05.862
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that’s true, Chloe.

32:05.923 –> 32:09.530
[SPEAKER_01]: No one’s going to watch this if I did it every morning.

32:09.570 –> 32:14.179
[SPEAKER_03]: There comes a point in one’s career when you realise it’s completely fine when other people are doing it better than you.

32:14.159 –> 32:41.803
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I’m going to jump to probably a statement that our panel are not expecting because this was not the next one on the list, but I think it fits in with a few kind of subplots that have been going on in our discussion so far today, which is that that that meeting between conversion rate optimization in which I would include the promotion incentive optimization personalization and all those kind of things.

32:41.783 –> 32:44.967
[SPEAKER_03]: all those things that increase like the herd of actually buying.

32:45.547 –> 32:48.511
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the marketing and traffic driving side of things.

32:48.731 –> 32:51.995
[SPEAKER_03]: And I’ve so often been in a scenario where they’re not playing together.

32:52.015 –> 33:00.444
[SPEAKER_03]: And actually I always think that the CRO improvement, you know, if I’m the market to driving the traffic, bring me some conversion rate optimization improvements.

33:00.544 –> 33:05.971
[SPEAKER_03]: I am all for that, you’re going to make my row-ass body, you’re going to make my cat body, you’re going to make my volume of acquisition better.

33:06.551 –> 33:11.537
[SPEAKER_03]: So RCRO improvements, the only way to improve all your marketing performance.

33:11.517 –> 33:13.734
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it a key part of the strategy?

33:14.036 –> 33:16.515
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyone can jump in on this, I’ll let you give it a go.

33:17.457 –> 33:21.881
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m going to not just say, I’ve got a fairly quick deck, which is, yeah, I’m in a way, I agree.

33:22.982 –> 33:24.884
[SPEAKER_01]: So I’ve been a marketer for something like 20 years.

33:24.924 –> 33:25.664
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s a very long time.

33:25.704 –> 33:26.165
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m very old.

33:26.205 –> 33:27.126
[SPEAKER_01]: I’m much older than I look.

33:27.146 –> 33:27.786
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for asking.

33:28.467 –> 33:34.673
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that generally, yes, that my pro, whenever I’m on says to me, you know, what is your general approach to marketing?

33:34.693 –> 33:39.137
[SPEAKER_01]: Like all of marketing and all of Toronto grow business is a continual test and learn program, right?

33:39.477 –> 33:40.818
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re always trying things.

33:41.158 –> 33:43.701
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they work, you do them again, and you do them more.

33:43.741 –> 33:45.582
[SPEAKER_01]: And you keep improving them and optimising them.

33:45.602 –> 33:47.464
[SPEAKER_01]: If they don’t work, you stop doing them.

33:47.444 –> 33:50.387
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, if you think about that, that’s what CRO is at the end of the day.

33:50.427 –> 33:58.337
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s all about taking these elements of your funnel, of your growth, of your system, for getting more customers and get to your buy more stuff.

33:58.657 –> 34:01.600
[SPEAKER_01]: And working out and make it better and work more efficiently and get more people through.

34:01.921 –> 34:08.208
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you think about that, then yes, that has absolutely the way you can test and learn, wait to improve your brand, you can test and learn ways to improve your website.

34:08.508 –> 34:11.332
[SPEAKER_01]: You can test and learn ways to improve your email, your user promotions.

34:11.952 –> 34:14.976
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything can be, can be, you can be optimized and can be tested and learned.

34:14.996 –> 34:16.978
[SPEAKER_01]: So, from that perspective, yes, it’s…

34:16.958 –> 34:26.125
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s true, whether you call it CRO or whatever you want to call it, yeah, you should be optimizing everything as much as you can because that is that is missed opportunities at your time.

34:26.543 –> 34:38.801
[SPEAKER_03]: I’m currently sporting up for a webinar I’m doing with Will Pay next week and that’s it’s possible to get in terms of revenue improvement by improving your credit card failure rate.

34:39.042 –> 34:40.263
[SPEAKER_03]: Is insane?

34:40.283 –> 34:42.647
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean it just does not something we often think about.

34:43.408 –> 34:49.497
[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, do you when you’re working with brands, do you find on the growth side you’ll be bringing the marketing in the CRO together hand in hand?

34:49.932 –> 35:14.404
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so while I think Sierra improvements are really critical, I was think, you know, that lower funnel, CRO retention marketing, a big part of it is also bringing the high quality traffic, Chloe, as you mentioned, you got to bring these some good customers, otherwise, CRO can only do so much so observing what is your workhorse channel or most efficient channel that brings you the most valuable consumers and or what is the right blend of channels.

35:14.384 –> 35:26.037
[SPEAKER_02]: given that most people are using MTA, multi-touch attribution, maybe it’s a combination of, I’m making this up, meta first, Google Next, email or SMS is that third touch point to get them through.

35:26.518 –> 35:29.406
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the right sequencing or combination of

35:29.386 –> 35:37.555
[SPEAKER_02]: top of funnel or performance marketing touch points to bring the most valuable consumers then making zero super easy.

35:38.116 –> 35:51.411
[SPEAKER_02]: The one other piece I want to call out that I’m working with brands is also brand and product marketing tends to get left out of these conversations and what I always say is we can only do so much to sell a bad product.

35:51.391 –> 36:05.485
[SPEAKER_02]: So if your product is getting one star reviews across the board, whether it’s D to C, Amazon or other retailers, we have fundamentally need to fix that as partners versus putting e-commerce on the hook for selling a product that’s not resonating with customers.

36:06.308 –> 36:07.250
[SPEAKER_03]: such a good point.

36:08.131 –> 36:22.494
[SPEAKER_03]: And as we kind of as we move into the world of the the the demand capture of the demand generation side of things, the demand creation side of things, I think that whole the branding, the creative, the quality of the products, the UGC that comes into it becomes such an important part of the piece.

36:22.875 –> 36:24.377
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love that you’re bringing that up, Jamie.

36:24.477 –> 36:26.721
[SPEAKER_03]: And Sandi, you’re you’re perspective on this.

36:26.761 –> 36:31.168
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you do you love it when the marketing team are banging on your door going help me with my cat?

36:31.739 –> 36:35.805
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be great, and I wish people would do a lot of things.

36:36.346 –> 36:42.636
[SPEAKER_00]: I think on the question itself, the word all kind of muddies the borders of fraction.

36:43.077 –> 36:59.603
[SPEAKER_00]: In principle, for a lot of most people’s marketing, the idea is to serve them something digital, measurable, get more people to then go and click on the thing that you’re trying to get them to click on or buy,

36:59.583 –> 37:05.756
[SPEAKER_00]: convey or browse or shop around or whatever the goal is in the moment for that particular project.

37:06.537 –> 37:10.706
[SPEAKER_00]: There are forms of marketing which you can’t measure immediately.

37:10.746 –> 37:20.005
[SPEAKER_00]: And my local train station on the platform, you know, I swore some signs for community fibrill who are customer advice and

37:19.985 –> 37:31.513
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you measure the the effectiveness of a sign on a trained platform or optimize the conversion of that?

37:31.578 –> 37:37.927
[SPEAKER_00]: You could probably move it around a bit and see if more people look at the sign, but beyond that, there’s only so far you can go.

37:37.967 –> 37:51.325
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it is things like email efforts and social and getting people to convert from ads as they come to the site, absolutely, you know, conversion can help make all of those things better.

37:51.305 –> 38:03.666
[SPEAKER_00]: but you know, if you’re running the Super Bowl advert, I’m not sure how conversion would help with those kind of more brand related things as opposed to, you know, messaging based marketing.

38:04.207 –> 38:14.545
[SPEAKER_03]: And given we’re talking brands and deep, do you find that as e-commerce is evolved, you’re now spending more time running tests.

38:14.761 –> 38:21.029
[SPEAKER_03]: that are to do with how the branding appears and how the creative appears rather than should the button be on the right of the left.

38:21.710 –> 38:23.232
[SPEAKER_03]: So there’s kind of softer tests.

38:24.413 –> 38:30.981
[SPEAKER_00]: We’ve definitely got away from button testing a good 10 years ago.

38:31.922 –> 38:35.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully, we milked that in 2012.

38:35.046 –> 38:37.309
[SPEAKER_00]: That was.

38:37.373 –> 38:41.619
[SPEAKER_00]: Every single company you can imagine really wanted their buttons to be amazing.

38:42.480 –> 38:45.004
[SPEAKER_00]: Proposition matters a lot more now.

38:45.484 –> 38:48.769
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are a lot of good reasons to buy from most retailers.

38:50.531 –> 38:55.638
[SPEAKER_00]: Very often they do a terrible job of picking the right things for the right people to make them aware of.

38:56.520 –> 39:02.588
[SPEAKER_00]: Be it that they are, you know, UK based as a poster giant global conglomerate.

39:02.568 –> 39:07.397
[SPEAKER_00]: or, you know, they have free returns or they have good ratings or they have a good support network.

39:07.637 –> 39:10.823
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there’s only so many pixels on a page.

39:11.264 –> 39:14.249
[SPEAKER_00]: So there’s only so much you can really put in front of people.

39:14.930 –> 39:16.113
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is the right message?

39:16.253 –> 39:17.936
[SPEAKER_00]: And is it the same thing for everyone?

39:18.096 –> 39:19.198
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably not.

39:19.218 –> 39:21.703
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people are kind of steering more in that direction.

39:22.344 –> 39:26.331
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is a lot of focus still on very fundamental things like,

39:26.395 –> 39:30.741
[SPEAKER_00]: We have 100,000 products and people can’t find what they’re looking for.

39:31.201 –> 39:39.933
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we just fix navigation and recommendation engines and all these kind of core UX problems as well still?

39:40.874 –> 39:41.034
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice.

39:41.054 –> 39:41.294
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

39:41.314 –> 39:41.435
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.

39:41.455 –> 39:44.819
[SPEAKER_03]: The button is just just two obvious and example folds.

39:44.839 –> 39:46.661
[SPEAKER_03]: We’ll see how it is in it.

39:46.681 –> 39:49.125
[SPEAKER_03]: But thank goodness we’ve moved past that.

39:49.265 –> 39:49.645
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

39:49.665 –> 39:53.230
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to go back to another one of the statements now.

39:53.851 –> 39:57.761
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys, can you grow profits and sales at the same time?

39:58.002 –> 40:10.594
[SPEAKER_03]: I think sometimes we think that you have to, if you want growth, you can’t also be profitable, if you want profits, you have to cut back and reduce costs and do clever things.

40:10.574 –> 40:20.870
[SPEAKER_03]: In your experiences, is it possible to increase your profit percentage and increase your overall sales at the same time?

40:21.651 –> 40:27.520
[SPEAKER_03]: Dan, you’re unmuted, so I’m going to come to you first, because I know you’re unmuted, but then we’ll work our way through everybody.

40:28.208 –> 40:30.893
[SPEAKER_01]: I will always be unmuted for you, Chloe, I want you to know that.

40:31.073 –> 40:33.577
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, so yes, you can, I would say.

40:33.657 –> 40:35.921
[SPEAKER_01]: So, when would try to help a brand grow?

40:35.961 –> 40:43.855
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously yes, I remember my early days of rev lifter, a guy said to me, like, if I wanted to get people and buy lots more stuff on my site, I could just stick 50% off.

40:43.835 –> 40:45.920
[SPEAKER_01]: across the whole site, everyone will buy more.

40:46.000 –> 40:49.989
[SPEAKER_01]: So you’ve got people who are coming to your site, some of them want to buy, some of them don’t.

40:50.771 –> 40:51.913
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are sitting on the fence.

40:52.194 –> 40:58.388
[SPEAKER_01]: And generally, when we’re talking about who to target with promotions, we’re talking about that sort of that middle column of people.

40:58.428 –> 41:00.072
[SPEAKER_01]: So you’ve got people who definitely don’t want to buy.

41:00.172 –> 41:01.455
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don’t want to show them anything.

41:01.435 –> 41:20.288
[SPEAKER_01]: You’ve got people who definitely do want to buy and you don’t want to show them anything because they’re willing to pay a full price and then you’ve got this big clump in the middle who are on the fence might might buy with the right offer might not and it’s understanding it as many of those people as possible like which ones can you get over the line but you’ve got a big chunk of people there who would buy at full price.

41:20.268 –> 41:27.757
[SPEAKER_01]: And we’ve actually had to retail as we’ve spoken to who when they’ve explained when we had a look at their data and we’ve seen what they sell a lot of.

41:27.777 –> 41:33.724
[SPEAKER_01]: They’ve got some hero products that they sell lots and lots of and we’ve actually even advised you could probably put the price up on these products.

41:33.744 –> 41:34.626
[SPEAKER_01]: They sell lots and lots.

41:34.926 –> 41:41.934
[SPEAKER_01]: If you’re saying lots and lots and you haven’t thought about a pricing increase and there’s probably room there to make even more money on those products.

41:42.195 –> 41:44.858
[SPEAKER_01]: But you’ve also got this big batch of other products.

41:44.838 –> 41:48.285
[SPEAKER_01]: which you’re not selling, which are just sat in your warehouse and they’re just costing you money.

41:48.305 –> 41:52.252
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the kind of things you should be running price promotions on to try and clear.

41:52.693 –> 42:01.690
[SPEAKER_01]: We’re trying to really understand the user, so the people who come to your site as much as possible, how likely they are to buy what their intentions are and whether they should receive an offer.

42:02.051 –> 42:07.521
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re on the other side of the data, which is your product data, what you’ve got to sell, what the margins are and those products.

42:07.501 –> 42:10.945
[SPEAKER_01]: But the demand is like, and you’re trying to sort of balance those two things.

42:10.965 –> 42:15.089
[SPEAKER_01]: You’ve got the classic, I don’t want to go all economics, but you’ve got the classic two sides applying demand.

42:15.569 –> 42:22.036
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you can try and make those two things marry up, you can make sure you’re selling everything for the maximum amount of money you can sell it for.

42:22.416 –> 42:26.821
[SPEAKER_01]: And that way you can maximize profit, but you can also maximize your sales.

42:27.221 –> 42:32.547
[SPEAKER_01]: So it’s definitely possible to do both if you understand as much of possible.

42:32.527 –> 42:38.503
[SPEAKER_01]: of the two sides supply and demand, and that’s what we’re trying to have trying to help retailers do essentially.

42:38.939 –> 42:40.721
[SPEAKER_03]: It does feel like it’s a lot easier now.

42:40.781 –> 42:52.413
[SPEAKER_03]: We have the algorithms that can crunch the data and take all these inputs to therefore extrapolate and guess what is actually going to convert the right person at the right price.

42:52.473 –> 42:56.097
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels a lot more possible than it was 10, 15 years ago.

42:56.137 –> 42:59.220
[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, you’re obviously all about growth.

42:59.260 –> 43:04.626
[SPEAKER_03]: Do your clients also want to be growing profits at the same time, or is that an unrealistic expectation?

43:04.606 –> 43:10.855
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I feel like that unicorn desire for a big time is very present.

43:11.456 –> 43:19.509
[SPEAKER_02]: I’d say branching out a little bit from the focus on just digital marketing and zero is thinking about channel differentiation.

43:20.109 –> 43:25.918
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of them are in retail on reatteller.com, on digital marketplaces, and.com.

43:26.339 –> 43:28.582
[SPEAKER_02]: So understanding what is the purpose of each channel?

43:28.843 –> 43:31.727
[SPEAKER_02]: So if dot com is your channel for profit,

43:31.707 –> 43:42.920
[SPEAKER_02]: but not for growth, focusing it in to say, okay, if it’s for profit and we want maybe our second, third time most loyal customers to shop there, we want a great retention ecosystem to support that.

43:43.100 –> 43:49.408
[SPEAKER_02]: But we know that Amazon, for example, is more hair recapturing demand of people that are already searching your brand.

43:49.748 –> 43:57.057
[SPEAKER_02]: You’re going to get high volume here, but we’re going to trade off your full company PNL with knowing that you have a more profitable channel like D to C.

43:57.037 –> 44:13.307
[SPEAKER_02]: So they’re coming to an understanding with the leadership team to understand what is the purpose for each channel can fundamentally change the structure of the profit versus revenue growth, but thinking about it more holistically and accepting the role of each channel in that objective.

44:13.979 –> 44:24.489
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we all know that to expect the same ROI on a marketplace sale that we get being very blanket about it that we get via our own channel is crazy.

44:24.910 –> 44:38.043
[SPEAKER_03]: But if we haven’t actually strategically gone, actually we’re happy to run the marketplace business at this ROI and we’ll run our D2C business at this ROI, then it must save so much bored room time.

44:38.583 –> 44:40.505
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I’m going, oh, but should it be here?

44:40.525 –> 44:43.328
[SPEAKER_02]: Should it not be here?

44:43.409 –> 44:48.882
[SPEAKER_03]: just clarity as well as success and I think clarity is such an important point when we’re trying to do all this.

44:48.922 –> 44:56.559
[SPEAKER_03]: So Sandeep profits sales growth all at the same time from a CRO perspective, what do you reckon?

44:57.862 –> 45:01.992
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if you were to make a lot of matrix of

45:02.292 –> 45:07.300
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, those four possibilities you have, we have hurt cells and profit.

45:07.941 –> 45:10.446
[SPEAKER_00]: We have help cells but not profit.

45:10.666 –> 45:16.175
[SPEAKER_00]: We have improved profit and hurt cells, which have way around the first strike now.

45:16.576 –> 45:20.402
[SPEAKER_00]: All we’ve made cells better and we’ve made profit better and I’ve seen

45:20.382 –> 45:23.746
[SPEAKER_00]: activity in each fall of those, you know, quadrants.

45:24.407 –> 45:30.555
[SPEAKER_00]: If you were to look at profitability, which I know Dan mentioned, you know, every product has different margins.

45:31.236 –> 45:49.140
[SPEAKER_00]: If you were to show people something they still want to buy, that is cheaper, but higher profit, you know, if you think about own brand versus, you know, kind of main branded products, for example, you know,

45:49.120 –> 45:53.925
[SPEAKER_00]: If people still buy, great, you know, profitability has gone up, but sales may have gone down.

45:54.906 –> 46:16.748
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you fix problems that would stop people from buying, at the same time is getting more sales, so more people buying things, you may also get people who are on the brink of buying a second product as part of that basket and tip them into buying two or three or four things because you’ve solved a genuine problem for them.

46:16.728 –> 46:24.564
[SPEAKER_00]: The fashion example is a very good one, you know, people don’t know what size they are, especially if it’s a new brand that you’ve not, you know, repeatedly bought things from.

46:24.604 –> 46:36.407
[SPEAKER_00]: If you were to give them some reassurance, you know, you can ship things back, which are not as painful to handle, but you can return things if you need to, and

46:36.387 –> 46:44.479
[SPEAKER_00]: If you know you are a Ted Baker size, whatever, at Mox and Spencer, here is the equivalent size for you.

46:44.519 –> 46:49.305
[SPEAKER_00]: That may well give people enough of the reaction it’s to go and buy more than they’re expecting to.

46:50.046 –> 46:56.996
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think on every direction of possibility of what could happen both with sales and profit, everything is possible.

46:57.056 –> 47:04.487
[SPEAKER_00]: I don’t think anything of the table is just how committed are you to finding the problem in the reason why

47:04.467 –> 47:09.567
[SPEAKER_00]: People aren’t buying more spending more at the same time, you know, all those things.

47:10.323 –> 47:11.124
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that answer.

47:11.144 –> 47:17.913
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Sandeep, and I’m now resisting the urge to get into the profitability or non-profitability of fashion returns.

47:18.915 –> 47:20.216
[SPEAKER_03]: Let’s not go there.

47:20.256 –> 47:23.781
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, we’ve had some fascinating things discussed.

47:24.122 –> 47:29.649
[SPEAKER_03]: I still feel like we barely scratched the surface of the topic we’re here to discuss, because it’s so huge.

47:29.669 –> 47:31.692
[SPEAKER_03]: But we’ve got in some really excellent subject.

47:31.712 –> 47:37.680
[SPEAKER_03]: I know it’s going to help our viewers live and on the replay and on YouTube and and and

47:37.660 –> 47:58.588
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I’d love to ask you each before we say goodbye to the audience is of all the stuff we’ve talked about, of all the stuff we could have talked about, what would be your key takeaway for someone listening who wants to go about growing the sales and profits within their business, where in 2026 would you be focusing, what would be your key takeaway for them?

47:58.608 –> 47:59.770
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can bring up

47:59.750 –> 48:03.574
[SPEAKER_03]: anything we’ve discussed and repeat it all you can throw something new into the mix.

48:03.634 –> 48:04.295
[SPEAKER_03]: I don’t mind.

48:04.956 –> 48:09.641
[SPEAKER_03]: Sandeep, I’m going to come to you first and then we’ll go anti-clockwise back around that.

48:09.661 –> 48:17.870
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the the first one for me and the most kind of fundamental thing is this kind of experimental mindset.

48:18.371 –> 48:21.154
[SPEAKER_00]: Not just because that’s what we do by genuinely believing it as well.

48:21.895 –> 48:22.956
[SPEAKER_00]: And it’s

48:23.257 –> 48:31.726
[SPEAKER_00]: don’t just do things and hope they work, measure them, make sure they work, roll back if they don’t, give yourself a standing chance.

48:32.227 –> 48:36.652
[SPEAKER_00]: Most large brands I’ve seen, you know, already have some flavor of this.

48:36.712 –> 48:40.996
[SPEAKER_00]: They’re kind of understood that experimentation is the right thing to do.

48:41.337 –> 48:47.003
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that’s the case, personalization is probably something I’ve seen most people not do very well.

48:47.152 –> 48:49.896
[SPEAKER_00]: which is just creep people like people.

48:50.437 –> 48:58.407
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, individuals, different needs, different goals, different fears and requirements and all that’s kind of stuff, just creep them like humans.

49:00.050 –> 49:00.210
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

49:00.230 –> 49:04.616
[SPEAKER_03]: I had someone on the podcast a couple of years and I cannot remember what branded is, sorry, everybody.

49:05.257 –> 49:11.005
[SPEAKER_03]: And today we’re talking about how they had reduced their number of promotional campaigns a year from like 12 to 10 or something.

49:11.525 –> 49:16.332
[SPEAKER_03]: And that had given them the breathing space to actually iterate and learn.

49:16.312 –> 49:34.763
[SPEAKER_03]: What was before it was just get it out, get out Valentine’s Day, get out Mother’s Day, get out Easter, and then because they reduced it, they’d actually managed to increase over all sales because, and increase profits because they were actually taking the lessons from each campaign and they had the time to take those lessons and to build those experiments in and to take it forward.

49:34.783 –> 49:37.468
[SPEAKER_03]: So huge, huge potential there.

49:37.488 –> 49:38.930
[SPEAKER_03]: So you look like you want to add something.

49:39.611 –> 49:40.092
[SPEAKER_03]: Go for it.

49:40.072 –> 49:42.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I took my own iterations.

49:42.155 –> 49:56.759
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s a subject I’ve spoken about and even if you’re in that kind of experimentation world, so many people will commit to the next three months worth work and regardless of whether or not they find a winner, they’re onto the next thing.

49:56.799 –> 50:00.145
[SPEAKER_00]: And this idea of hey, we stumbled onto something helpful.

50:00.245 –> 50:01.928
[SPEAKER_00]: Let’s go drill in and iterate.

50:02.448 –> 50:03.490
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s just a massive thing.

50:03.831 –> 50:06.535
[SPEAKER_00]: People do not do it enough and just said to

50:06.515 –> 50:09.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Push people to do when they’re for that guy.

50:09.281 –> 50:10.764
[SPEAKER_03]: You found a good avenue.

50:10.965 –> 50:12.127
[SPEAKER_03]: Go down at everybody.

50:12.167 –> 50:13.851
[SPEAKER_03]: Don’t just carry on with planner.

50:13.871 –> 50:15.916
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally, totally get me a coming from there.

50:16.296 –> 50:19.343
[SPEAKER_03]: Jamie, what’s your final thought for the audience, please?

50:20.335 –> 50:26.602
[SPEAKER_02]: given that most of the audience are sitting in some sort of digital seat, so to speak with their role.

50:26.762 –> 50:48.587
[SPEAKER_02]: I’d say the one thing for 2026 and one big thing I learned last year is releasing connected to your product team, and when I say product not digital product, but your physical product, if you are selling that, or if you’re selling a SaaS product, because reinforcing what I said earlier, you can’t sell a one-star product in the same way you

50:48.567 –> 50:59.082
[SPEAKER_02]: So the way I’ve, the tactical way I found it most beneficial is being able to share consumer insights to say, hey, digital is a really valuable space where you get very specific consumer reviews.

50:59.543 –> 51:05.251
[SPEAKER_02]: We can aggregate it in cloud, in chat, just to summarize some learnings with privacy pieces in place.

51:05.811 –> 51:18.169
[SPEAKER_02]: And let’s aggregate a lot of these insights to then feed into product development, R&D and creation, to ensure that you as an e-commerce leader or marketer have the right product to

51:18.149 –> 51:21.658
[SPEAKER_02]: So I’d say sometimes that foundation or fundamental step is lost.

51:22.079 –> 51:25.086
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you’re just trying to pull all these tactics to drive growth.

51:25.487 –> 51:28.314
[SPEAKER_02]: But without that fundamental piece, you’re not going to be able to.

51:28.395 –> 51:29.337
[SPEAKER_02]: So stay connected.

51:29.858 –> 51:33.728
[SPEAKER_02]: Be friends, but not best friends with your product partners.

51:33.927 –> 51:36.973
[SPEAKER_03]: That’d be friends but not best friends with the product team.

51:37.334 –> 51:38.155
[SPEAKER_03]: That’s very cool.

51:38.236 –> 51:41.823
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I might have to adopt that as my way of saying break down the silos.

51:41.883 –> 51:43.666
[SPEAKER_03]: No, be friends, but not best friends.

51:43.687 –> 51:45.450
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that’s puts it on the head.

51:45.470 –> 51:46.151
[SPEAKER_03]: Love that Jamie.

51:46.172 –> 51:47.534
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Dan.

51:47.895 –> 51:49.438
[SPEAKER_03]: You’ll take away for the audience, please.

51:50.077 –> 52:03.118
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I would say the goal of any promotion, the goal of basically any kind of activity you do, any bit of messaging, you know, email campaign, you send to people an SMS campaign, a pop up whatever it is, is to try and change behavior, right?

52:03.138 –> 52:10.971
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re trying to get someone, if you’re an advert or something, you’re trying to get someone who wasn’t going to buy something to come and buy it or put more in their basket or buy something again, whatever it is.

52:10.951 –> 52:19.326
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything you do is it changing that behavior, or are you just, this is behavior that was going to happen anyway and all you’ve done is is jump on board, reward it, flow along with it.

52:19.987 –> 52:32.530
[SPEAKER_01]: So the key thing is whenever you’re doing anything, whenever you, you know, whether it’s introducing you promotion, sending a new starting new campaign, sending you messaging out, introducing you payment option, whether it is, is it actually incrementally improving things?

52:32.590 –> 52:33.973
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you getting more customers?

52:34.033 –> 52:34.714
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you selling more?

52:34.734 –> 52:35.355
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you working?

52:35.335 –> 52:35.735
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever it is.

52:36.196 –> 52:41.901
[SPEAKER_01]: So making sure that every time you do that, keep that in mind, high impact changes are definitely more valuable.

52:42.001 –> 52:45.465
[SPEAKER_01]: So what are you doing that is actually going to make a really big difference and change things?

52:45.805 –> 52:48.968
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you focus on those things, you’re more likely to be successful.

52:49.068 –> 52:54.093
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re more likely to have the time to focus on it and not get distracted by other things that are less important.

52:54.533 –> 52:57.076
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a few small things that are really important if you’re a retailer.

52:57.116 –> 53:00.379
[SPEAKER_01]: What you sell, what kind of brand you are, what you stand for.

53:00.439 –> 53:03.942
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the kind of things you want to spend a lot of time on because they’re going to be different.

53:03.922 –> 53:08.186
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, if you always think about anything you’re doing, is it really going to change for how you get it?

53:08.206 –> 53:09.087
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it going to have an impact?

53:09.508 –> 53:10.309
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you measure that?

53:10.349 –> 53:11.830
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you prove that’s the case?

53:11.850 –> 53:14.413
[SPEAKER_01]: And that will guide you in the right direction most of the time?

53:15.494 –> 53:16.115
[SPEAKER_03]: Excellent words.

53:16.235 –> 53:19.738
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you all of the panel for being so excellent.

53:20.199 –> 53:23.682
[SPEAKER_03]: You have done a brilliant job of giving our audience loads a great nugget.

53:23.702 –> 53:24.543
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you all.

53:24.563 –> 53:29.068
[SPEAKER_03]: I’m going to let you all go and relax in the green room now whilst I finish off with everybody.

53:30.736 –> 53:35.745
[SPEAKER_04]: Ecommerce most Atlanta is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

53:35.765 –> 53:37.455
[SPEAKER_04]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

53:42.059 –> 53:46.105
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I hope you found that fascinating as fascinating as I did recording it.

53:46.525 –> 53:50.691
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, to get your hands on our notes from this episode, head to ecommercemostplanned.com.

53:51.072 –> 53:58.342
[SPEAKER_03]: You can use our direct episode short links that’s ECMP.info forward slash the number of this episode and that will take you straight to the right webpage.

53:58.763 –> 54:01.647
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you get to the website, please get yourself on our email list.

54:01.968 –> 54:05.653
[SPEAKER_03]: So you don’t miss out on any of the other things we share to help you improve your business.

54:05.633 –> 54:18.749
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you liked this episode, then I reckon you’re going to enjoy Episode 586, where we have the brilliant rich chapel XCMO of Jim Shark, sharing his playbook for getting from 8 to 9 figures.

54:19.309 –> 54:28.300
[SPEAKER_03]: It’s one of our, what would you do, WWID episodes, and you can find all of them at ECMP.info forward slash WWYD.

54:28.280 –> 54:33.290
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode of the e-commerce master plan podcast that you join us for.

54:33.751 –> 54:39.161
[SPEAKER_03]: We bring you a new interview every week because we want to inspire and help you to succeed and thrive with your business.

54:39.542 –> 54:44.532
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

54:44.833 –> 54:47.638
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

54:50.572 –> 54:53.985
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

54:54.447 –> 54:59.687
[SPEAKER_04]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.