1
00:00:00,120 –> 00:00:01,960
You know, brands always say like, “Oh,

2
00:00:02,020 –> 00:00:03,600
the conversion rate’s the
problem.” It’s like, “Well,

3
00:00:03,920 –> 00:00:07,380
we could just drop the price if you
want to fix that. ” Or as you said,

4
00:00:07,440 –> 00:00:11,820
just turn off all top of
funnel ads or whatever.

5
00:00:12,400 –> 00:00:16,400
But it is all about adjusting for
what the business metrics are.

6
00:00:28,400 –> 00:00:32,020
Well, hello and welcome to another edition
of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast.

7
00:00:32,080 –> 00:00:35,200
I’m your host, Brett
Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce.

8
00:00:35,700 –> 00:00:39,280
And today we’re talking
about full funnel CRO,

9
00:00:40,080 –> 00:00:42,880
how to optimize for
full funnel experiences.

10
00:00:42,940 –> 00:00:44,860
We’re going to talk about
subscription brands.

11
00:00:44,940 –> 00:00:48,520
We’re going to talk about CRO for
non-subscription brands. With takeaways,

12
00:00:48,620 –> 00:00:53,000
it’s going to be a lot of fun as well.
And so my guest is Patty McLaren,

13
00:00:53,360 –> 00:00:54,300
and I met him,

14
00:00:55,020 –> 00:00:57,540
got to hang with him a couple times
actually at the D2C Growth Summit.

15
00:00:58,060 –> 00:01:00,380
Once in New York City, recently in Miami.

16
00:01:01,440 –> 00:01:06,400
Dude’s presentation was killer, just
chock full of good ideas. He’s also Irish.

17
00:01:06,680 –> 00:01:08,960
So his accent is amazing.

18
00:01:09,940 –> 00:01:13,720
You’re going to love listening
to him for a variety of reasons.

19
00:01:13,840 –> 00:01:17,560
And so he is the founder
of PM Digital Designs,

20
00:01:18,140 –> 00:01:21,720
and we are going to get after it. So
with that, Patty, how’s it going, man,

21
00:01:21,780 –> 00:01:22,613
and welcome to the show.

22
00:01:23,340 –> 00:01:25,940
Thank you so much, Brett. Thank
you for having me. I am amazing.

23
00:01:26,200 –> 00:01:27,033
Cannot complain.

24
00:01:28,500 –> 00:01:31,880
Love it, man. I love this
topic. And as you know,

25
00:01:32,460 –> 00:01:36,400
more of an ad guy and we focus
a lot on YouTube and Google,

26
00:01:36,460 –> 00:01:40,300
but we certainly love Meta
and lean into Meta as well.

27
00:01:40,440 –> 00:01:44,520
So I love the excitement of getting more
traffic and closing more deals and more

28
00:01:44,560 –> 00:01:48,680
new customers and things like that.
But often the greatest to unlock,

29
00:01:48,740 –> 00:01:51,180
the greatest unlock for
the next level of spend,

30
00:01:51,640 –> 00:01:56,300
the greatest unlock for the next level
of growth isn’t with ad tweaks, right?

31
00:01:56,360 –> 00:01:58,380
It’s not. With media buying or creative,

32
00:01:58,440 –> 00:02:00,300
although those things
are extremely important,

33
00:02:00,960 –> 00:02:05,140
could be the next level of growth can be
unlocked by CRO and better landing page

34
00:02:05,160 –> 00:02:05,993
experience,

35
00:02:06,200 –> 00:02:10,700
better full funnel CRO so that
you can do more with the people

36
00:02:11,240 –> 00:02:12,560
visiting your site.

37
00:02:12,640 –> 00:02:16,300
And so you want to kind of just
briefly explain to people what you do,

38
00:02:16,420 –> 00:02:19,420
and then we’re going to dig into
all kinds of tips and ideas.

39
00:02:20,420 –> 00:02:22,880
Yeah. So pretty good intro there from you,

40
00:02:23,140 –> 00:02:27,780
but we are a full funnel
CRO agency and we work with

41
00:02:28,460 –> 00:02:31,360
all types of seven, eight, some
nine figure e-commerce brands.

42
00:02:31,540 –> 00:02:34,960
And I guess the whole goal for
us is just to, as you mentioned,

43
00:02:35,060 –> 00:02:39,120
kind of make sure we have that ad
to post-click or as people call it,

44
00:02:39,180 –> 00:02:43,700
landed page congruency. I think
it’s definitely a neglected area.

45
00:02:43,760 –> 00:02:46,120
And there’s a lot of, I suppose,

46
00:02:46,180 –> 00:02:50,660
focus coming into it now as people
have realized that Meta and all the ad

47
00:02:50,700 –> 00:02:53,760
platforms, especially Google as well,
are just getting more and more expensive.

48
00:02:53,820 –> 00:02:58,140
So how do we actually optimize for
that and how do we drive the cost as

49
00:02:58,240 –> 00:03:01,880
physically those possible? And we can do
that through the post-click experience.

50
00:03:01,940 –> 00:03:04,860
So we focus on the entire thing and yeah,

51
00:03:04,920 –> 00:03:09,620
I’m excited to kind of chat on that
and give away some of the secret sauce

52
00:03:09,860 –> 00:03:10,693
as they say.

53
00:03:11,400 –> 00:03:14,580
Love it. Love it. Yeah. Because
I mean, really getting the click,

54
00:03:14,700 –> 00:03:17,360
getting someone to stop, pay
attention, getting the click,

55
00:03:17,700 –> 00:03:19,260
that’s really only half the battle, right?

56
00:03:19,380 –> 00:03:22,640
What do you do with that visitor
after they visit your site?

57
00:03:22,880 –> 00:03:26,420
I’ll give you kind of just a physical
world example because I think this is a

58
00:03:26,480 –> 00:03:29,340
good illustration and maybe
will help us reframe and say,

59
00:03:30,300 –> 00:03:33,780
“I’m probably not putting enough time
and energy and attention into CRO.” Have

60
00:03:33,920 –> 00:03:35,220
you ever done trade shows, Pat?

61
00:03:35,300 –> 00:03:38,500
You ever had a booth at a trade show
or I’m sure you’ve been to trade shows,

62
00:03:38,560 –> 00:03:39,393
but have you ever had a booth?

63
00:03:40,440 –> 00:03:41,600
We’ve done small ones,

64
00:03:41,660 –> 00:03:46,280
but probably nothing really to
the extent of a proper trade show,

65
00:03:46,340 –> 00:03:48,880
but I get where you’re going
with this. I’ve been to plenty.

66
00:03:49,840 –> 00:03:50,220
Yeah. Yeah.

67
00:03:50,220 –> 00:03:54,460
And so we’ve done trade
shows and depending on what
B2B trade show you’re going

68
00:03:54,500 –> 00:03:57,240
to, maybe you’re dropping 15 to 30 grand,

69
00:03:57,300 –> 00:03:59,200
maybe you’re dropping a
hundred grand to be there.

70
00:03:59,420 –> 00:04:02,780
And it’s always a really
interesting contrast.

71
00:04:02,860 –> 00:04:06,100
I see some booths where the booths are
beautiful, good messaging, everything,

72
00:04:06,680 –> 00:04:09,740
but the people in the booth are just
kind of sitting and they’re not engaging

73
00:04:09,780 –> 00:04:12,000
with people that are passing by. Or worse,

74
00:04:12,060 –> 00:04:15,580
they’re on their phone or not paying
attention or maybe the booth is empty and

75
00:04:15,600 –> 00:04:16,400
they’re like, “Man,

76
00:04:16,400 –> 00:04:19,560
you just spent a whole lot of money to
be in front of this traffic and you’re

77
00:04:19,580 –> 00:04:20,413
doing nothing with it.

78
00:04:20,440 –> 00:04:23,720
” Then you see other booths where the
people at the booth are engaged and

79
00:04:23,740 –> 00:04:25,420
they’re talking to people, they’re
stopping people as they walk by,

80
00:04:25,480 –> 00:04:26,460
they may be handing things out.

81
00:04:26,520 –> 00:04:29,920
Maybe they got some people from the booth
that are out milling in the crowd and

82
00:04:29,940 –> 00:04:34,820
then they’ve got a good follow-up system.
And some trade show booths,

83
00:04:34,980 –> 00:04:37,920
people collect the names and
then they do nothing with it.

84
00:04:38,260 –> 00:04:41,160
And so it’s just one of those things
where we’ve got to think about this

85
00:04:41,280 –> 00:04:42,480
holistically, right?

86
00:04:42,800 –> 00:04:46,920
The biggest expense we have is our
paid media and often the creative that

87
00:04:46,960 –> 00:04:50,580
supports it. We’re dropping, a
lot of us dropping six figures,

88
00:04:51,000 –> 00:04:54,660
some high six figures, some seven figures,
mid seven figures on ads each month.

89
00:04:55,260 –> 00:04:57,820
But then what do we do with those
people once they visit the site?

90
00:04:57,880 –> 00:05:01,240
And so maybe let’s break this down,
patting something this could be helpful.

91
00:05:01,780 –> 00:05:04,580
What are some of the biggest
mistakes you see brands making?

92
00:05:04,640 –> 00:05:07,540
So you’re auditing a
brand for full funnel CRO.

93
00:05:07,920 –> 00:05:09,840
What are they missing most of the time?

94
00:05:11,040 –> 00:05:14,020
Yeah, I mean, you’ve nailed it perfectly
there. I think that’s a really,

95
00:05:14,280 –> 00:05:18,260
really unique example. But I think
the biggest mistake we see is, I mean,

96
00:05:18,320 –> 00:05:23,040
first of all, as people know, there’s
cold, warm, hot traffic, as you could say.

97
00:05:24,080 –> 00:05:28,400
They send all three of them to the same
type of page or the exact same page as

98
00:05:28,420 –> 00:05:31,540
that. And when you say that
out loud, it’s just like,

99
00:05:31,600 –> 00:05:36,280
why are you not making that funnel a
lot more aligned to where they are in

100
00:05:36,340 –> 00:05:38,120
terms of maybe their mental state,

101
00:05:38,560 –> 00:05:42,760
but also like how aware are they of your
brand or the problem they have and also

102
00:05:43,280 –> 00:05:45,380
are they ready to buy? And in most cases,

103
00:05:45,980 –> 00:05:47,700
the ad gets the click as you’ve mentioned,

104
00:05:48,080 –> 00:05:52,140
but most of the time they’re
not just ready to buy just yet.

105
00:05:52,200 –> 00:05:54,780
They’ve maybe seen your brand
once, maybe with the ad two,

106
00:05:54,860 –> 00:05:58,500
three times. They’ve got, let’s educate
them, let’s handle those objections.

107
00:05:58,560 –> 00:06:00,380
So that’s probably one big mistake we see.

108
00:06:00,560 –> 00:06:01,960
But as well then- You’re treating all.

109
00:06:02,060 –> 00:06:03,760
Traffic the same. It doesn’t make sense.

110
00:06:05,320 –> 00:06:07,420
If you’re in a restaurant and
you had regulars coming in,

111
00:06:07,500 –> 00:06:09,940
you’d probably speak to them differently
than you would a first time customer,

112
00:06:10,460 –> 00:06:13,180
but yet with our landing pages, we
say the same thing to everybody.

113
00:06:13,740 –> 00:06:14,573
Yeah, exactly.

114
00:06:14,640 –> 00:06:18,900
And then the next thing is probably the
fact that people actually don’t build

115
00:06:18,940 –> 00:06:22,780
out landing pages in general. So of
course this is very niche specific.

116
00:06:23,240 –> 00:06:27,020
With fashion brands, it’s a bit
of a harder kind of sell. I mean,

117
00:06:27,080 –> 00:06:30,960
how much do we really need to go into
detail in terms of someone going to buy a

118
00:06:31,020 –> 00:06:35,520
pair of jeans or some pants or whatever
it is that we’re trying to sell.

119
00:06:35,600 –> 00:06:37,720
But I mean, there is
still brands that do it.

120
00:06:37,780 –> 00:06:41,240
You have the most renowned
one maybe in Hollowsox,

121
00:06:41,780 –> 00:06:45,240
they are very deep into
landing pages and funnels.

122
00:06:45,320 –> 00:06:49,700
But I think the key thing in all of this
is it’s brands that can solve a problem

123
00:06:50,000 –> 00:06:54,980
or brands that can go against maybe
the norm or can provide a solution to

124
00:06:55,060 –> 00:06:56,520
someone’s issues. So yeah,

125
00:06:56,600 –> 00:06:59,560
that’s probably some of the biggest
issues we see in terms of just that

126
00:06:59,600 –> 00:07:00,260
congruency,

127
00:07:00,260 –> 00:07:04,020
as you mentioned as well. There’s just
none of it from ad to the post click.

128
00:07:04,540 –> 00:07:06,100
So it’s a big focus for us as always.

129
00:07:07,520 –> 00:07:08,620
Yeah. It’s so good.

130
00:07:08,680 –> 00:07:13,160
And I remember reading this retail book
called Why We Buy by a guy named Paco

131
00:07:13,240 –> 00:07:15,960
Underhill, and he’s talking about
retail brick and mortar experiences,

132
00:07:16,020 –> 00:07:17,000
which is a phenomenal read.

133
00:07:17,000 –> 00:07:19,120
I think there’s a lot of
applications online as well.

134
00:07:19,780 –> 00:07:22,220
But he talks about how when
people walk into a retail store,

135
00:07:22,280 –> 00:07:25,520
a lot of times they’re asking, “Am I
in the right place? Should I be here?

136
00:07:27,920 –> 00:07:30,160
Is this my type of place,
my type of product?

137
00:07:30,560 –> 00:07:33,500
Should I be shopping here?” And people
are saying the same thing when they visit

138
00:07:33,670 –> 00:07:34,530
your landing page, right?

139
00:07:34,840 –> 00:07:39,400
There’s something about your ad and your
targeting that got someone to click,

140
00:07:39,560 –> 00:07:41,510
but then the first thing they’re
asking when they get there is,

141
00:07:42,590 –> 00:07:47,000
“Should I be here or should I bail?”
And so can you talk a little bit about

142
00:07:47,000 –> 00:07:47,833
that? How do we

143
00:07:48,750 –> 00:07:53,720
make that transition from ad to lander?
What should that look like in an

144
00:07:53,720 –> 00:07:54,553
optimal way?

145
00:07:55,760 –> 00:08:00,680
Yeah. So I mean, the way we try
and do it is it depends, as I said,

146
00:08:00,880 –> 00:08:03,920
kind of on where they are on
your sort of funnel level,

147
00:08:04,160 –> 00:08:05,840
as in if they just met you,

148
00:08:06,480 –> 00:08:09,520
the main thing we’re trying to push now
really is like you’ve got the average

149
00:08:09,560 –> 00:08:14,000
page of a listicle, a product page,
you’ve got collection page, homepages,

150
00:08:14,120 –> 00:08:16,000
they’re all just a landing
page at the end of the day,

151
00:08:16,440 –> 00:08:19,840
but it’s the style and the angle
of copy in which you have to take.

152
00:08:20,200 –> 00:08:23,120
And I think people neglect that
part of it. It’s like, “Oh,

153
00:08:23,280 –> 00:08:25,280
what page should I do? ” It’s like, well,

154
00:08:25,680 –> 00:08:30,410
what’s the main issues you’re trying to
solve and where is your audience within

155
00:08:30,610 –> 00:08:35,280
that level of the funnel? So we try
and kind of spread it across, well,

156
00:08:35,760 –> 00:08:38,640
we try and go avatar
specific or persona specific.

157
00:08:38,840 –> 00:08:42,400
So if a brand comes to us and they
have no landing page whatsoever,

158
00:08:42,800 –> 00:08:45,560
we’ll maybe aim for a
listical and advertorial,

159
00:08:46,200 –> 00:08:50,440
optimizing their product page.
The areas that people actually buy and the

160
00:08:51,490 –> 00:08:54,030
areas that we can kind of
move the needle the most,

161
00:08:54,120 –> 00:08:57,890
as I said on stage when you were there
was trying to get close to revenue.

162
00:08:58,890 –> 00:09:03,600
So we always look at the copy
they’re doing, so what’s the angle?

163
00:09:03,960 –> 00:09:07,560
And also then what’s the offer?
Because they’re the two things alone,

164
00:09:08,560 –> 00:09:09,840
as well as having a good product.

165
00:09:10,680 –> 00:09:14,680
They’re the two key things that you need
or you need to optimize in order to get

166
00:09:14,880 –> 00:09:15,713
scale.

167
00:09:15,720 –> 00:09:19,440
So the page is kind of just a mechanism
in which we get someone to that next

168
00:09:19,480 –> 00:09:22,350
stage, whether it be to add to cart,

169
00:09:22,360 –> 00:09:26,410
go to the product page or checkout.
So it really depends per brand,

170
00:09:26,470 –> 00:09:28,910
but one of my favorites
is advertorials. I mean,

171
00:09:29,790 –> 00:09:33,560
if you get someone who is
maybe solving some sort of …

172
00:09:34,190 –> 00:09:36,730
I always say if they put it in
you or if they put it on you,

173
00:09:37,150 –> 00:09:39,410
as in you can apply it to
yourself or you can consume it,

174
00:09:40,010 –> 00:09:43,290
then you’re able to run advertorials
because you can get really deep into that

175
00:09:43,850 –> 00:09:46,670
consumer’s pain point that they’re
suffering with at that time,

176
00:09:47,150 –> 00:09:51,310
provide the product as your solution,
the standard copywriting frameworks,

177
00:09:51,390 –> 00:09:53,370
except we’ve got a few secret sauce,

178
00:09:53,530 –> 00:09:58,230
little areas that we add to them that
kind of improve the conversions overall.

179
00:09:58,290 –> 00:10:02,050
But yeah, they’re probably some of
my go- tos when it comes to pages.

180
00:10:02,910 –> 00:10:05,270
So we’re looking at potentially
advertorials or listicles,

181
00:10:05,330 –> 00:10:08,370
and if it’s something you consume or
put on your body, perfect fit for that.

182
00:10:08,810 –> 00:10:12,470
And then on those pages, we can go into
problem solution or reason why copy,

183
00:10:12,550 –> 00:10:14,450
things like that. Give us an example.

184
00:10:14,510 –> 00:10:18,770
Give us an example of something that you
guys have built or been a part of just

185
00:10:18,790 –> 00:10:19,870
so this kind of comes to life.

186
00:10:20,870 –> 00:10:24,990
Yeah. So we have so many
that we do every single week.

187
00:10:25,070 –> 00:10:29,390
So one that we’ve kind of done that is

188
00:10:30,110 –> 00:10:34,430
a bit of a favorite of mine was, I
always call it campaign specific ones.

189
00:10:34,510 –> 00:10:36,510
So we built one for KXBody,

190
00:10:36,830 –> 00:10:40,750
which is a women’s product and
they’re- What’s the name of that again?

191
00:10:41,570 –> 00:10:45,030
Cakes. So C-A-K-E-S. So cakes. Yeah.

192
00:10:45,190 –> 00:10:49,290
Or you might not be able to understand
it in my accent. So it’s called Casebody.

193
00:10:51,790 –> 00:10:55,030
So it’s called Cakes Body and we built
a campaign specific one for them.

194
00:10:55,550 –> 00:11:00,550
Now we actually put a mini listicle
within that landing page itself and

195
00:11:00,570 –> 00:11:02,710
it was like a four reasons why,
but you could slide across.

196
00:11:03,050 –> 00:11:05,910
So it was only one section of the
page, loved something like that.

197
00:11:06,010 –> 00:11:10,030
But one thing that we’ve actually done
with a subscription brand we started with

198
00:11:10,090 –> 00:11:10,730
about two,

199
00:11:10,730 –> 00:11:15,490
three months ago was they were
very sales heavy on their pages,

200
00:11:15,630 –> 00:11:18,370
but what we decided to do was
we went through their reviews,

201
00:11:19,150 –> 00:11:22,270
their survey answers.
And what I always say is,

202
00:11:22,350 –> 00:11:23,470
“What are the customers telling you?

203
00:11:23,640 –> 00:11:27,310
” And we scraped all that together and
produced what we found was one of the key

204
00:11:27,390 –> 00:11:29,150
reasons, which was blood pressure.

205
00:11:29,570 –> 00:11:34,270
So they sell a tablet or a supplement
that helps with blood pressure,

206
00:11:34,890 –> 00:11:39,230
kind of controlling that. So we went
into an advertorial of controlling it,

207
00:11:39,350 –> 00:11:40,350
why should you be doing it,

208
00:11:40,430 –> 00:11:44,170
the warning signs and just really educated
the consumer because they’re a higher

209
00:11:44,610 –> 00:11:47,450
age demographic. Something
like that worked really well.

210
00:11:47,830 –> 00:11:52,730
And we actually seen a subscription intake
increase from them going from that to

211
00:11:52,770 –> 00:11:53,603
the buy box.

212
00:11:53,890 –> 00:11:57,710
And that’s like a huge win that we always
try and try and incorporate nice and

213
00:11:57,730 –> 00:12:00,910
early into the relationship. So
that was a cool one for sure.

214
00:12:01,450 –> 00:12:06,030
So going from ad to advertorial
then to PDP versus add

215
00:12:06,570 –> 00:12:07,403
straight to PDP.

216
00:12:08,090 –> 00:12:08,530
Yeah.

217
00:12:08,530 –> 00:12:11,070
And with that advertorial are
you kind of taking in some cases,

218
00:12:11,130 –> 00:12:14,570
taking like a problem, agitate,
solution type of thing where it’s like,

219
00:12:15,110 –> 00:12:16,930
here’s the problem you
probably want to solve,

220
00:12:17,370 –> 00:12:20,230
let’s define that and
agitate that a little bit,

221
00:12:20,890 –> 00:12:24,790
make sure the pain is really the top of
mind and front and center and then we

222
00:12:25,170 –> 00:12:26,003
provide the solution?

223
00:12:26,410 –> 00:12:30,330
Or what are some of the insider
secrets that you’re doing there?

224
00:12:30,930 –> 00:12:35,030
Yeah, I mean, that’s pretty
much it in a shortened context.

225
00:12:35,810 –> 00:12:40,070
We like to kind of do it as well where
the solution and the agitation is kind of

226
00:12:40,090 –> 00:12:41,150
within the transformation.

227
00:12:41,450 –> 00:12:45,770
So if someone started somewhere and we
actually try and use a real good review

228
00:12:46,210 –> 00:12:50,270
from the brand, so usually, and this
is what I say to brands all the time,

229
00:12:50,330 –> 00:12:54,650
your consumers have told you already why
they bought, what it’s done for them,

230
00:12:54,970 –> 00:12:57,430
why someone else should buy, what
were they dealing with before?

231
00:12:58,010 –> 00:12:59,510
So we reuse those really,

232
00:12:59,570 –> 00:13:03,210
really long reviews and technically
the older the demographic,

233
00:13:03,370 –> 00:13:07,470
the better your reviews will
probably be because they love typing,

234
00:13:07,530 –> 00:13:12,310
they love talking, the longer the page,
the more they love it. Again, it’s just

235
00:13:13,880 –> 00:13:16,690
an interesting mindset
they’re in. But yeah,

236
00:13:16,970 –> 00:13:20,070
we utilize something like that and
that becomes the transformation.

237
00:13:21,370 –> 00:13:25,130
And then you obviously go into the offer
and then you try and give them that

238
00:13:25,190 –> 00:13:28,990
last final special piece where you’re
kind of trying to get them back into that

239
00:13:29,050 –> 00:13:32,390
offer to maybe click onto the
product page. Or to be fair,

240
00:13:32,450 –> 00:13:34,370
this is kind of something
we get asked all the time.

241
00:13:35,390 –> 00:13:38,230
“Do I put my product page on
the landing page or, sorry,

242
00:13:38,290 –> 00:13:40,470
do I put my offer on the landing page?

243
00:13:40,670 –> 00:13:43,570
Do I try and push them to a product page?

244
00:13:43,650 –> 00:13:46,070
Do I just educate them
here and then push them on?

245
00:13:46,630 –> 00:13:51,630
“My answer is you test it and that’s
why split testing is so important

246
00:13:52,310 –> 00:13:54,850
across brands because
there’s no one size fits all.

247
00:13:54,990 –> 00:13:57,210
And if you have that question right now,

248
00:13:57,350 –> 00:14:00,870
I would just advise you to test it because
nobody actually knows the answer to

249
00:14:00,890 –> 00:14:01,723
that one.

250
00:14:02,030 –> 00:14:05,510
Yeah. It’s a really good insight, right?
It depends on your product, your offer,

251
00:14:05,970 –> 00:14:09,110
who’s landing on that page,
lots of factors there.

252
00:14:09,170 –> 00:14:13,710
And so you do have to test it. For
Boom Beauty or Boom by Cindy Joseph,

253
00:14:14,010 –> 00:14:15,450
my buddy Ezra Firestone,

254
00:14:15,510 –> 00:14:19,390
we helped them scale on YouTube
maybe eight or 10 years ago,

255
00:14:19,530 –> 00:14:23,530
still work with them. But for a long time,

256
00:14:23,710 –> 00:14:26,410
their top performer was add to a,

257
00:14:27,350 –> 00:14:29,430
as we called it a
pre-sell engagement page,

258
00:14:29,830 –> 00:14:33,510
very much like advertorial type of thing,
and then that sends to an offer page.

259
00:14:34,370 –> 00:14:37,930
He did actually put pricing and kind of
the offer on that pre-sale engagement

260
00:14:37,950 –> 00:14:41,310
page. They tested it both ways.
For them, for that beauty brand,

261
00:14:41,510 –> 00:14:45,570
it made sense to put it there, but you
do have to test it 100% agree with that.

262
00:14:46,070 –> 00:14:47,110
And I love that you call.

263
00:14:47,230 –> 00:14:48,063
Out.

264
00:14:48,310 –> 00:14:52,790
What are those good stories, those good
use cases and just bring those to life?

265
00:14:53,370 –> 00:14:57,490
If think about B2B marketing and what
I’m asking you and what your prospective

266
00:14:57,510 –> 00:15:00,390
clients ask you is like, ” Hey, Patty,
what have you done? Who have you helped?

267
00:15:01,190 –> 00:15:02,150
Tell me what you did for cake.

268
00:15:03,570 –> 00:15:07,030
“It’s the same when you’re
selling consumer products
to a certain degree, right?

269
00:15:08,090 –> 00:15:11,870
Who has this worked for? Tell me a
little bit of a story about that.

270
00:15:12,290 –> 00:15:15,550
Lead me through so I can see how it
might be able to work for me. And yeah,

271
00:15:15,610 –> 00:15:18,370
bonus if you’re reaching a slightly
older audience because they love to tell

272
00:15:18,450 –> 00:15:21,270
stories. If you ask your
grandma, how did this thing work?

273
00:15:21,330 –> 00:15:24,450
She’s probably not going to say just
good or great. She’s going to be like,

274
00:15:24,460 –> 00:15:25,110
” Well,

275
00:15:25,110 –> 00:15:27,950
I first started noticing some pain in
my hips about three years ago. “I was

276
00:15:27,970 –> 00:15:30,930
like, ” Okay, buckle up. We
got a story going on here.

277
00:15:31,370 –> 00:15:32,203
“Exactly.

278
00:15:32,490 –> 00:15:35,910
I love that you said that though in
terms of actually telling the pricing as

279
00:15:35,950 –> 00:15:36,783
well, because

280
00:15:38,090 –> 00:15:42,630
you’ve still got to dip the offering
as you’re educating or handling

281
00:15:42,650 –> 00:15:45,190
objections or whatever it is that
you’re trying to do with that page,

282
00:15:45,450 –> 00:15:47,990
because it can’t become
this big surprise either.

283
00:15:48,470 –> 00:15:51,890
You kind of have to softly let them
know what the offer and the pricing is.

284
00:15:52,410 –> 00:15:53,670
And then when they’re ready to buy,

285
00:15:53,770 –> 00:15:57,430
they might click a CTA or they might
just get to the buy box and then that’s

286
00:15:57,450 –> 00:16:00,990
when you can hit them with the
really good value stacked offer,

287
00:16:01,230 –> 00:16:04,130
which is something we
can go into soon as well.

288
00:16:04,990 –> 00:16:08,350
Yeah. I love that. And I think just
to kind of underscore this point,

289
00:16:08,830 –> 00:16:13,270
we’re always trying to find the
winning combination of ad angle and

290
00:16:13,310 –> 00:16:18,230
positioning to a particular audience
landing on a particular page.

291
00:16:18,570 –> 00:16:22,810
And that combination is going to be
different if you’ve got a different ad and

292
00:16:22,830 –> 00:16:23,990
you’re reaching a different audience,

293
00:16:24,330 –> 00:16:26,330
then the lander’s going to be
potentially different as well.

294
00:16:26,390 –> 00:16:28,930
And so we’ve seen this
a lot to your point,

295
00:16:29,390 –> 00:16:32,150
a lot of supplement brands that
we work with, the consumables,

296
00:16:32,810 –> 00:16:35,150
it’s almost always a
lander that works well.

297
00:16:35,630 –> 00:16:38,570
We’ve had a number of beauty
brands, boom, being an exception,

298
00:16:38,630 –> 00:16:41,550
a number of beauty brands where sending
people to the homepage from YouTube

299
00:16:41,950 –> 00:16:43,050
works pretty well, right?

300
00:16:43,710 –> 00:16:47,210
And sometimes it’s the same lander
that’s crushing that will also crush on

301
00:16:47,250 –> 00:16:51,310
YouTube and sometimes it’s very different.
So you do absolutely have to test.

302
00:16:51,790 –> 00:16:52,623
Exactly.

303
00:16:53,070 –> 00:16:56,170
I would love to … Yeah, let’s get
into, you call it offer stacking.

304
00:16:56,250 –> 00:16:58,230
What does that look like?
Break that down for.

305
00:16:59,010 –> 00:17:01,590
Us. Yeah. So just to touch on
what you were saying there,

306
00:17:02,510 –> 00:17:05,770
when it comes to different
page destinations,

307
00:17:05,870 –> 00:17:09,370
I think that’s something that’s kind
of untouched in the e-commerce industry

308
00:17:09,450 –> 00:17:13,730
where people just presume collection’s
the best, product page is the best.

309
00:17:13,790 –> 00:17:18,290
But the higher the IOV, sometimes actually
a homepage or collection can work.

310
00:17:18,410 –> 00:17:21,290
And obviously that depends on
the traffic source you know.

311
00:17:21,350 –> 00:17:24,750
But even just what you
mentioned on value stack.

312
00:17:25,090 –> 00:17:29,630
So this is kind of something that I
see brands just don’t fully grasp.

313
00:17:29,950 –> 00:17:33,310
And it’s really, really simple
when you think about it logically.

314
00:17:33,370 –> 00:17:36,450
And I always use something that’s
just like lying about here,

315
00:17:37,250 –> 00:17:41,080
like let’s call it these AirPods,
okay? So buy these AirPods $200.

316
00:17:41,520 –> 00:17:44,150
So if I had that offer in front of me,

317
00:17:44,830 –> 00:17:49,330
or I had buy these brand
new generation for AirPods,

318
00:17:49,390 –> 00:17:53,790
you get two free Airbuds with it.
You get connection to your iPhone,

319
00:17:53,850 –> 00:17:58,670
you get USB portability, you get location,
tracking, you get bang, bang, bang,

320
00:17:58,730 –> 00:18:02,630
bang, bang, like 10 value
stacks, maybe not that much,

321
00:18:02,730 –> 00:18:05,110
but value stacks that
actually have a cost to it.

322
00:18:05,650 –> 00:18:09,830
And when I was speaking on stage in
Miami when we were there together,

323
00:18:09,970 –> 00:18:14,650
I mentioned a couple of brands and one
of them is the famous IM8 that was kind

324
00:18:14,690 –> 00:18:17,110
of mega scaling at the minute,

325
00:18:17,210 –> 00:18:21,930
but they are nailing e-commerce
for supplements or anything to do

326
00:18:22,030 –> 00:18:25,630
with that industry incredibly well.
And one of the things they do,

327
00:18:26,210 –> 00:18:30,470
which a lot of brands do very well is the
value stack in terms of the supplement

328
00:18:30,510 –> 00:18:31,343
costs $60,

329
00:18:32,550 –> 00:18:36,870
but if you actually broke down all of
the individual supplements or ingredients

330
00:18:36,890 –> 00:18:41,770
that are in it, that will cost you $250
a month to actually buy individually,

331
00:18:42,510 –> 00:18:47,050
but your subscription of just our product
is $60 and we encapsulate it all into

332
00:18:47,210 –> 00:18:51,790
one capsule that you take daily. So it’s
trying to just incentivize the value

333
00:18:52,190 –> 00:18:56,550
for a consumer that they are also,
by the way, saving time, effort,

334
00:18:56,850 –> 00:19:00,290
and you get all of these things
in one tablet or one supplement.

335
00:19:00,350 –> 00:19:02,710
And I think that goes
unnoticed for a lot of brands.

336
00:19:03,730 –> 00:19:04,330
Yeah.

337
00:19:04,330 –> 00:19:09,130
It’s a really interesting way to
break that down or to create the

338
00:19:09,190 –> 00:19:13,450
perception of value because
most brands I don’t think have a

339
00:19:14,250 –> 00:19:18,110
price problem per se if they’re not
getting the conversions they want.

340
00:19:18,570 –> 00:19:23,050
It’s more of a value problem or
a value understanding problem.

341
00:19:23,110 –> 00:19:27,990
And so you can compare to the competition
to do the side-by-side comparison

342
00:19:28,050 –> 00:19:32,150
of your AirPods versus your Airbuds
versus AirPods versus others.

343
00:19:33,070 –> 00:19:35,270
Or you could take the supplement
approach and say, “Hey,

344
00:19:35,750 –> 00:19:38,590
we get ingredients and no one else or
the quality of ingredients that nobody

345
00:19:38,610 –> 00:19:41,490
else gets.” And if you were to go and
buy these individually, separately,

346
00:19:41,550 –> 00:19:45,990
try to make your own as an example, it
costs you five times what we’re charging.

347
00:19:46,050 –> 00:19:49,090
And so yeah, lots of different ways to

348
00:19:51,090 –> 00:19:55,570
stack the value. How do you guys think
about that? How do you approach it?

349
00:19:55,830 –> 00:19:57,350
Are you thinking about, “Hey,

350
00:19:58,430 –> 00:20:00,850
what objections am I
trying to overcome here?

351
00:20:02,350 –> 00:20:06,410
Do I need to create some pricing
anchors for someone as they’re

352
00:20:07,330 –> 00:20:12,090
considering this product?” How
do you approach this so you

353
00:20:12,110 –> 00:20:14,910
understand how to stack value for
a particular product? And again,

354
00:20:14,990 –> 00:20:16,230
if you want to give an
example, that’d be great.

355
00:20:16,790 –> 00:20:19,930
Yeah. I mean, you kind of touched
on it again there as well,

356
00:20:19,990 –> 00:20:22,010
just as you were asking that,
which is like price anchoring.

357
00:20:22,150 –> 00:20:23,930
Do you know that is
technically what it is,

358
00:20:24,230 –> 00:20:26,130
but I think if you encapsulate it at all,

359
00:20:27,170 –> 00:20:30,330
the main thing that we’re trying to
do is always handle an objection.

360
00:20:30,570 –> 00:20:33,990
And a key objection, no matter,
you could have a $20 product,

361
00:20:34,080 –> 00:20:37,950
a $2,000 product, everyone will say,

362
00:20:38,270 –> 00:20:40,010
or most people will say on the surveys,

363
00:20:40,870 –> 00:20:43,630
“The price is too expensive.”
No matter how cheap,

364
00:20:43,770 –> 00:20:46,670
no matter- It doesn’t matter how cheap
they want it. It doesn’t matter. Okay,

365
00:20:46,800 –> 00:20:49,670
it doesn’t matter. So you’re
always trying to combat that.

366
00:20:50,190 –> 00:20:52,290
And I think when you
have that top of mind,

367
00:20:52,730 –> 00:20:54,570
nobody really wants to pay for anything.

368
00:20:54,870 –> 00:20:58,190
They just need to see the value
in it first, and then they’ll pay.

369
00:20:58,310 –> 00:21:01,570
It’s kind of like a B2B, as you
mentioned, like you said this, but a B2B,

370
00:21:04,550 –> 00:21:07,730
a brand isn’t going to invest in the
service unless they see value or what they

371
00:21:07,770 –> 00:21:11,710
might get from it. So it’s the exact
same when it comes to B2C and actually

372
00:21:11,730 –> 00:21:12,563
selling your product.

373
00:21:13,250 –> 00:21:17,690
We always try to do it where a key
objection that we’ll take is we’ll look at

374
00:21:17,710 –> 00:21:19,990
the surveys. So we’ll set up
the post-purchase surveys.

375
00:21:20,450 –> 00:21:24,810
If any brand’s not running
that, incredible value.
So post-purchase surveys,

376
00:21:24,870 –> 00:21:28,350
you can even see what traffic
source they’re coming from
if you do it correctly,

377
00:21:28,890 –> 00:21:30,650
but you can literally
find out why they bought,

378
00:21:31,130 –> 00:21:34,790
what is it that you’re buying this for?
Why us and not a competitor? As well,

379
00:21:34,850 –> 00:21:38,650
you can email your own customer
list and just ask them questions,

380
00:21:38,710 –> 00:21:39,950
especially subscribers.

381
00:21:40,510 –> 00:21:45,150
And you can find out the real reasons
that they’re trying to buy this for.

382
00:21:45,210 –> 00:21:47,630
Yes, so important. Exactly.

383
00:21:47,710 –> 00:21:51,350
And why are they trying to really get
behind something or what is it they’re

384
00:21:51,370 –> 00:21:53,230
trying to fix or maybe
have a solution for?

385
00:21:53,390 –> 00:21:55,710
So we always keep that in mind.
And again,

386
00:21:57,230 –> 00:22:02,130
if we look at the client I broke down of
ours on stage was selling a mineral and

387
00:22:02,150 –> 00:22:06,510
it was a supplement, but he kind
of described it as 100 minerals,

388
00:22:06,850 –> 00:22:11,350
one supplement. And we
didn’t list all 100 minerals,

389
00:22:11,450 –> 00:22:15,030
but we listed the key ones
like vitamin C, vitamin D,

390
00:22:16,170 –> 00:22:20,290
calcium, magnesium, all the
mean products that people know,

391
00:22:21,030 –> 00:22:25,250
and we listed the price of them and
tried to kind of handle that as a

392
00:22:25,830 –> 00:22:28,860
$250, let’s just put it as
an example, price point,

393
00:22:29,380 –> 00:22:33,600
but the actual subscription is
$60 a month and it’s one pill.

394
00:22:34,060 –> 00:22:38,320
And I think that kind of is the
best way to think about it. So yes,

395
00:22:38,490 –> 00:22:40,920
you’re trying to handle
objections, but all of this,

396
00:22:41,640 –> 00:22:44,640
every single thing we’re talking about
has to be brand specific and you’ve got

397
00:22:44,760 –> 00:22:48,380
to do that research from your
customer. And our model is literally,

398
00:22:49,100 –> 00:22:50,320
what do they say, what do they see,

399
00:22:50,380 –> 00:22:53,960
what do they click? And if you can
figure out what they’re saying simply in

400
00:22:53,990 –> 00:22:55,320
reviews, in surveys,

401
00:22:55,480 –> 00:22:59,260
in all of the kind of ways you
can encapsulate data from them,

402
00:22:59,420 –> 00:23:03,200
then you will see exactly what their
main problems are before they buy.

403
00:23:03,320 –> 00:23:08,080
So should always be having that top
of mind. Customer is king always.

404
00:23:09,260 –> 00:23:09,520
Yeah.

405
00:23:09,520 –> 00:23:12,700
It goes back to that classic marketing
principle of we’re trying to enter the

406
00:23:12,760 –> 00:23:15,900
conversation taking place
in our prospect’s minds.

407
00:23:16,280 –> 00:23:19,490
And so the more insight we can
get there on what they’re seeing,

408
00:23:19,580 –> 00:23:23,980
what they’re thinking, that allows us
then to speak directly to that. Hey,

409
00:23:24,340 –> 00:23:27,040
this episode is brought
to you by OMG Commerce.

410
00:23:27,180 –> 00:23:30,140
That’s the agency that I get
the privilege of running.

411
00:23:30,640 –> 00:23:33,680
You ever feel like it’s Groundhog Day
when it comes to your marketing where

412
00:23:33,760 –> 00:23:36,720
every day’s the same, you’re still
relying on the same channels,

413
00:23:36,800 –> 00:23:41,140
got the same ads you’re leaning
into. Maybe it’s time to diversify,

414
00:23:41,280 –> 00:23:45,780
maybe it’s time to unlock new
growth. That’s what we specialize in.

415
00:23:46,540 –> 00:23:47,720
My guess is if you’re like most brands,

416
00:23:47,800 –> 00:23:51,480
you’re probably leaning heavily into
Meta ads and long live Meta. We love it,

417
00:23:52,400 –> 00:23:54,100
but you’re probably missing YouTube ads.

418
00:23:54,340 –> 00:23:58,840
And my guess is maybe
Google is underleveraged as
well. We’ve helped multiple

419
00:23:58,900 –> 00:24:03,040
brands go from zero to
five, 10, 15, even $25,000.

420
00:24:04,300 –> 00:24:08,320
A day we helped Karen Eka hear regrowth
product go from zero to $1 million

421
00:24:09,440 –> 00:24:13,680
in YouTube ad spend in 90
days while hitting their CAC

422
00:24:14,180 –> 00:24:16,640
target. And we’d love to see if
we could do the same for you.

423
00:24:17,080 –> 00:24:17,913
So we’d love to chat,

424
00:24:17,940 –> 00:24:22,620
talk about what it takes to scale on
YouTube and how ready you are right now.

425
00:24:23,160 –> 00:24:27,200
So let’s chat and go to omgcommerce.com,
click the let’s talk button,

426
00:24:27,860 –> 00:24:29,980
and we’d love to help you
dominate with YouTube ads.

427
00:24:30,400 –> 00:24:33,800
We’d love to kind of understand
that. So with this men’s supplement,

428
00:24:34,140 –> 00:24:37,600
it’s taking all 100
minerals, have to pay 250,

429
00:24:38,540 –> 00:24:42,680
use that as an example to do it all
separately or one pill 60 bucks a month.

430
00:24:44,240 –> 00:24:45,520
Nobody wants to pay 250 a month.

431
00:24:45,580 –> 00:24:49,780
Nobody really wants to pay 60 a month
either. They do want the benefit and if

432
00:24:49,960 –> 00:24:53,980
they can get the benefit which they’re
really after and feel like they’re saving

433
00:24:54,220 –> 00:24:56,160
190 bucks in this case,

434
00:24:56,660 –> 00:24:59,400
now they’re getting the benefit they
want and they feel like they’re saving,

435
00:24:59,900 –> 00:25:01,880
which is a real win there.

436
00:25:02,260 –> 00:25:05,540
Can you kind of talk through like what
kind of shift did you see in performance

437
00:25:05,560 –> 00:25:10,380
when you went to that angle and that
type of land or that type of value

438
00:25:10,400 –> 00:25:12,080
stack? What’d you see in terms of results?

439
00:25:13,040 –> 00:25:16,960
Yeah. So he already had quite a
few really high performance pages,

440
00:25:17,040 –> 00:25:20,180
or actually just this one high
performance page, really unique angle,

441
00:25:20,240 –> 00:25:23,240
really unique page. I’ve never
actually seen anything like it before,

442
00:25:24,300 –> 00:25:29,140
but we built out about eight to 12
different variations across like a two

443
00:25:29,200 –> 00:25:33,240
month to three month period
and seen cost per acquisition

444
00:25:34,180 –> 00:25:36,580
or cost to acquire a customer,
whatever way you want to call it,

445
00:25:37,220 –> 00:25:39,620
actually hovered the same or stayed lower,

446
00:25:40,020 –> 00:25:43,300
but it increased the amount of spend
you could put behind the campaigns.

447
00:25:43,820 –> 00:25:45,440
And I think people sometimes,

448
00:25:46,280 –> 00:25:49,720
there’s all these conversations of
what metrics are you tracking at the ad

449
00:25:49,760 –> 00:25:53,040
level? What really matters?
Our goal, to be honest,

450
00:25:53,180 –> 00:25:54,800
is and what we can affect.

451
00:25:55,320 –> 00:25:59,420
You might be able to look through like
click through rate at the landing page

452
00:25:59,460 –> 00:26:03,360
and all these mad things. But at the
end of the day, cost per acquisition,

453
00:26:04,080 –> 00:26:04,860
spend,

454
00:26:04,860 –> 00:26:08,900
they’re two things that we just try to
affect. And how we can do that is by most

455
00:26:08,920 –> 00:26:13,580
brands will try and just put the
key performing ads and utilize the

456
00:26:13,640 –> 00:26:16,900
page that we give them and actually
test it at the landing … Or sorry,

457
00:26:16,960 –> 00:26:19,280
at the ad level. And if brands do that,

458
00:26:19,340 –> 00:26:23,780
you’ll get a real return on has
this page made a difference.

459
00:26:24,260 –> 00:26:26,960
So we weren’t necessarily
split testing just one section.

460
00:26:27,440 –> 00:26:32,300
That was one section within a page,
but even with another client, we done,

461
00:26:33,220 –> 00:26:36,560
I think it was four advertorials
for a baby like BAM.

462
00:26:36,820 –> 00:26:39,680
So something that they put on the
baby’s skin to help them sleep like a

463
00:26:39,740 –> 00:26:41,600
magnesium sort of lotion.

464
00:26:42,360 –> 00:26:45,660
And we really went into statistics
and problems and everything like this.

465
00:26:45,740 –> 00:26:49,120
And you could tap into more of
the mother’s problems there.

466
00:26:49,600 –> 00:26:52,860
So you could tap more into she’s
not sleeping, neither are they.

467
00:26:53,700 –> 00:26:58,380
And just a lot of other things and the
value then becomes, as you mentioned,

468
00:26:58,880 –> 00:27:02,060
benefits over features.
That’s always the way it has to be.

469
00:27:02,780 –> 00:27:07,140
And we tapped into that for her as
well, or them, sorry, and it performed.

470
00:27:07,320 –> 00:27:08,460
With the exact same results,

471
00:27:08,600 –> 00:27:12,820
it’s always cost per acquisition
drops slowly as spend,

472
00:27:13,600 –> 00:27:17,700
as Meta then allows you to spend
or Google. But with this client,

473
00:27:17,940 –> 00:27:21,920
it dropped first and then it rose back
up to be on average the same cost per

474
00:27:21,960 –> 00:27:24,580
acquisition as they had before,
but their spend increased.

475
00:27:25,160 –> 00:27:27,440
So there’s many ways in
which brands can scale.

476
00:27:27,560 –> 00:27:32,520
And I think it’s so subjective
because on the back end of both of

477
00:27:32,560 –> 00:27:34,340
those brands, you have subscriptions.

478
00:27:35,240 –> 00:27:39,100
So you’re not even getting into the
conversation of what happened the

479
00:27:39,160 –> 00:27:40,200
subscription take rate,

480
00:27:40,700 –> 00:27:44,420
how many people actually went and opted
into subscriptions instead of one time

481
00:27:44,440 –> 00:27:48,120
purchase because then the brand’s
profitable over time in terms of customer

482
00:27:48,140 –> 00:27:50,720
lifetime value. So a lot to look at,

483
00:27:50,820 –> 00:27:53,660
but hopefully that kind of gives you
a sense as to what worked and how it

484
00:27:53,700 –> 00:27:54,533
worked.

485
00:27:55,320 –> 00:27:57,200
Yeah. Just a great reminder, Patty,

486
00:27:57,520 –> 00:28:01,760
that sometimes we optimize for the
wrong metrics or think about the wrong

487
00:28:01,800 –> 00:28:06,480
metrics. I do like looking at conversion
rate. I think it can be valuable,

488
00:28:06,540 –> 00:28:08,560
but in some ways it’s like ROAS, right?

489
00:28:08,620 –> 00:28:12,980
Where if I want to double my conversion
rate or triple my conversion rate,

490
00:28:13,420 –> 00:28:18,100
I’ll just shut off all top of funnel
traffic and go branded search only and

491
00:28:18,280 –> 00:28:21,960
conversion rate goes through the
roof. I’ve done nothing meaningful.

492
00:28:22,020 –> 00:28:24,720
I’ve actually probably
severely damaged my business.

493
00:28:25,300 –> 00:28:29,060
So maybe you want an increase
in conversion rate, maybe not,

494
00:28:29,120 –> 00:28:33,820
but really all you want is more
new customers at an acceptable

495
00:28:34,160 –> 00:28:35,220
CAC, right?

496
00:28:36,140 –> 00:28:40,580
Or I want to grow my number of
customers at an acceptable CAC

497
00:28:40,960 –> 00:28:44,480
and increase my LTV.
That’s the real win, right?

498
00:28:44,560 –> 00:28:48,420
Not going from some arbitrary
conversion rate number of 1.5 now.

499
00:28:48,480 –> 00:28:52,420
I really need to hit a 3.5 conversion
rate. Yeah, maybe, but really,

500
00:28:52,500 –> 00:28:56,280
are you driving new customers
at an acceptable cost?

501
00:28:56,920 –> 00:29:00,880
Are they spending more over time?
That’s where you win. And yeah,

502
00:29:01,380 –> 00:29:05,940
some pages will just hit your number,
but they’ll cap out and spend,

503
00:29:06,000 –> 00:29:06,833
especially on Meta.

504
00:29:07,980 –> 00:29:11,060
And so you’ve got to have a different
lander if you want to break through.

505
00:29:11,120 –> 00:29:14,740
I think that’s such a good
call out and a reminder,

506
00:29:15,440 –> 00:29:18,000
optimize for the right
thing. You don’t call Patty,

507
00:29:18,060 –> 00:29:22,680
you don’t go on this full funnel
approach just to improve conversion rate.

508
00:29:22,760 –> 00:29:27,040
You’re trying to unlock
new growth potential while.

509
00:29:27,080 –> 00:29:27,540
Maintaining.

510
00:29:27,540 –> 00:29:28,380
Costs, while maintaining.

511
00:29:28,420 –> 00:29:31,720
Profitability. I mean, the
problem we see as well,

512
00:29:31,940 –> 00:29:36,920
even just to touch one last bit
on that is brands always say like,

513
00:29:37,020 –> 00:29:38,800
“Oh, the conversion rate’s a
problem.” It’s like, “Well,

514
00:29:39,100 –> 00:29:42,560
we could just drop the price if you
want to fix that. ” Or as you said,

515
00:29:42,620 –> 00:29:47,000
just turn off all top of
funnel ads or whatever,

516
00:29:47,580 –> 00:29:51,580
but it is all about adjusting for
what the business metrics are.

517
00:29:51,660 –> 00:29:55,400
And that’s why we are doubling down
on brands that run subscription models

518
00:29:55,460 –> 00:29:59,360
because we’ve got a
brand up to 72% take rate

519
00:30:01,700 –> 00:30:06,340
With everything to do with
genuinely no Black hat, as they say,

520
00:30:06,440 –> 00:30:09,200
no opting into funnels that they
don’t want to. It’s genuine,

521
00:30:09,600 –> 00:30:11,380
good product backed by a good funnel.

522
00:30:11,980 –> 00:30:16,560
And actually everything talking about
the routine and optimizing for that deal

523
00:30:16,680 –> 00:30:17,513
intake. So

524
00:30:19,680 –> 00:30:24,160
you perfectly worded it there in terms
of just track for the right metrics.

525
00:30:24,500 –> 00:30:26,420
Don’t always look at what
everyone’s saying online.

526
00:30:27,020 –> 00:30:29,060
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well,

527
00:30:29,320 –> 00:30:32,300
let’s talk about
subscriptions really quickly.

528
00:30:33,060 –> 00:30:35,120
I love working with subscription brands.

529
00:30:35,640 –> 00:30:39,140
I’ve invested in a number of subscription
brands. The model’s just brilliant.

530
00:30:39,660 –> 00:30:42,060
And I’ve seen some, in fact,
one that I’m an investor in,

531
00:30:42,860 –> 00:30:46,020
right now they’re testing landers
that all you can do is subscribe.

532
00:30:46,080 –> 00:30:47,260
It is a product you should take daily,

533
00:30:47,680 –> 00:30:51,200
but this particular option
is subscribe or don’t buy.

534
00:30:51,640 –> 00:30:55,020
And that can work. But talk through,

535
00:30:55,460 –> 00:30:56,780
if I’m a subscription brand,

536
00:30:57,380 –> 00:31:02,120
what are ways that I can go
from my current take rate
of subscription up to 70%

537
00:31:02,540 –> 00:31:05,600
take rate like you’re talking
about with that recent example?

538
00:31:06,460 –> 00:31:09,420
Yeah. I mean, first of all,
it all starts with the offer.

539
00:31:09,940 –> 00:31:13,480
I think people get really lost
in, and I spoke on this as well,

540
00:31:13,720 –> 00:31:17,400
they get lost in this
like, here’s 35% off,

541
00:31:17,460 –> 00:31:21,480
here’s like 40 extra product all in
month one. And it’s like, okay, well,

542
00:31:21,640 –> 00:31:24,480
I’m going to take that and then
cancel tomorrow. So people,

543
00:31:25,020 –> 00:31:29,300
subscriptions are in this kind of finite
situation where they have to get a

544
00:31:29,420 –> 00:31:32,580
higher take rate without
increasing churn substantially.

545
00:31:33,280 –> 00:31:37,300
Churn is going to be there. Yeah. I mean,

546
00:31:37,400 –> 00:31:40,340
churn can happen with, they
don’t like the product anymore.

547
00:31:40,400 –> 00:31:42,980
They don’t need the product
anymore. Which I mean,

548
00:31:43,380 –> 00:31:46,720
if the product is good enough, should
probably get to that stage at some level.

549
00:31:46,820 –> 00:31:48,640
But they also then,

550
00:31:49,060 –> 00:31:51,860
which I spoke on is like they
just get too much product.

551
00:31:52,380 –> 00:31:54,460
And I think when you’re a
brand running subscriptions,

552
00:31:54,540 –> 00:31:59,080
you’ve really got to be careful on the
offer and the first time order. And stuff

553
00:31:59,160 –> 00:32:02,140
we look at is things like this. So
you’ve obviously got month one offer,

554
00:32:02,300 –> 00:32:07,220
that’s got to get them in. But people
then neglect months two, three, four,

555
00:32:07,360 –> 00:32:12,180
five. If you look at your churn
and you see that your LTV,

556
00:32:12,600 –> 00:32:14,920
customer lifetime value
is only three months,

557
00:32:15,600 –> 00:32:19,840
what can we do in month three that just
maybe gets them in an extra month or

558
00:32:19,880 –> 00:32:23,920
two? Can we give them a low cost free
gift? So something that’s really low cogs,

559
00:32:24,260 –> 00:32:25,340
so cost of goods sold,

560
00:32:25,780 –> 00:32:28,280
something that is really light
that doesn’t affect shipping,

561
00:32:28,840 –> 00:32:33,540
something that we can give them which
can just increase that level of LTV.

562
00:32:33,880 –> 00:32:36,780
And if we get your brand from
three months to five months,

563
00:32:37,340 –> 00:32:39,540
that’s two months extra
profitability. It’s amazing.

564
00:32:39,600 –> 00:32:42,280
That you’re not having to
buy again. Remember that.

565
00:32:42,360 –> 00:32:46,700
So I think it’s trying to
find that balance then of,
and I showed this as well,

566
00:32:46,760 –> 00:32:51,080
where people are optimizing for one time
purchase as well. And it’s like buy 30

567
00:32:51,240 –> 00:32:55,800
day pack, buy a 60 day pack, buy a
90 day pack on one time purchase,

568
00:32:56,480 –> 00:33:01,460
but yet they then offer a subscription
on that and slap another discount on top.

569
00:33:02,220 –> 00:33:04,940
And I think if brands actually just
loaded their website now as they’re

570
00:33:04,960 –> 00:33:07,920
listening to this and actually, if they
have subscriptions and looked at it,

571
00:33:07,980 –> 00:33:12,800
they probably don’t realize that they’re
giving away way too much margin at the

572
00:33:12,860 –> 00:33:16,780
start and trying to incentivize
higher AOV and higher take rating,

573
00:33:17,040 –> 00:33:18,200
all the metrics they can.

574
00:33:18,540 –> 00:33:21,940
So that’s kind of like trying to find
that balance is definitely one of them.

575
00:33:22,080 –> 00:33:26,720
I would say another way in which you
could do this is all around your wording

576
00:33:27,380 –> 00:33:32,020
and landing pages or even just
across your entire website, homepage,

577
00:33:32,100 –> 00:33:37,080
collections, product page, it’s all
about daily intake, consistent use,

578
00:33:37,260 –> 00:33:39,980
getting into a routine,
tapping into that habit,

579
00:33:40,460 –> 00:33:45,400
really trying to showcase that
if this product actually produces

580
00:33:45,460 –> 00:33:46,520
a benefit or an outcome,

581
00:33:47,020 –> 00:33:51,060
link that to the problem that they have
or the pain point that you’ve done with

582
00:33:51,100 –> 00:33:54,500
all of your research that you know that
they suffer with and actually put that

583
00:33:54,660 –> 00:33:59,380
into the product age with a lander.
And you touched there on subscription only

584
00:33:59,440 –> 00:34:01,100
funnels, they crushed.

585
00:34:01,940 –> 00:34:06,380
You will maybe see a bit of fluctuation
at the ad level because of course

586
00:34:06,940 –> 00:34:10,000
if you make it clear enough,
not everyone wants to subscribe.

587
00:34:10,380 –> 00:34:11,980
So you’ve got to kind of take that.

588
00:34:13,060 –> 00:34:18,020
There has to be that fine balance of
subscription and admetrics and all

589
00:34:18,080 –> 00:34:19,520
the other mad stuff that goes on.

590
00:34:19,600 –> 00:34:24,240
But I think the key thing is just
trying to see what is this offer?

591
00:34:24,980 –> 00:34:27,880
Does someone who has this
problem actually want this offer?

592
00:34:28,300 –> 00:34:32,420
We see a lot of free gifts. So
maybe if you subscribe monthly,

593
00:34:32,480 –> 00:34:36,120
you get a free gift with, or two
free gifts with month one order,

594
00:34:36,540 –> 00:34:37,820
then you get a free gift a month two.

595
00:34:38,240 –> 00:34:41,200
You maybe get an extra discount
or an extra gift a month three.

596
00:34:41,860 –> 00:34:46,740
But the key thing in all of that is
people then end up giving the free gift

597
00:34:46,780 –> 00:34:51,440
could be, oh, here’s extra. Let’s say we
sell sachets and there’s 30 per month.

598
00:34:51,780 –> 00:34:55,100
Here’s an extra five sashes or
here’s an extra month on top.

599
00:34:55,300 –> 00:34:57,080
But what did I say at the start?

600
00:34:57,140 –> 00:34:59,280
It was all around churn when
they have too much product.

601
00:35:00,140 –> 00:35:03,920
So we’ve got to find that nice balance
of can we give them some sort of merch?

602
00:35:04,160 –> 00:35:08,220
Can we give them a water bottle
that works with the sashes?

603
00:35:08,340 –> 00:35:09,280
Can we give them a shaker?

604
00:35:09,380 –> 00:35:13,480
Can we give them a digital
product that genuinely helps them?

605
00:35:14,120 –> 00:35:17,800
Maybe we work with an
electrolyte brand at the minute,

606
00:35:17,980 –> 00:35:19,960
very well known one in Cadence,

607
00:35:20,200 –> 00:35:24,720
and they are starting to look at marathons

608
00:35:25,240 –> 00:35:27,600
and runners as a big cohort of customers.

609
00:35:28,200 –> 00:35:31,040
So what they’re actually giving
out is you get a running cap,

610
00:35:31,680 –> 00:35:33,740
at some stage you get a free water bottle,

611
00:35:34,240 –> 00:35:38,900
but then you get this like
30 to 50 page doc from their

612
00:35:39,920 –> 00:35:43,600
head scientist on
cramping and fatiguing and

613
00:35:44,680 –> 00:35:49,540
actually supplementing four big races.
So I think

614
00:35:49,560 –> 00:35:53,760
that’s a key way in which you can actually
tie back the product and how you can

615
00:35:53,820 –> 00:35:58,700
actually make that experience much
better by giving something for free

616
00:35:58,760 –> 00:36:01,700
away. And it’s a digital download.

617
00:36:02,000 –> 00:36:06,560
So all it takes is you to have the
knowledge behind it, which still costs,

618
00:36:06,680 –> 00:36:11,660
but it’s not something that you’re
having to slip into an order.

619
00:36:11,720 –> 00:36:16,040
It’s not something that costs
an extra $5 every single order.

620
00:36:16,160 –> 00:36:20,560
So thing is trying to find that use case
behind everything that you’re giving

621
00:36:20,580 –> 00:36:25,160
away when they go to subscribe, but it’s
got to be the most incentivized way.

622
00:36:26,740 –> 00:36:28,800
Yeah, you’re really trying to
optimize a number of things.

623
00:36:28,880 –> 00:36:32,820
You’re trying to look at what is the right
amount of perceived value and how can

624
00:36:32,940 –> 00:36:37,800
I increase that perceived
value and give more benefit

625
00:36:38,090 –> 00:36:40,410
to my customer? Also,

626
00:36:40,950 –> 00:36:45,690
how can I line up that benefit
or the value stack in a way that

627
00:36:45,750 –> 00:36:48,320
leads to more consumption,
not less consumption,

628
00:36:48,630 –> 00:36:53,360
or that leads to a better stick
rate versus potentially encourages

629
00:36:53,970 –> 00:36:58,070
a churn rail. I’ll give you
a couple examples, one good,
one bad. I love cereal,

630
00:36:58,250 –> 00:37:01,320
right? And so as I’ve tried to eat
healthy, I’ve switched to healthy cereals,

631
00:37:01,390 –> 00:37:02,690
grain-free cereals and stuff like that,

632
00:37:03,800 –> 00:37:05,610
which for the most part I think are good.

633
00:37:05,730 –> 00:37:06,800
There’s a number of brands that I like,

634
00:37:07,070 –> 00:37:09,090
but I subscribed to one brand and
I think I actually made a mistake.

635
00:37:09,240 –> 00:37:11,470
I ordered too much product
and there were some discounts.

636
00:37:11,530 –> 00:37:16,360
And there’s one month where I got
three giant boxes and my wife is

637
00:37:16,410 –> 00:37:20,470
like, “What are you doing? Are we
starting a food pantry and I didn’t know?

638
00:37:20,750 –> 00:37:22,690
Is there a cereal party,

639
00:37:22,750 –> 00:37:25,840
like a block party where buying the
neighbors over to Easter? What is this?

640
00:37:26,040 –> 00:37:27,930
” So I churned. So I
stopped. I’m like, “Hey,

641
00:37:28,690 –> 00:37:33,470
too much product.” I actually ended up
buying from another brand next, right?

642
00:37:33,550 –> 00:37:37,490
So I churned from that cereal brand and
ended up buying from another brand later

643
00:37:37,510 –> 00:37:41,130
and I kind of liked the other brand
better. But if I had the right amount,

644
00:37:41,570 –> 00:37:43,690
I may not have churned,
right? So that’s example one.

645
00:37:44,610 –> 00:37:47,730
And I don’t work with that brand. I
just like the product. Example two,

646
00:37:47,860 –> 00:37:50,670
there’s a brand called
PerfectAmino Body Health.

647
00:37:50,730 –> 00:37:53,890
I’m not sure if you’ve seen them.
Gary Brecka is an influencer.

648
00:37:54,250 –> 00:37:58,510
He promotes their product, but
I don’t love protein powders.

649
00:37:58,810 –> 00:38:01,470
I like the benefit because
I work out and stuff,

650
00:38:01,560 –> 00:38:04,770
but usually upset my stomach and I like
the calorie. I just don’t like protein

651
00:38:04,790 –> 00:38:09,450
shakes. So I got an ad for perfect
aminos. And the whole thing is like, “Hey,

652
00:38:09,530 –> 00:38:13,210
perfect aminos. It’s like you’re
consuming 30 grams of protein,

653
00:38:13,270 –> 00:38:14,730
but there’s no caloric impact.

654
00:38:15,070 –> 00:38:17,630
It’s just the aminos that your body needs
because your body breaks down protein

655
00:38:17,650 –> 00:38:20,050
to get the aminos. We’re just giving
you the aminos.” They’re like,

656
00:38:20,200 –> 00:38:25,150
“This is brilliant.” So they also
gave a guide on how much amino acid

657
00:38:25,210 –> 00:38:28,070
should you be consuming and when and
how to do this with your workouts.

658
00:38:28,750 –> 00:38:31,970
That was an absolutely, it was a free
article, but as I read it, I’m like,

659
00:38:32,530 –> 00:38:35,110
“I get it. I get it now. I get
it why I can do this for me.

660
00:38:35,350 –> 00:38:39,850
I can do this instead of protein powder
and it’s going to work.” And so yeah,

661
00:38:40,390 –> 00:38:44,250
how are you stacking the value? How
are you increasing the perceived value,

662
00:38:44,870 –> 00:38:49,670
but doing it in a way that leads to
consumption and leads to stick rate rather

663
00:38:49,710 –> 00:38:53,290
than something that leads to just
lost margin and potentially churn.

664
00:38:54,150 –> 00:38:56,250
Yeah. No, I love that. That’s
a really interesting one.

665
00:38:56,470 –> 00:39:00,210
And I think the thing you can take
away from that is it was all about the

666
00:39:00,250 –> 00:39:03,970
product and backing up why you
should be taking that product.

667
00:39:04,530 –> 00:39:08,350
And I think that’s exactly what I
said with the other brand as well.

668
00:39:08,910 –> 00:39:13,210
We have some brands that actually
then don’t offer discounts,

669
00:39:13,270 –> 00:39:17,050
which is a really interesting
kind of take as well.

670
00:39:17,210 –> 00:39:20,550
But I guess you have to
provide value in other ways.

671
00:39:20,650 –> 00:39:23,050
And something that we
actually see as well,

672
00:39:23,630 –> 00:39:28,290
which is quite interesting is
we had a brand and they had a

673
00:39:28,350 –> 00:39:31,050
subscription and their
product didn’t taste amazing,

674
00:39:31,250 –> 00:39:34,230
but it had unbelievable sleep benefits

675
00:39:35,790 –> 00:39:38,930
and they knew their product
didn’t taste that good.

676
00:39:39,030 –> 00:39:40,870
But I guess if you’re taking it to sleep,

677
00:39:41,410 –> 00:39:43,770
doesn’t really need to taste
good if there’s benefits maybe,

678
00:39:44,290 –> 00:39:49,270
but it actually showed a higher churn
rate. So it’s like no matter how good your

679
00:39:49,290 –> 00:39:52,130
benefit is or the outcome or
whatever it is you’re solving,

680
00:39:52,350 –> 00:39:57,170
if it doesn’t taste great,
people will probably just rent.

681
00:39:58,030 –> 00:40:01,560
So it’s quite an interesting
one. You’ve also got …

682
00:40:03,470 –> 00:40:07,050
The last thing on that is what a lot
of brands do if they have different

683
00:40:07,070 –> 00:40:07,903
flavors,

684
00:40:08,270 –> 00:40:13,170
and this is like a really key
insight is test your subscribers to

685
00:40:13,250 –> 00:40:17,810
get maybe a free sample of that
new flavor or that new product.

686
00:40:18,530 –> 00:40:22,590
And it’s basically a way in which you
can nearly get more subscriptions to your

687
00:40:22,650 –> 00:40:26,190
other products or they might
switch, who knows? But again,

688
00:40:27,050 –> 00:40:30,670
actually showcasing different
flavor options to people
and letting them try them

689
00:40:31,110 –> 00:40:34,330
is a good way to increase
your customer lifetime value.

690
00:40:34,570 –> 00:40:38,330
It could actually improve your average
order value if they want to buy it as

691
00:40:38,390 –> 00:40:42,650
well and update and upgrade
your subscriptions. And I
actually want to add one

692
00:40:42,670 –> 00:40:45,430
last point to this. The
subscription portal,

693
00:40:46,550 –> 00:40:50,390
I think this is something that brands
forget is something that customers

694
00:40:50,530 –> 00:40:51,410
actually click into.

695
00:40:52,270 –> 00:40:55,670
And what I’m talking about
there in terms of flavors,

696
00:40:57,230 –> 00:40:59,650
you have to showcase these
flavors, you have to upgrade them,

697
00:40:59,750 –> 00:41:03,830
you have to upsell them, sorry, is
what I meant to say. And if you do,

698
00:41:04,090 –> 00:41:04,923
or a cross-sell,

699
00:41:04,970 –> 00:41:09,730
you could maybe argue they actually might
swap it if you allow them to do that

700
00:41:09,790 –> 00:41:12,070
easily, or they might add
it to their subscription.

701
00:41:13,110 –> 00:41:17,070
So I spoke to a brand yesterday,
that’s why this is a top of mind.

702
00:41:17,150 –> 00:41:19,270
And they stopped working with us
for about four or five months,

703
00:41:19,550 –> 00:41:22,670
and they’ve launched a new offers.
They’re actually like a digital offer,

704
00:41:22,730 –> 00:41:23,563
which is interesting,

705
00:41:24,210 –> 00:41:26,590
but their subscription portal and
everything is a bit messy now,

706
00:41:27,490 –> 00:41:31,510
and that’s actually leading to churn.
And so is the offer and so is the emails

707
00:41:31,530 –> 00:41:32,270
they’re getting hit with.

708
00:41:32,270 –> 00:41:36,490
And I think it just talks about our whole
scenario here of how do you increase

709
00:41:36,510 –> 00:41:38,610
subscriptions? There’s
a lot of layers to it,

710
00:41:39,230 –> 00:41:40,690
but I think if you start with the offer,

711
00:41:41,170 –> 00:41:44,470
the experience has to be good and
there has to be an outcome that they’re

712
00:41:44,490 –> 00:41:47,170
actually getting from your product in
order to actually want to stay with it.

713
00:41:47,510 –> 00:41:49,610
Yeah. It’s really good, man. Well,

714
00:41:50,030 –> 00:41:54,590
maybe have you give just on the fly
some thoughts on how you might approach

715
00:41:55,370 –> 00:41:56,850
different subscription products,

716
00:41:56,910 –> 00:42:01,550
thinking about quantity offers and
thinking about the way you’d present this.

717
00:42:01,610 –> 00:42:03,650
So let’s take a few of the
examples we’ve just talked about.

718
00:42:03,730 –> 00:42:06,420
So let’s take healthy cereal option.

719
00:42:07,530 –> 00:42:11,600
Let’s take this protein
alternative or amino acid product

720
00:42:12,710 –> 00:42:14,760
and let’s take hydration. I’m a
huge hydration fan as well as,

721
00:42:14,800 –> 00:42:18,120
but a huge unlock for me and my personal
health is getting enough electrolytes

722
00:42:18,320 –> 00:42:23,040
game changer. How might you approach those
differently in terms of how might you

723
00:42:24,410 –> 00:42:27,520
stack the offer or stack the
value and structure the offer?

724
00:42:28,000 –> 00:42:32,680
How would you think about quantities and
quantity offers and things like that to

725
00:42:33,080 –> 00:42:35,200
get kind of the right
amount of consumption,

726
00:42:35,400 –> 00:42:37,450
the right amount of product
for a given consumer?

727
00:42:38,840 –> 00:42:40,230
Yeah. Well, if we start
with the first one,

728
00:42:40,760 –> 00:42:45,560
maybe slightly heavier than the
other products potentially because

729
00:42:45,760 –> 00:42:48,960
it’s cereal, it’s in a box,
there’s maybe 500 grams.

730
00:42:49,880 –> 00:42:51,360
Dimensionally, it’s much bigger for sure.

731
00:42:51,840 –> 00:42:54,800
Much bigger. So you’ve got
packaging to put into that.

732
00:42:55,360 –> 00:42:58,600
So I think even just to touch
on all three, by the way,

733
00:42:58,800 –> 00:43:01,800
I think what people don’t do
enough is test the pricing and

734
00:43:03,320 –> 00:43:07,240
that alone could potentially take away
some of the costs that you have to deal

735
00:43:07,280 –> 00:43:09,600
with when you have a heavier
or bigger product. Now,

736
00:43:10,240 –> 00:43:13,720
the other thing I would say then
is when it comes to shipping,

737
00:43:14,360 –> 00:43:16,360
so if we just talk about all three here,

738
00:43:17,880 –> 00:43:21,440
the higher quantity should
technically achieve free shipping.

739
00:43:22,180 –> 00:43:24,760
But I would test this and a lot
of people immediately just go,

740
00:43:25,200 –> 00:43:28,640
“Here’s free shipping. That’s our unique
selling point.” And it’s like, whoa,

741
00:43:29,680 –> 00:43:34,160
you could be generating 25% of your
revenue through shipping, so charge it.

742
00:43:34,520 –> 00:43:37,920
And we’ve actually seen some really
weird tests where we’ve offered free

743
00:43:37,960 –> 00:43:42,560
shipping and we’ve charged for shipping
and the charge for shipping’s conversion

744
00:43:42,560 –> 00:43:46,000
rate is higher.
I genuinely don’t understand it. It does.

745
00:43:46,320 –> 00:43:49,080
It’s as if they feel skeptical. Yeah.

746
00:43:49,240 –> 00:43:52,000
They feel skeptical that you’re giving
me this free … I’m not really sure.

747
00:43:52,680 –> 00:43:53,513
You’re trying to.

748
00:43:53,720 –> 00:43:55,560
You’re really going to try hard
if you’re giving me free shipping.

749
00:43:55,640 –> 00:43:56,840
Maybe that’s a perception or something.

750
00:43:57,160 –> 00:43:58,000
It’s so strange,

751
00:43:58,240 –> 00:44:01,600
but that is something that all of
these brands should be testing. Now,

752
00:44:01,720 –> 00:44:04,480
if we go to the cereal
one, what is cereal?

753
00:44:04,910 –> 00:44:07,300
What does every age group
beats it, doesn’t it?

754
00:44:07,600 –> 00:44:11,120
So potentially you can do a
household type of offer where …

755
00:44:12,120 –> 00:44:15,010
And the big guys in the
industry grooms do this.

756
00:44:16,960 –> 00:44:19,330
They do it really well, really
cool offer that they do.

757
00:44:20,400 –> 00:44:22,500
But you could look at
household types of offers,

758
00:44:23,080 –> 00:44:28,040
which might actually incentivize a higher
threshold monthly of subscriptions,

759
00:44:28,440 –> 00:44:30,360
or you could tap into that. But again,

760
00:44:30,800 –> 00:44:35,680
I think it depends on what are your
customers in that niche of cereal

761
00:44:35,800 –> 00:44:39,040
actually telling you? Are they saying
that they’re buying for more people?

762
00:44:39,710 –> 00:44:42,800
Is it just themselves?
Do they want to buy …

763
00:44:43,190 –> 00:44:46,310
I think an interesting part of
where I’m going with this is,

764
00:44:46,710 –> 00:44:49,750
if you’re selling a
500 gram box of cereal,

765
00:44:49,870 –> 00:44:53,070
it would be interesting to know how
long that actually takes to get through.

766
00:44:54,010 –> 00:44:55,710
That would be the
interesting part as well.

767
00:44:55,790 –> 00:45:00,190
So if people could just get
through a box in one month,

768
00:45:01,010 –> 00:45:03,810
I could definitely get through a
box probably in two weeks or a week.

769
00:45:04,810 –> 00:45:05,950
I’m going a week over here.

770
00:45:07,350 –> 00:45:12,270
We’re smashing that. So again, I think
you need to tell them that and say,

771
00:45:12,350 –> 00:45:15,790
“Hey, this will last you a month or a
week.” And that’s where you could maybe

772
00:45:15,850 –> 00:45:19,810
incentivize a two week subscription and
a four week and a six week and an eight

773
00:45:19,850 –> 00:45:24,610
week, or maybe you do a weekly frequency
and people neglect that a lot. See,

774
00:45:24,670 –> 00:45:26,290
for all of these brands
that we’re talking about,

775
00:45:26,930 –> 00:45:29,870
the frequency level is something
that you should be testing,

776
00:45:30,030 –> 00:45:34,470
just genuinely offering more customization
with the frequency is something

777
00:45:34,670 –> 00:45:35,630
that’s really- The frequency of the.

778
00:45:35,690 –> 00:45:38,210
Delivery, how often are you
getting the product coming to you?

779
00:45:38,320 –> 00:45:41,670
Exactly. Exactly. And then if you
go into the quantity levels then,

780
00:45:41,870 –> 00:45:45,910
so if you don’t want to give
them too much selection.

781
00:45:46,050 –> 00:45:49,510
So if they come on and it’s like, buy
one, buy two, buy three, buy four,

782
00:45:49,570 –> 00:45:52,150
buy five, and then they
have to subscribe and save,

783
00:45:52,210 –> 00:45:53,370
and then they have to add the cart.

784
00:45:53,950 –> 00:45:55,590
You don’t want to give
them too many options.

785
00:45:55,650 –> 00:45:58,550
So potentially you have
the law of twos and threes.

786
00:45:58,630 –> 00:46:03,450
You could potentially just offer a buy
one or a second option of getting two

787
00:46:03,670 –> 00:46:08,270
boxes. Now, this is where we could go
into a bit more detail in terms of,

788
00:46:08,750 –> 00:46:12,050
is it buy one, get one free?
Is it buy one, get one 20% off?

789
00:46:13,370 –> 00:46:17,110
And really trying to stack that
value. But again, test all of these.

790
00:46:17,630 –> 00:46:22,410
And if we’re going then onto the second
one, which was your Amino product,

791
00:46:22,690 –> 00:46:23,523
if I’m writing saying-.

792
00:46:23,630 –> 00:46:24,850
Yep, yep. Correct.

793
00:46:25,130 –> 00:46:29,190
It also depends on how long it takes
you usually to give you 30 servings.

794
00:46:29,470 –> 00:46:34,430
Usually it’s either in a
smaller tub, big tub, large tub.

795
00:46:35,130 –> 00:46:39,510
So it’s trying to really see which
one could potentially have the best

796
00:46:39,530 –> 00:46:44,430
subscription metrics. Which one
is also the price comparison?

797
00:46:44,870 –> 00:46:48,570
Do we auto select the middle
offer? So if we have, let’s say a,

798
00:46:50,150 –> 00:46:53,930
let’s just call it for toxic, a 250
gram tub, which is nice and small,

799
00:46:54,620 –> 00:46:56,930
500 is a bit bigger, and
then you have a kilo.

800
00:46:57,890 –> 00:47:00,910
If we’re going for the 500
gram tub in the middle,

801
00:47:01,510 –> 00:47:04,790
that’s probably price
anchored between the two,

802
00:47:05,030 –> 00:47:08,010
and that’s probably the most
selected, the best selling.

803
00:47:08,690 –> 00:47:13,590
So we want to have those little notes
around that selector that actually

804
00:47:13,670 –> 00:47:15,550
gets people to want to buy the middle one.

805
00:47:16,170 –> 00:47:20,470
And the more expensive one might actually
make it seem cheaper than it is. And

806
00:47:20,490 –> 00:47:23,350
the less expensive one might seem like
you’re not really getting enough value

807
00:47:23,370 –> 00:47:27,070
for that size. So there’s a
lot of psychology things here.

808
00:47:27,130 –> 00:47:31,490
And I think everything me and you have
talked about today is just everything is

809
00:47:31,510 –> 00:47:32,343
psychology.

810
00:47:32,770 –> 00:47:33,770
It is. It is.

811
00:47:34,190 –> 00:47:37,870
Humans are just psychologically based
with every scenario and decision that they

812
00:47:37,910 –> 00:47:42,550
make. So you’ve got to really understand
that we don’t want to overload them.

813
00:47:42,790 –> 00:47:44,170
We don’t want to give
them too many options,

814
00:47:44,230 –> 00:47:48,610
but we want to give them just enough
that we can incentivize a higher spend so

815
00:47:48,650 –> 00:47:50,210
that we’re profitable enough as a brand.

816
00:47:50,870 –> 00:47:52,770
And that’s a key thing for all of these.

817
00:47:52,870 –> 00:47:56,290
And I think then if you’re
going to the last product,

818
00:47:56,350 –> 00:48:00,130
this is one that we are working on for
like three or four brands, to be honest,

819
00:48:00,210 –> 00:48:04,130
which is quite interesting. So we
have a lot of information on this one.

820
00:48:04,190 –> 00:48:07,070
But the key thing I would say is

821
00:48:08,790 –> 00:48:13,730
trying to actually just
give them the 30 pack

822
00:48:13,790 –> 00:48:18,710
sashes. So something that lasts
monthly is usually the best scenario.

823
00:48:19,370 –> 00:48:22,130
Interesting. Because
the more you stack on,

824
00:48:22,790 –> 00:48:27,290
we have loads of bundles for these brands
as well. We have a daily product and

825
00:48:27,310 –> 00:48:29,230
we have a sleek product
and then we have cans.

826
00:48:29,910 –> 00:48:32,450
So there’s loads of bundles you
can do. People do love them,

827
00:48:33,170 –> 00:48:36,470
but we’ve noticed that the churn is way
higher on the bundles because people

828
00:48:36,510 –> 00:48:38,850
will probably just subscribe
to get the extra discount.

829
00:48:39,990 –> 00:48:43,150
So I think it’s trying to just
give them the Hero product,

830
00:48:43,330 –> 00:48:47,190
the one that’s got a good enough cost
per acquisition, a high enough LTV,

831
00:48:47,790 –> 00:48:50,590
and our goal is to just increase
the subscription take rate.

832
00:48:51,190 –> 00:48:55,110
But also then we’ve been working on
the offers, which is, back to my point,

833
00:48:56,510 –> 00:48:58,490
free products, free gifts,

834
00:48:58,770 –> 00:49:01,950
how do we incentivize them without
giving away too much product?

835
00:49:02,570 –> 00:49:04,830
So you give away other products, caps,

836
00:49:05,670 –> 00:49:07,670
bottles to take with the drinks.

837
00:49:07,730 –> 00:49:11,710
You’ve got free shipping on the
subscription offer, loads of other things.

838
00:49:11,770 –> 00:49:12,950
We could talk about this for days,

839
00:49:13,010 –> 00:49:17,970
but I think the key thing in all of
these brands is it’s all about the

840
00:49:18,070 –> 00:49:20,050
value, the time saved,

841
00:49:20,550 –> 00:49:24,950
and do you just give enough sort of
breakdown of the product and what it does

842
00:49:24,990 –> 00:49:28,390
for them? I think if you can nail them
three things and they really leave with

843
00:49:28,450 –> 00:49:29,630
no questions to answer,

844
00:49:30,410 –> 00:49:34,590
you’ve done your job and you’ll probably
have a higher percentage of those

845
00:49:34,630 –> 00:49:38,630
orders. But yeah, that’s probably,
without going into way too much detail,

846
00:49:38,690 –> 00:49:41,270
that’s probably some of the
key things we would look for.

847
00:49:42,190 –> 00:49:44,670
It’s so good, man. It’s so good.
Yeah, you’re trying to balance them.

848
00:49:44,730 –> 00:49:46,160
Am I getting a good enough take rate?

849
00:49:46,780 –> 00:49:50,520
Am I giving people the right
amount of products so that they

850
00:49:51,900 –> 00:49:54,280
consume it, love it, enjoy it?

851
00:49:54,400 –> 00:49:58,180
Don’t ever feel like they’ve got too
much or not enough so that they’re likely

852
00:49:59,090 –> 00:50:01,860
to churn because we want
to increase that take rate.

853
00:50:02,260 –> 00:50:06,800
We want to increase that
stick rate so that our CACTLTV

854
00:50:06,980 –> 00:50:11,360
ratio just improves over
time. Brilliant. I love it.

855
00:50:13,440 –> 00:50:18,140
How important is, for these brands, how
important is your follow-up sequence,

856
00:50:18,200 –> 00:50:20,720
so like abandoned cart
sequence and things like that,

857
00:50:21,060 –> 00:50:25,980
how important is email and SMS and other
follow-up mechanisms to really truly go

858
00:50:26,060 –> 00:50:27,090
full funnel here with CRO?

859
00:50:28,580 –> 00:50:30,780
Yeah, so we would give advice on it.

860
00:50:31,540 –> 00:50:36,300
Usually we pass that off to the email
and SMS partners because we focus on our

861
00:50:36,320 –> 00:50:36,840
main things.

862
00:50:36,840 –> 00:50:41,460
But I think the main thing is
making sure that you’re actually

863
00:50:41,660 –> 00:50:43,360
educating the customer
on what they’re getting.

864
00:50:43,680 –> 00:50:47,740
So I think that’s something that people
that don’t really actually hold onto

865
00:50:47,780 –> 00:50:49,940
enough. So you’ve obviously
got, when they join,

866
00:50:50,160 –> 00:50:52,860
they obviously get a welcome
email on the welcome flow.

867
00:50:53,640 –> 00:50:56,480
We like to make sure that the
founder is writing that the founder.

868
00:50:56,590 –> 00:50:57,900
So it’s a plain text,

869
00:50:57,960 –> 00:51:01,960
finder written email to basically
thank them on joining the subscription,

870
00:51:02,090 –> 00:51:04,220
joining the sort of community.

871
00:51:04,720 –> 00:51:06,380
You want to try and always
drive it towards a community,

872
00:51:06,480 –> 00:51:11,480
but also then educating them on the
why they created the product and why

873
00:51:11,560 –> 00:51:12,393
the brand.

874
00:51:12,860 –> 00:51:17,440
And then I think it’s about actually
educating the consumer on what the product

875
00:51:17,480 –> 00:51:21,080
is going to do for them, why they
should continue to take the product,

876
00:51:21,740 –> 00:51:22,960
asking them for feedback,

877
00:51:23,620 –> 00:51:27,220
making sure that they’re getting hit
with those welcome email flows. I think

878
00:51:27,240 –> 00:51:31,420
that’s one of the biggest
unlocks for any brand,

879
00:51:31,860 –> 00:51:35,560
no matter what they’re doing. You’ve
obviously got then win backflows,

880
00:51:35,900 –> 00:51:36,733
which we all know about,

881
00:51:36,800 –> 00:51:40,520
which is usually the people that
have maybe subscribed in the past

882
00:51:41,700 –> 00:51:43,220
without going into too much detail,

883
00:51:43,840 –> 00:51:46,620
that’s another way in which you can
actually continue to increase your

884
00:51:46,680 –> 00:51:50,880
subscription take rate. Let’s say
if they unsubscribe in month five,

885
00:51:51,120 –> 00:51:55,400
for example, can we hit them back on
month seven, month eight, month nine,

886
00:51:55,860 –> 00:51:57,660
maybe trying to tap into, “Hey,

887
00:51:57,720 –> 00:52:01,920
how have you been feeling without the
product?” Or trying to tap into that side

888
00:52:01,940 –> 00:52:03,460
of things or maybe again,

889
00:52:04,180 –> 00:52:08,960
always a clean plain text email from the
founder works super well for any email

890
00:52:09,000 –> 00:52:11,080
you could be sending. But as well,

891
00:52:11,380 –> 00:52:15,640
I think then you mentioned you’ve got
checkout abandonment, cart abandonment.

892
00:52:16,200 –> 00:52:19,520
I think people actually neglect cart
abandonment usually and just go straight

893
00:52:19,540 –> 00:52:20,373
for checkout.

894
00:52:21,900 –> 00:52:25,380
You’ve got to kind of work all of these
in a way where you’re not just giving

895
00:52:25,420 –> 00:52:28,480
them an extra discount, an extra
discount, an extra discount.

896
00:52:28,980 –> 00:52:30,580
Because some people will game that system.

897
00:52:30,640 –> 00:52:33,700
Some people will know that if I just do
these things and unlock another level of

898
00:52:33,740 –> 00:52:35,080
discount and that’s
what they’re going for.

899
00:52:35,760 –> 00:52:36,260
I mean,

900
00:52:36,260 –> 00:52:39,420
you’re already giving them one with the
subscriptions or maybe a bundle and then

901
00:52:39,460 –> 00:52:43,920
you’re giving them another welcome
flow email discount or another, sorry,

902
00:52:44,060 –> 00:52:47,880
checkout or cart abandonment
email sequence. So again,

903
00:52:48,380 –> 00:52:52,500
I think brands just get so obsessed with
trying to win back customers through

904
00:52:52,960 –> 00:52:53,793
discounts.

905
00:52:53,820 –> 00:52:58,200
And we’ve seen some brands just get
absolutely annihilated that don’t even

906
00:52:58,260 –> 00:53:02,080
understand their numbers and then
they just add on, add on, add on.

907
00:53:02,140 –> 00:53:06,540
And they think that that’s a strategy
when the main part of the strategy is

908
00:53:06,680 –> 00:53:10,240
offering copy and they’ve got to just
jump back from all of the craziness of

909
00:53:10,300 –> 00:53:14,920
discounts to how do we provide
value and describe the value.

910
00:53:15,140 –> 00:53:17,640
So I think brands actually give value,
but they don’t describe it enough.

911
00:53:17,880 –> 00:53:20,180
They don’t actually tell them.

912
00:53:21,000 –> 00:53:23,800
And that’s probably what I would
say about all of that. Again,

913
00:53:24,100 –> 00:53:28,240
not an email and SMS expert, so
just want to have that out there,

914
00:53:28,300 –> 00:53:30,620
but we know the basis of it.
Yeah.

915
00:53:30,840 –> 00:53:32,260
Absolutely. And that all rings true.

916
00:53:32,480 –> 00:53:35,740
We’ve got a retention department and
Nick who runs my email and SMS team,

917
00:53:35,800 –> 00:53:39,040
he would totally agree with what you
just said. And it’s so funny. Yeah,

918
00:53:39,300 –> 00:53:43,840
just a reminder that founder’s story is
so powerful from big mattress brands to

919
00:53:44,060 –> 00:53:45,520
supplement brands, everything in between.

920
00:53:46,100 –> 00:53:49,200
Sometimes the founder’s story
is the best performing ad.

921
00:53:49,740 –> 00:53:52,700
I think telling a little bit of the
founder story plus maybe some customer

922
00:53:52,780 –> 00:53:56,140
stories on the Lander, one of the
best ways to approach a Lander, right?

923
00:53:56,200 –> 00:53:59,680
And then you’re right on the
email follow-up card abandonment,

924
00:53:59,740 –> 00:54:01,000
checkout abandonment, welcome flow.

925
00:54:01,520 –> 00:54:04,580
Tell a little bit more of the founder’s
story. Why did we create this?

926
00:54:04,740 –> 00:54:07,220
Why do you need to consume this?
Why do you need this in your life?

927
00:54:07,820 –> 00:54:10,660
Hitting people from multiple angles or
just telling the same story in slightly

928
00:54:10,700 –> 00:54:15,020
different way makes a huge,
huge difference. And so Patty,

929
00:54:15,540 –> 00:54:17,740
this has been brilliant,
man. Absolutely love this.

930
00:54:17,800 –> 00:54:21,520
If people are consuming this and
they’re like, “Man, I need to go deeper.

931
00:54:22,420 –> 00:54:24,860
I know that I don’t just need to increase
my ad spend or maybe the secret to

932
00:54:24,880 –> 00:54:27,800
increase in my ad spend is working
with somebody like Patty.” How can they

933
00:54:28,180 –> 00:54:31,600
connect with you online? How can
they learn more about your services?

934
00:54:32,660 –> 00:54:37,180
Yeah, so you can visit our website,
pmdigitaldesign.com. I’m also on LinkedIn.

935
00:54:37,580 –> 00:54:42,200
I’m on Twitter. I’m on YouTube. LinkedIn’s
probably the easiest one. But yeah,

936
00:54:42,280 –> 00:54:45,300
listen, just book a call. I will have
a chat with you. It’s always with me.

937
00:54:46,000 –> 00:54:49,860
And again, we will just go through what
you’re doing right now, audit that,

938
00:54:49,940 –> 00:54:54,360
give you some free tips and also just
have a nice conversation if you’re anyone

939
00:54:54,400 –> 00:54:59,140
in the brand founder space
or your CMO or anyone in that

940
00:54:59,160 –> 00:55:03,620
marketing sort of realm. You’ll be
speaking to the founder. As Brett said,

941
00:55:03,680 –> 00:55:04,800
founder story always wins.

942
00:55:04,860 –> 00:55:08,620
So I think that’s a good nice way to
kind of fill it out. This is the founder.

943
00:55:08,660 –> 00:55:12,280
Story right here. The reason why you
should reach out to PM Digital Design.

944
00:55:12,800 –> 00:55:16,920
Patty McLaren, ladies and gentlemen.
Patty, thank you so much, man.

945
00:55:16,980 –> 00:55:21,100
This has been a ton of fun, immense
value. Appreciate it. Exactly, man.

946
00:55:21,160 –> 00:55:22,020
And hey man,

947
00:55:22,100 –> 00:55:25,420
ready to rock the stage again here
hopefully in the not too distant future.

948
00:55:26,440 –> 00:55:27,660
Soon, soon. Thanks for having me.

949
00:55:28,620 –> 00:55:32,360
Awesome, man. Thanks again. And also
thank you for tuning in. As always,

950
00:55:32,420 –> 00:55:35,160
we’d love to hear from you.
If you like this episode,

951
00:55:35,220 –> 00:55:38,600
please share it with somebody who
you think will find it valuable.

952
00:55:39,220 –> 00:55:41,420
And with that, until next
time, thank you for listening.

953
00:55:42,080 –> 00:55:43,840
That’ll do it for this
week’s episode. Hey,

954
00:55:43,900 –> 00:55:48,540
if you’re serious about profitable scale
for your brand, we would love to chat.

955
00:55:48,600 –> 00:55:53,040
Over the last 15 years, we’ll work
with some amazing brands like Native,

956
00:55:53,560 –> 00:55:58,440
BoomBeauty, Arctic, Organify,
Crumble Cookie, True Earth,

957
00:55:58,820 –> 00:56:02,400
and many, many more. We want to
help you unlock new channels,

958
00:56:02,940 –> 00:56:06,480
find profitable scale, have
better creative, better campaign,

959
00:56:06,560 –> 00:56:07,840
better measurement strategies,

960
00:56:08,320 –> 00:56:12,260
and ultimately hope you have more fun and
grow in all of your relevant channels.

961
00:56:12,340 –> 00:56:16,660
So take a look at omgcommerce.com
and we can’t wait to help you

962
00:56:17,080 –> 00:56:18,280
scale profitably.