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The reason I stress so hard
that personality and brand
personalities need to be

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flexible is because we don’t have one why.

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There’s not one reason
why people are buying.

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Well, hello and welcome to another edition
of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast.

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I’m your host, Brett
Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce.

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And today I am absolutely thrilled
to welcome to the show Nate

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Lagos. We are talking all
things better creative,

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better storytelling, better copywriting,
knowing your customers better,

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better branding and positioning. How
does that fit into performance marketing?

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This guy is an absolute legend.

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We met when he was serving his
head of growth at Original Grain,

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saw them through tremendous amounts of
growth. Now he’s a CMO of Adapt Naturals.

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We’re working together and loving it.

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And so he’s also the host of the
Tactical and Practical Marketing Podcast.

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Check it out, one of my favorite
follows on X. So with that,

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Nate Lagos, what’s up, Nate? Welcome
to the show. And how’s it going, man?

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Brett, thanks so much for
having me. Man, it’s going good.

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The year’s off to a busy but hot start.

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I’m excited to get into
what we’ve been working on.

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Totally. And this is for the
supplement and health space.

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This is go time for you.
And I know you guys,

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you really hit the ground
running when you joined Adapt,

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and so excited to see
how that’s progressing.

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Yeah.

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Definitely. So yeah, man,
want to get practical here,

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just like your podcast. But before we do,

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I think it’d be really
interesting to one set the stage.

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So we met when you had a
growth at Original Grain.

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Feel free to talk about any of the
experiences there because that was just

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tremendous growth. But then we
really got to know each other.

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We both spoke at the same event
in New York City, Digital Growth,

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not Digital Growth, D2C Growth Summit.
Shout out to our buddy, Johnny Hickey,

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what’s up? And we both spoke there,
got to know each other a little bit.

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You walked on stage before me and
you were wearing a cowboy hat,

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great look and aviators. This is a choice.

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And you’re like, “Hey guys,

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I’m using notes here and wearing aviators
because I got bucked off a bull and

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I have a concussion.” We’re
like, “What?” First of all,

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that’s the coolest intro ever.

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I’ve thought about just doing that
even though it wouldn’t be true,

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just to see what kind of reactions
I would get. But tell us about that.

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So you write bulls in your spare time
and how did you perform such a good talk

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while concussed? Yeah.

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And do.

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You have a concussion right now?

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No, I’m not concussed now. I can tell you,

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these ribs still hurt from that
injury, but the brain has bounced back.

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We’re good there. No,

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but the reason that all came together
was because I wrote the presentation

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before I went bull riding.
So the notes were good,

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the deck was good. Everything was
locked in. Sunday, I was like,

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let me buck some bulls. First
one bucked me off, stepped on me,

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broke three ribs, but I
was like, “I can do better.

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Let me get one more in quick.”
Landed directly on my head,

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concussed pretty bad.

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So that was Sunday and then hopped on
a plane Tuesday for that conference.

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That’s crazy, man.

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That’s crazy. Yeah. Kudos to you, you
really couldn’t tell. It was great.

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And you broke down storytelling
and what you did at

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Original Grain, which
we got to observe that.

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I know the founders love that
brand. Just tremendous growth there.

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But let’s dive into that a little bit.
Let’s talk about copy and storytelling.

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I want to talk brand.

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I want to talk knowing your
customers and a few other things. But

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how do you approach storytelling
and copywriting in general?

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Because you’re more
gifted than most at that.

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So I’d love to just know,
what is your approach?

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Yeah. Copy was something I
slept on early in my career.

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I became a CMO at 24 of a
company called Dugout Mugs,

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made baseball themed barware. I didn’t
do any copywriting there. I mean,

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sorry, I was writing copy. It was
not thoughtful. None of it was good.

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But we had a super unique
product. We tested offers a bunch,

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saw good growth there.

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But it wasn’t really until
I got to Original Grain
that I felt the need and got

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into storytelling as a performance lever.

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When you look at a watch made out of wood,

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there’s a bunch of different
ways you can sell it.

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When I tried selling it as
a watch made out of wood,

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didn’t go over that well. I can’t- Would.

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You like a watch made out of wood?

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Yeah. I can’t tell someone
like, “Hey, do you know wood?

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Do you know the thing that’s the most
renewable and cheapest resource on earth?”

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Yeah, we put it in a watch and we’re
going to sell it to you for $300.

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Everyone’s like, “Eh, no.”.

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No, thanks.

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But when we start to get into the stories
behind the materials our watches were

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made from, and I started to tell
you that this isn’t just wood.

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This was a tree that was planted
likely in the late 1800s and

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grew for 70 years. And then it
was chopped down, harvested.

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It was turned into a whiskey barrel
where a master distiller filled it and it

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aged the whiskey for another decade.

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And then we got it and cut it and plained
it and sanded it and inlaid it into

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your watch.

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So now you can carry a piece of
American and whiskey history on your

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wrist, then you’re going
to buy that for 300.

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And made me feel like
you’re getting a steal.

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At that 100%. Yeah.

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And that really kind of opened
my eyes to the power of words and

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I have not slowed down on it.

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Copy and message testing was like
the first thing I did at Adapt.

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I still joke with the team internally
that CMO stands for chief messaging

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officer because that’s what I
try to spend the most time on,

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but it’s been crazy powerful.

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The performance gains we’ve had
from it haven’t stopped yet.

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Yeah. I love it, man.

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And I like studying some of the
classics and some of the greats in

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marketing. I just reread
Ogleview & Advertising,

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which is a classic kind
of skimmed through again,

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My Life in Advertising and Scientific
Advertising by Cables, I believe it was.

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And then one of those guys,
I can’t remember which one,

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but talked about advertising for
Schlitz Beer and how they really

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grew market share for that beer company
by talking about the Artisan Wells and

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the way they treated the bottles and
the way they went through the brewing

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process. And turns out it was actually
the way that everybody did it,

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but they just told the story better
for that time. It fit that time.

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I know it might not fit now.

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Now we just need to show sports
or girls or whatever to sell beer.

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But it worked at that time. It
was a brilliantly told story,

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even though anybody could have
told it and it sold a lot of beer.

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And so it’s like taking some of
those classic timeless things.

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Humans have been telling stories forever,

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but channeling that for good marketing. So

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yeah, walk through some of the ways
you approached it from Original Grain.

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Was it just understanding the story?

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Was it understanding the customer first?
Was it a lot of trial and error to see,

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okay, this angle works,
that angle falls flat?

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Probably a little bit of all of that.

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Yeah. It started early on
there. I was not a watch guy.

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I walked into that brand,
never having owned a watch,

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never wanting to get into that world.

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But.

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It sucked me in and it’s
grabbed me now. But early on,

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I was asking simple questions about the
industry like, why do watches exist?

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Why does someone buy a watch today?

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And I quickly found out the answer was
not so they know what time it is. Right.

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Got a phone.

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For that.

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That is reason 99 out of a hundred
why someone could buy a watch.

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But I started to learn
from industry research,

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from some customer surveys that the
men who are buying the watches for

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themselves are buying
it as a status symbol.

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They want to be respected by their tribe.

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And if you’re in a conference like we are,

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status in that room is a Rolex.

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But if you’re a blue collar guy who’s
known as the whiskey guy in his group’s

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status in that group is not a Rolex,

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it’s an original grain watch in
laid with whiskey barrel wood.

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So that was really eye-opening.

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When I buy this product,

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what does it say about me and what does
it say about me to the people I want to

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impress? 100%. With the people
I’m around. Yeah. 100% super.

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Interesting. Yeah.

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And then I quickly found out that over
half our customers were women and we only

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sold men’s watches. And I
was like, “What is going on?

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” And the reason that they were
buying for the men in their lives

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was most commonly it was the wife of

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that blue collar hardworking guy.

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And she very visibly sees all he
does to sacrifice for the family.

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She knows he gets up early,
works late, works hard,

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and has sacrificed a lot
to provide for his family.

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And these women we found didn’t
have a way to reciprocate

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that.

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They didn’t have a way to show
him that they appreciate and value

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and are so grateful for
everything he does for them.

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So our messaging changed
drastically around gift giving

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times where we didn’t
start saying like, “Hey,

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if your husband likes whiskey,

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get him this watch.” These wives don’t
like how much their husband drinks

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already. They’re not trying
to reinforce that behavior.

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But when we changed the
message to say, “Show your.

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Man-” Which does feel like that would be
an angle you should test, right? 100%.

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These are men that love Whiskey
and are your whiskey fan.

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I love it too, although it doesn’t agree
with me, so I almost never drink it,

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but it’s great. So you think, “Oh,

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that’s a good angle.” But actually it
turns out that’s not the reason they buy.

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And so you got to dig deeper,
which is what you found out. Yeah.

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So when we changed the messaging from
like, “Hey, with you guys, love this.

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It’s a great gift for them.” We changed
it to show your man he’s worth every

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second with a gift as rugged
and dependable as he is.

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Conversion rate went crazy, AOV went up.

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And then we were actually able to raise
our prices without seeing a decrease in

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conversion rate because we weren’t
just selling a watch anymore.

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We were selling a token,

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a physical expression of
love and appreciation,

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which people are willing to spend more
money on than a piece of metal in wood.

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00:11:04,787 –> 00:11:06,127
Yeah. It’s so good, man.

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And now you’ve flipped it where
it’s not what is this watch

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worth,

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it’s what is my man worth to me and
how much am I willing to show him?

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00:11:17,447 –> 00:11:20,467
I remember my dad, I got a
motorcycle when I was in high school.

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00:11:20,547 –> 00:11:24,387
He’d ridden when he was younger,
but got a new motorcycle.

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And I happened to be
with him and my stepmom.

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They were buying a helmet and
the salesman was so brilliant.

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The salesman was like,

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00:11:32,567 –> 00:11:35,527
“We got these helmets and these helmets.”
And so you look at it and you’re like,

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“Well, I’m comparing plastic, right?

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00:11:37,207 –> 00:11:39,667
Is this plastic better than that
plastic?” And so he started showing like,

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00:11:39,867 –> 00:11:41,807
“Well, this is like the $700 helmet,

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00:11:41,907 –> 00:11:44,687
this is the $200 helmet.”
And my stepmom was like,

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00:11:45,267 –> 00:11:47,747
“What’s the difference?” And
so he told us and he’s like,

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“I guess it just depends on what
you think your head is worth.”

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00:11:52,407 –> 00:11:53,240
And then he stopped.

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00:11:53,267 –> 00:11:56,048
And what’s hilarious because
money really wasn’t like an issue,

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00:11:56,387 –> 00:11:59,648
but it is until you know. So then they
bought the expensive one. So I was like,

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“Yeah, that’s a good point. My head’s
probably pretty valuable.” So yeah.

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00:12:03,150 –> 00:12:03,983
100%.

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00:12:04,168 –> 00:12:08,868
What are you putting the value on and
what is someone really buying because that

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can shift the whole game.

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00:12:10,008 –> 00:12:10,720
For sure. Yeah.

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00:12:10,720 –> 00:12:15,148
And I’ve seen very little evidence
that customers are price sensitive.

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00:12:15,488 –> 00:12:19,228
I think they’re value sensitive.
Everyone gets that wrong.

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00:12:19,288 –> 00:12:22,648
That’s why everyone just
results into discounting a ton,

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00:12:23,168 –> 00:12:27,428
but we’ve found such big gains that just
being better at communicating the value

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of the product with
written and visual content.

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Yeah. Yeah. What is your take?
Because what’s interesting,

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the reason I wanted to do this
episode, well, a few reasons. One,

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00:12:37,308 –> 00:12:38,988
you’re fascinating to get to talk
to, so I was interested in that.

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But I listened to a ton
of podcasts in our space,

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00:12:42,848 –> 00:12:44,428
listened to all the big ones for D2C.

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00:12:45,248 –> 00:12:49,548
Almost everybody’s talking about
creative volume and creative velocity and

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00:12:49,608 –> 00:12:52,328
creative diversity, all of
which I believe are important.

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00:12:52,768 –> 00:12:56,508
Those function differently for Meta
versus YouTube versus other channels.

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But what I hear less people talking
about is just understanding what are we

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saying and how are we
approaching storytelling and
how are we positioning this

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product?

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00:13:07,288 –> 00:13:12,068
And so how do you think looking at just
good copy and your approach to good

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00:13:12,108 –> 00:13:16,528
copy, how does that impact or how does
that translate into diversity, volume,

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00:13:16,588 –> 00:13:17,328
velocity?

229
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Yeah.

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00:13:18,028 –> 00:13:22,968
I’m not a believer in creative
volume to unlock scale on Meta.

231
00:13:23,568 –> 00:13:25,608
We actually just ran a
test the last few weeks.

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00:13:26,088 –> 00:13:28,669
We cut the amount of creative
we launched on Meta in half.

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In that time we were able to increase
spend by 25% while improving our aimer.

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00:13:33,989 –> 00:13:38,789
So I find more success being
more accurate and aiming for

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quality over everything.

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00:13:41,349 –> 00:13:44,209
I don’t really believe in
the concept of ad fatigue.

237
00:13:45,069 –> 00:13:49,629
Coke has been running the
polar bears for 40 years.

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00:13:49,849 –> 00:13:52,869
Kit Kat has that song stuck
in my head since I was eight.

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00:13:53,689 –> 00:13:55,709
I think great ads resonate with people.

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00:13:55,769 –> 00:13:58,809
Geico’s always been saving us 15%
or more on car insurance. Always.

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00:13:59,169 –> 00:14:02,669
When you have messages and
symbols and content that work,

242
00:14:02,929 –> 00:14:07,889
I think the way to build a
profitable advertising program and a

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00:14:08,409 –> 00:14:12,909
brand that people like and remember
and gravitate towards takes

244
00:14:12,969 –> 00:14:13,802
repetition.

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00:14:14,049 –> 00:14:18,389
So I like to hone in on
messages that can do both,

246
00:14:18,909 –> 00:14:20,969
that can increase sales today,

247
00:14:21,549 –> 00:14:26,309
but also start to build positive
affinity between how people see you

248
00:14:26,509 –> 00:14:29,989
and the experience they have
once they get your products.

249
00:14:30,529 –> 00:14:33,809
So with that said, I don’t want
to launch a hundred ads this week.

250
00:14:34,529 –> 00:14:39,169
I want to launch seven that do a really
good job at communicating our value,

251
00:14:39,229 –> 00:14:43,469
that do a really good job of hitting the
right customers when they are ready to

252
00:14:43,549 –> 00:14:48,449
buy and running different versions of
that over and over and over throughout

253
00:14:48,829 –> 00:14:51,089
the year. And in doing that,

254
00:14:51,149 –> 00:14:55,190
I’ve seen multiple individual ads that
can spend seven figures a year without

255
00:14:55,229 –> 00:14:56,150
ever fatiguing.

256
00:14:56,949 –> 00:15:01,770
And I’ve seen us be able to build
efficient in- house creative

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00:15:01,810 –> 00:15:04,310
teams where the goal is
not a hundred ads a week.

258
00:15:04,410 –> 00:15:08,670
The goal is how many great ads can we
make? If we can make 12 great ones,

259
00:15:09,050 –> 00:15:12,690
awesome. If we can make 30, cool.
But if we can only make four,

260
00:15:13,330 –> 00:15:17,890
I’d rather four excellent ads that speak
to the right people at the right moment

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00:15:17,970 –> 00:15:21,990
in their lives in order
to get them to buy.

262
00:15:23,210 –> 00:15:23,670
Yeah.

263
00:15:23,670 –> 00:15:28,570
And I think creative
velocity and diversity means
different things to different

264
00:15:28,590 –> 00:15:30,670
brands at different
levels of scale, right?

265
00:15:30,730 –> 00:15:34,950
But I think there’s also
some element of … I love

266
00:15:38,530 –> 00:15:39,590
the Oracle of Omaha,

267
00:15:41,170 –> 00:15:45,730
his quote that diversity is only important
if you don’t know what you’re doing,

268
00:15:45,950 –> 00:15:50,470
right? Which it doesn’t fully
translate here, but it sort of does.

269
00:15:50,850 –> 00:15:55,530
Maybe the reason you need
so much philosophy or so
much volume is because a lot

270
00:15:55,550 –> 00:15:57,350
of what you’re putting out there sucks.

271
00:15:57,410 –> 00:16:02,230
Get better and then you can probably
cut that volume down and find

272
00:16:02,430 –> 00:16:07,070
some real wins. And I think that
begins with good storytelling. And so

273
00:16:08,910 –> 00:16:09,743
that’s phenomenal.

274
00:16:09,890 –> 00:16:14,750
So can you talk a little bit about how
do you understand what a customer is

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00:16:14,810 –> 00:16:18,010
actually buying or what they want and
would love to hear how you’re maybe doing

276
00:16:18,030 –> 00:16:22,150
that at Adapt Naturals.
Is that survey based?

277
00:16:22,210 –> 00:16:25,931
Is that just we’re testing ads and
angles and seeing what the results are?

278
00:16:26,430 –> 00:16:30,051
How are you honing in on this is
what someone is actually buying?

279
00:16:30,771 –> 00:16:34,211
Little bit of everything, little
bit of surveys and research,

280
00:16:34,551 –> 00:16:38,631
little bit of testing new messages
and seeing how they respond.

281
00:16:39,071 –> 00:16:43,551
The most impactful thing I’ve
done is hire Sarah Levener,

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00:16:43,671 –> 00:16:47,871
who’s a customer research, I
don’t know, researcher, analyst,

283
00:16:48,631 –> 00:16:53,391
but she’s awesome. And she really
opened my eyes a couple years ago

284
00:16:55,271 –> 00:16:58,691
to understand the real reasons why
people were buying. And to be honest,

285
00:16:58,751 –> 00:17:01,731
it made me uncomfortable
because it exposed some stuff
in my purchasing behavior

286
00:17:01,811 –> 00:17:02,871
that I didn’t really want to know.

287
00:17:04,551 –> 00:17:08,911
I got Chick-fil-A delivered to the house
today because I’m stressed and needed a

288
00:17:08,971 –> 00:17:11,031
little quick, convenient comfort.

289
00:17:11,431 –> 00:17:14,171
It’s comfort food, dude.
Chick-fil-A, it’s comfort food,

290
00:17:14,231 –> 00:17:16,931
but you can still function afterwards.
I eat a Chick-fil-A sandwich.

291
00:17:17,511 –> 00:17:19,911
It’s not health food, but
I still feel okay enough.

292
00:17:20,451 –> 00:17:22,491
Yeah. It’s better than Taco
Bell, which is what I really.

293
00:17:22,531 –> 00:17:23,671
Want. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

294
00:17:24,691 –> 00:17:28,691
My last cowboy hat I bought because I was

295
00:17:29,311 –> 00:17:32,351
insecure and felt like I deserved
something that I hadn’t gotten.

296
00:17:32,531 –> 00:17:33,364
You.

297
00:17:33,951 –> 00:17:38,911
And that sucks when you look
at that for yourself and

298
00:17:38,931 –> 00:17:40,911
you can stop yourself from
making some bad purchases.

299
00:17:40,971 –> 00:17:42,771
You want to be like, “No,
that’s why other people buy.

300
00:17:43,031 –> 00:17:43,864
I buy just.

301
00:17:43,931 –> 00:17:44,764
Value.”.

302
00:17:45,231 –> 00:17:45,631
Yeah.

303
00:17:45,631 –> 00:17:50,131
I bought a new watch as soon as I left
OG because I’m insecure and wanted to

304
00:17:50,191 –> 00:17:51,024
feel better.

305
00:17:52,312 –> 00:17:57,232
But uncovering the real reasons
why people were purchasing allow us

306
00:17:57,272 –> 00:18:00,272
to create ads that speak
to what they really feel,

307
00:18:00,812 –> 00:18:02,012
not just what they say they want.

308
00:18:03,092 –> 00:18:03,925
Because.

309
00:18:04,272 –> 00:18:07,512
When we ask customers directly,

310
00:18:08,672 –> 00:18:13,112
they will tell you the reason they
bought after they’ve justified it and

311
00:18:13,172 –> 00:18:14,612
rationalized it to themselves.

312
00:18:15,532 –> 00:18:18,792
No one walks into the
Rolex store and says, “Hey,

313
00:18:19,432 –> 00:18:21,092
I’m deeply insecure.

314
00:18:21,952 –> 00:18:26,512
I would like the people in my circle to
know that I am financially successful.

315
00:18:26,572 –> 00:18:28,432
Do you have anything for me?

316
00:18:28,800 –> 00:18:33,092
” Yeah, I’ve got a significance issue.
I want other people to respect me.

317
00:18:33,772 –> 00:18:35,012
That’s why I’m buying this. Yeah. Yeah.

318
00:18:35,512 –> 00:18:40,072
So that’s why you have
to do a mix of surveying.

319
00:18:40,352 –> 00:18:42,372
We scrape Reddit for insights.

320
00:18:43,032 –> 00:18:47,672
We run all of our customer reviews
through a series of prompts to figure out

321
00:18:47,712 –> 00:18:50,812
what they’re actually feeling,
not just what they’re saying.

322
00:18:52,092 –> 00:18:56,752
And then the last part of it that I think
everyone misses is when you’re testing

323
00:18:56,772 –> 00:19:00,292
copy and messaging, that’s
a two-way conversation.

324
00:19:00,352 –> 00:19:04,412
The customers just don’t talk back.
They either buy things or they

325
00:19:06,232 –> 00:19:11,212
don’t. And one of the big
examples for this is at

326
00:19:11,312 –> 00:19:15,212
Original Grain, we started to talk about
guys who were building their legacy,

327
00:19:15,372 –> 00:19:17,092
guys who were carving their own path.

328
00:19:18,512 –> 00:19:21,533
No one in their right mind would
open up a conversation with, “Hey,

329
00:19:21,592 –> 00:19:24,693
I’m Nate and I really
care about my legacy.” Or,

330
00:19:24,793 –> 00:19:28,513
“I bought this wash because I care about
my legacy.” No one’s talking like that.

331
00:19:29,053 –> 00:19:33,213
But when we put out messaging that spoke
to that and we saw conversion rate of

332
00:19:33,293 –> 00:19:36,813
our mail buyers go crazy, we
thought, oh, they care about that.

333
00:19:37,413 –> 00:19:39,873
They might not know it,
they might not admit it,

334
00:19:40,313 –> 00:19:44,213
but talking about that is going
to make them purchase more.

335
00:19:45,033 –> 00:19:46,933
Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good, man.

336
00:19:47,393 –> 00:19:52,013
I worked with a pretty large jewelry
store for a long time early on in my

337
00:19:52,053 –> 00:19:55,993
career, did all their marketing for
over a decade. And when I first started,

338
00:19:56,293 –> 00:19:57,213
I wasn’t a fan of jewelry.

339
00:19:57,513 –> 00:19:59,453
I just thought it was a waste
of money and kind of silly.

340
00:19:59,553 –> 00:20:03,373
So I’m surprised I got
the gig. But as I got in,

341
00:20:03,693 –> 00:20:07,293
I started understanding one,
when people wear jewelry,

342
00:20:07,773 –> 00:20:12,433
they feel better about themselves. And
so my wife, when she wears jewelry,

343
00:20:12,493 –> 00:20:14,193
I’m sure she feels better
about herself. Also,

344
00:20:14,413 –> 00:20:16,473
I started to understand
that for me as a guy,

345
00:20:17,133 –> 00:20:20,280
I feel better about myself when
I buy my wife nice jewelry. 100%.

346
00:20:20,520 –> 00:20:24,213
I want people to not only
see how beautiful she is,

347
00:20:24,273 –> 00:20:28,553
but maybe to know that I’m successful. I
started to understand, maybe that’s why

348
00:20:29,053 –> 00:20:31,053
I’m motivated to buy this
is super interesting.

349
00:20:31,553 –> 00:20:33,573
But then also you start to
look at some of the reasons,

350
00:20:33,633 –> 00:20:35,473
and I heard some of these
people talk about it like, “Hey,

351
00:20:35,673 –> 00:20:40,533
I’m buying this for my daughter
because she’ll get to keep it and

352
00:20:40,593 –> 00:20:44,313
pass it down to future generations.”
So I think that’s true,

353
00:20:44,533 –> 00:20:47,653
that’s the logical piece, but then
it’s also probably that, yeah,

354
00:20:47,753 –> 00:20:52,493
but I want to look successful too in
the process. So really interesting.

355
00:20:52,633 –> 00:20:55,173
And then I like you, really
the why I became a jewelry fan,

356
00:20:55,254 –> 00:20:57,873
so I buy jewelry pretty frequently buy
for my daughters and stuff like that too.

357
00:20:57,894 –> 00:20:58,727
As well.

358
00:20:59,354 –> 00:21:04,074
I bought a nice car
when I was 26 and I told

359
00:21:04,114 –> 00:21:07,274
myself beforehand, I was like, “Hey,
I’m not going to post this on Instagram.

360
00:21:07,574 –> 00:21:10,114
I’m not going to put it on
Twitter.This is not a flex.

361
00:21:10,194 –> 00:21:11,954
I’m buying it because I want it.

362
00:21:12,200 –> 00:21:16,474
” But that doesn’t stop me from feeling
good about myself when I go meet people

363
00:21:16,534 –> 00:21:17,794
in town and I step out of.

364
00:21:17,834 –> 00:21:18,594
That. Totally. And it’s.

365
00:21:18,594 –> 00:21:20,174
Like, all right, it’s
still kind of a flex.

366
00:21:20,314 –> 00:21:24,274
I was trying not to be a huge D-bag
about it, but a little bit still.

367
00:21:25,960 –> 00:21:26,000
And.

368
00:21:26,000 –> 00:21:27,934
Then I brought it up on a podcast, so I.

369
00:21:28,314 –> 00:21:33,274
Just … So funny. But yeah,
then you start to understand,

370
00:21:33,334 –> 00:21:36,154
okay, so this is maybe
what’s at the root of it.

371
00:21:37,134 –> 00:21:41,174
This is maybe the reason that people
are willing to talk about why they buy.

372
00:21:41,734 –> 00:21:42,914
So let me appeal to both.

373
00:21:43,434 –> 00:21:46,894
Let me appeal to all of that and then
my ads and from different angles and

374
00:21:46,914 –> 00:21:50,374
things like that. And so awesome.

375
00:21:50,514 –> 00:21:55,134
Let’s talk a little bit about
brand. And I’m a huge believer.

376
00:21:55,294 –> 00:22:00,254
You said this earlier where you
like to run ads that get results

377
00:22:00,354 –> 00:22:03,834
now, but they also build someone’s brand.
I’ve always been a huge fan of that.

378
00:22:03,914 –> 00:22:08,134
Some people call it brand formants
where it’s like I’m telling stories,

379
00:22:08,634 –> 00:22:11,194
I’m moving people to take action.

380
00:22:12,054 –> 00:22:15,914
I’m getting a direct response.
I’m likely a decent ROI now,

381
00:22:15,974 –> 00:22:20,454
but I’m also building a brand into
the future. How do you view brand?

382
00:22:20,534 –> 00:22:23,835
Because I heard one of your podcasts
recently where you talk about, “Hey,

383
00:22:23,895 –> 00:22:27,695
this is maybe a way to think
about brand.” So talk about that.

384
00:22:27,754 –> 00:22:29,275
Talk about that maybe
from a performance lens,

385
00:22:29,955 –> 00:22:33,215
but what’s your reframe of branding? Hey,

386
00:22:33,275 –> 00:22:35,235
thanks again for tuning in to
the eCommerce Evolution Podcast.

387
00:22:35,295 –> 00:22:38,115
I want to take just a minute and
talk about my agency, OMG commerce.

388
00:22:38,775 –> 00:22:42,515
We’ve been helping e-commerce
brands for 15 years,

389
00:22:42,855 –> 00:22:44,955
and that’s like a
hundred e-commerce years.

390
00:22:45,435 –> 00:22:50,135
And our specialty is finding opportunities
for growth that other people miss and

391
00:22:50,235 –> 00:22:55,075
unliking channels that you’re not
currently maximizing. For example,

392
00:22:55,395 –> 00:22:58,155
YouTube, most brands
are sleeping on YouTube,

393
00:22:58,855 –> 00:23:02,315
and my belief is it’s the biggest
untapped opportunity for your brand.

394
00:23:02,815 –> 00:23:07,595
We’re also good at adding up to eight
figures in growth for Amazon brands.

395
00:23:07,715 –> 00:23:12,115
And so if you’re looking for
scale and growth profitably,

396
00:23:12,915 –> 00:23:15,335
that’s what we do. We’d
love to chat with you.

397
00:23:15,435 –> 00:23:17,355
We’d love to review your
current marketing efforts,

398
00:23:17,615 –> 00:23:22,375
show you where there’s missed
opportunities and craft a specific plan

399
00:23:22,955 –> 00:23:27,015
for you. So visit us at omgcommerce.com,
click the Let’s Talk button,

400
00:23:27,575 –> 00:23:32,135
and we’d love to schedule a complimentary
strategic review with you. With that,

401
00:23:32,355 –> 00:23:33,155
back to the show.

402
00:23:33,155 –> 00:23:38,155
Yeah. I think the word brand throws
our performance marketer brains into a

403
00:23:38,375 –> 00:23:40,435
tizzy that we cannot escape from.

404
00:23:40,895 –> 00:23:41,935
You want me to waste money? Why.

405
00:23:42,095 –> 00:23:44,035
Do you want me to everything?
One jumps like, “Okay,

406
00:23:44,095 –> 00:23:46,215
so I should just go blow some
money?” And it’s like, no.

407
00:23:46,275 –> 00:23:47,235
No. I got Coca-Cola.

408
00:23:47,975 –> 00:23:48,808
Yeah.

409
00:23:49,455 –> 00:23:54,175
I try to reframe it to everyone on my
team that we are not building a brand,

410
00:23:54,335 –> 00:23:58,676
we’re like showing our personality.
And once you make it your personality,

411
00:23:58,756 –> 00:24:03,036
I think it’s a lot easier
to draw connections between
who our customers are and

412
00:24:03,096 –> 00:24:04,976
who we should be. Yeah.

413
00:24:05,256 –> 00:24:09,936
I also like the word personality
because we all know our

414
00:24:09,956 –> 00:24:11,436
personalities can be flexible.

415
00:24:12,736 –> 00:24:15,696
This is how I show up to an
e-commerce marketing podcast,

416
00:24:16,456 –> 00:24:19,756
but on Friday night when I
have some guys over for a fire,

417
00:24:19,816 –> 00:24:22,756
I’m going to talk much
differently than I’m talking now.

418
00:24:22,996 –> 00:24:26,556
I’m not going to talk about
what copy tests I ran that.

419
00:24:27,716 –> 00:24:31,596
And the next day when I’m at lunch
with my in- laws, who I am there,

420
00:24:31,716 –> 00:24:35,116
it’s just a little bit different
version of me than who I am at work.

421
00:24:36,076 –> 00:24:38,156
I’m not being fake, I’m
not being artificial,

422
00:24:38,236 –> 00:24:42,816
but personality allows you to show up
in the right context in the right way.

423
00:24:43,256 –> 00:24:47,596
And that’s what I think brands need to
be able to do in 2026 and beyond is show

424
00:24:47,756 –> 00:24:52,316
up in a way that our customers
care about and respect and like

425
00:24:52,696 –> 00:24:53,636
in the right context,

426
00:24:53,716 –> 00:24:58,596
because the way that you behave on TikTok
and on YouTube and on Instagram should

427
00:24:58,636 –> 00:25:01,936
be different than the way your products
arrive and should be different than how

428
00:25:01,956 –> 00:25:03,996
your customer service team operates.

429
00:25:04,176 –> 00:25:08,736
So I like personality because
you can start to ask yourself

430
00:25:09,616 –> 00:25:12,996
questions like, “Hey, if our brand had
Friday night plans, what would they be?

431
00:25:13,880 –> 00:25:17,836
” Would it be out drinking,
dancing, partying?

432
00:25:18,016 –> 00:25:20,057
Would it be at home with the family?

433
00:25:20,736 –> 00:25:24,016
Is it getting a headstart
on chores for the weekend?

434
00:25:24,936 –> 00:25:29,777
And then how different is Friday from
Saturday and how do they feel on Monday

435
00:25:29,857 –> 00:25:30,690
mornings?

436
00:25:31,477 –> 00:25:36,097
That’s what I think you need to do
to build a fully flushed out brand

437
00:25:36,177 –> 00:25:41,077
playbook is understand how your brand
is going to show up in different ways to

438
00:25:41,177 –> 00:25:42,997
different people, but at the right time.

439
00:25:44,097 –> 00:25:45,097
Dude, it’s so good.

440
00:25:45,157 –> 00:25:48,877
And I think the other thing we think
about when we think about branding is

441
00:25:49,377 –> 00:25:51,617
colors and fonts and logos.

442
00:25:51,697 –> 00:25:55,957
And certainly those are important and
there’s all kinds of psychological stuff

443
00:25:55,977 –> 00:25:59,477
that goes into that, but I love
the personality angle. Yeah,

444
00:26:00,637 –> 00:26:03,177
what does my brand do on
a Friday night for fun?

445
00:26:03,257 –> 00:26:05,557
What about on a Saturday
morning or Monday?

446
00:26:05,637 –> 00:26:08,597
And then so I like that reframe for sure.

447
00:26:09,377 –> 00:26:12,977
How then have you seen …
So when you view it that way,

448
00:26:13,777 –> 00:26:16,197
how does that shift the
way you approach copy?

449
00:26:16,257 –> 00:26:19,997
How have you seen that shift
the way your team writes copy?

450
00:26:20,537 –> 00:26:22,377
What’s the practical impact of that?

451
00:26:22,917 –> 00:26:26,877
First, we find out all those answers
from our customers. We ask them,

452
00:26:27,357 –> 00:26:31,617
“What are you doing on a Friday? What
kind of music are you listening to?

453
00:26:31,717 –> 00:26:35,317
What kind of sports are you watching?”
Once we start to get those answers,

454
00:26:35,477 –> 00:26:40,257
we start to see and it becomes clear
where we need to show up. At OG,

455
00:26:40,777 –> 00:26:45,377
all of our fans were NFL and country
music fans. So we were like, immediately,

456
00:26:45,437 –> 00:26:48,297
let’s go get some country
artists to partner with us.

457
00:26:48,717 –> 00:26:51,217
We worked with some NFL
teams, but that was hard.

458
00:26:52,857 –> 00:26:56,518
But we immediately knew like, okay,
those are the places we need to show up.

459
00:26:57,778 –> 00:26:59,138
Then once you know what the places are,

460
00:26:59,298 –> 00:27:03,918
you start to understand how you need
to appear, how you need to talk, dress,

461
00:27:04,218 –> 00:27:05,051
act.

462
00:27:05,758 –> 00:27:09,478
So that’s what starts
our copy and messaging,

463
00:27:10,678 –> 00:27:12,578
kind of brainstorming from
there. It’s like, all right,

464
00:27:12,638 –> 00:27:15,398
if our brand is going to
show up to a country concert,

465
00:27:16,278 –> 00:27:18,118
are we going to be the
guy front row screaming?

466
00:27:18,758 –> 00:27:22,058
Are we going to be at the back at
the bar buying our friends shots?

467
00:27:22,678 –> 00:27:25,998
Who are we there? Who do our
customers want us to be there?

468
00:27:26,058 –> 00:27:30,798
How can we show up as our customers
essentially like best wing man at the

469
00:27:30,858 –> 00:27:32,558
events that they want to be at?

470
00:27:33,638 –> 00:27:38,138
So that’s where it all starts and we
try to view everything from that lens.

471
00:27:39,118 –> 00:27:43,838
Would our customers invite us as one
of their best friends out to enjoy

472
00:27:44,118 –> 00:27:45,318
their favorite activities with them?

473
00:27:46,138 –> 00:27:50,298
Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good. And then
over time you’re going to see, okay,

474
00:27:50,358 –> 00:27:55,298
how does that flavor or
shift our copy and our emails

475
00:27:55,498 –> 00:27:59,678
from our automated flows to our monthly
promotions or weekly promotions?

476
00:27:59,738 –> 00:28:02,538
How does that impact the Meta
ads or the YouTube scripts?

477
00:28:02,698 –> 00:28:05,778
It can start to influence all
of those and you’re 100% right.

478
00:28:06,058 –> 00:28:08,438
There’s a different way to
approach each of those channels,

479
00:28:09,738 –> 00:28:14,038
but that personality can be the anchor
or the core of what you’re doing and then

480
00:28:14,058 –> 00:28:18,338
you’re just applying it in the different
space there, which I think is awesome.

481
00:28:18,678 –> 00:28:23,218
One example I want to pull up that I
hope will bring this into kind of like

482
00:28:23,258 –> 00:28:24,978
concrete terms for everyone.

483
00:28:25,339 –> 00:28:30,039
We did an event with OG
where we gave away a bunch of

484
00:28:30,119 –> 00:28:34,799
guitars to veterans and we put them
through a music therapy program

485
00:28:35,719 –> 00:28:37,579
to cope with PTSD and everything. Yeah,

486
00:28:37,639 –> 00:28:41,079
the guys at OG do awesome charitable work.

487
00:28:42,179 –> 00:28:45,679
But we threw this event just
outside of Nashville and it was fun.

488
00:28:45,859 –> 00:28:50,199
It was a party, it was happy, it got
emotional for a minute, but overall fun,

489
00:28:50,339 –> 00:28:51,199
happy event.

490
00:28:51,999 –> 00:28:56,999
We invited our Tennessee customers
to come out and we had a hundred

491
00:28:57,039 –> 00:29:00,919
or so of them show up and having a night
where I could just kind of talk and

492
00:29:01,039 –> 00:29:03,239
hang with customers was so eye-opening.

493
00:29:03,299 –> 00:29:08,019
And the example that really stands out
to me is there’s a customer of ours

494
00:29:08,679 –> 00:29:13,059
who showed up to this event on a Friday
night in ripped jeans and dusty boots.

495
00:29:14,379 –> 00:29:17,759
And I was like, “Man, that says
way more about who our customer is.

496
00:29:18,120 –> 00:29:21,659
” And it would never show up
on a post-purchase survey.

497
00:29:21,859 –> 00:29:24,039
It would never show up in a review,

498
00:29:24,679 –> 00:29:27,979
but just understanding that it’s
going to change our tone a little bit.

499
00:29:28,379 –> 00:29:32,639
We’re going to say y’all when we talk
instead of saying you all or you guys.

500
00:29:33,799 –> 00:29:35,319
It can change subtle things,

501
00:29:35,379 –> 00:29:39,079
but those subtle things I think are
what makes the difference between a

502
00:29:39,759 –> 00:29:44,699
corporate boring brand and a brand
that resonates with the people they’re

503
00:29:44,719 –> 00:29:45,552
trying to hit.

504
00:29:46,059 –> 00:29:48,339
Yeah, it’s so good,
man. I love this quote.

505
00:29:48,399 –> 00:29:52,880
I think this was founder of
Airbnb talked about to scale,

506
00:29:53,519 –> 00:29:56,080
sometimes you have to do things
that don’t, right? Which getting in

507
00:29:57,559 –> 00:30:00,120
Front of your customers, you can’t
necessarily do that at scale Hell,

508
00:30:00,320 –> 00:30:02,220
you certainly can’t see all of
your customers face to face,

509
00:30:02,560 –> 00:30:06,140
but I do however think you could
duplicate those events and you could do

510
00:30:06,420 –> 00:30:09,260
multiple of those events per year.
I think it’d be extremely valuable.

511
00:30:10,100 –> 00:30:12,660
I’m sure if you were to go back and
look at those people that attended,

512
00:30:13,100 –> 00:30:15,860
they’ve probably purchased
more than your average cohort.

513
00:30:15,940 –> 00:30:18,260
They probably referred more
than your average cohort.

514
00:30:18,320 –> 00:30:22,520
That was probably a time well spent.
But then on top of that, yeah,

515
00:30:22,600 –> 00:30:27,480
there’s something about seeing a
room of your customers that will

516
00:30:27,500 –> 00:30:31,460
completely change your perspective.
And it’s way easier to think about,

517
00:30:31,980 –> 00:30:36,980
I’m writing this ad for dude in the
dusty boots versus I’m writing this ad

518
00:30:37,020 –> 00:30:41,600
for a male who’s 25 to 54 and lives
in the South.That’s not even all that

519
00:30:41,620 –> 00:30:45,620
helpful. I want to write for a person
and now I’ve got this person in my head.

520
00:30:45,760 –> 00:30:49,960
Yeah. And I think this little
extra thing here for you,

521
00:30:50,480 –> 00:30:54,641
I think in real life events
are necessary to build great

522
00:30:55,221 –> 00:30:57,841
brands from now on. I
think in the age of AI,

523
00:30:58,381 –> 00:31:02,921
people are going to be craving
connection and authenticity and something

524
00:31:03,201 –> 00:31:05,201
tangible and real more than anything.

525
00:31:05,521 –> 00:31:10,241
I think events are such a great
way to do that. And you’re right.

526
00:31:10,501 –> 00:31:14,061
I think those events are going to increase
the LTV of any customer that shows

527
00:31:14,121 –> 00:31:15,901
up. So we’ll probably at
least break even on it.

528
00:31:16,461 –> 00:31:16,601
Yes.

529
00:31:16,601 –> 00:31:21,601
But at the very least, you’ll get to know
your customers on such a deeper level.

530
00:31:22,521 –> 00:31:24,201
So I’m really excited for that.

531
00:31:24,261 –> 00:31:26,861
We’ve got some stuff planned at Adapt
that I think is going to be great.

532
00:31:28,101 –> 00:31:32,941
But I think when in doubt, if
you’re ever having writer’s block,

533
00:31:33,101 –> 00:31:36,641
creators block for what
to say to your customers,

534
00:31:37,061 –> 00:31:41,041
try to get in a room with them. And I
promise the ideas will start flowing.

535
00:31:41,621 –> 00:31:44,681
That’s awesome, man. And then I
think then you leverage the event,

536
00:31:44,741 –> 00:31:46,101
and I think that’s what
you guys are doing as well,

537
00:31:46,201 –> 00:31:50,182
where you invite out some VIPs,
you could shoot some interviews,

538
00:31:50,422 –> 00:31:54,422
you could get some content footage and
pictures of this and leverage that.

539
00:31:54,502 –> 00:31:57,522
But that’s one of the things I used to
do actually formerly when I was doing

540
00:31:57,542 –> 00:31:58,280
some TV stuff,

541
00:31:58,280 –> 00:32:02,722
this was like early days of OMG and before
we would do customer interviews and I

542
00:32:02,762 –> 00:32:04,922
got to where I was like a
pro at interviewing people.

543
00:32:05,082 –> 00:32:09,662
And there’s something magical
that happens when you’re asking a

544
00:32:09,762 –> 00:32:11,962
customer the right questions
and they’re on camera,

545
00:32:12,022 –> 00:32:14,482
but you get them to not think about
the fact they’re on camera for a little

546
00:32:14,502 –> 00:32:16,802
while. They’ll say some amazing things.

547
00:32:16,882 –> 00:32:20,642
And then you chop those
clips up and now you’ve got

548
00:32:22,082 –> 00:32:26,802
pieces of marketing gold that you can
use in your Meta and YouTube and TikTok

549
00:32:26,842 –> 00:32:31,682
and Instagram ads for a long time.
100%. Yeah. Do in- person events.

550
00:32:31,742 –> 00:32:34,542
If you take nothing else away
from this podcast, do it.

551
00:32:34,682 –> 00:32:39,122
I think it’ll pay off in spades. Awesome.

552
00:32:40,983 –> 00:32:44,343
What are some of the, because
I know you do a lot of testing,

553
00:32:44,560 –> 00:32:47,443
a lot of this angle versus that angle.

554
00:32:48,143 –> 00:32:53,123
Can you think of some
tests that surprise you?

555
00:32:53,363 –> 00:32:57,203
So this one, and I did not see it coming,

556
00:32:57,583 –> 00:33:01,263
or this was a surprise outlier of an ad.

557
00:33:02,083 –> 00:33:03,463
And any examples come to mind?

558
00:33:04,383 –> 00:33:08,843
Yeah, dozens. I’m right
more often than I’m wrong,

559
00:33:09,443 –> 00:33:12,523
but it’s not as often as I’d like.

560
00:33:16,143 –> 00:33:20,223
I think the biggest examples that
I’m ready to share, at least,

561
00:33:20,403 –> 00:33:24,983
are sometimes just flipping the
perspective of a headline from

562
00:33:25,063 –> 00:33:29,383
positive to negative or negative
to positive can be such a huge

563
00:33:29,683 –> 00:33:34,203
difference. If you’re not familiar
with valence and intensity zones,

564
00:33:34,783 –> 00:33:39,224
ask ChatGPT what they are. It’ll give
you a good little summary of them,

565
00:33:39,584 –> 00:33:44,404
but it’s essentially a way
to assign a description

566
00:33:44,544 –> 00:33:48,864
to a piece of content that’s either
going to be like positive and low energy,

567
00:33:49,064 –> 00:33:52,104
positive and high energy,
negative and low energy,

568
00:33:52,544 –> 00:33:54,284
or negative and high energy.

569
00:33:54,904 –> 00:33:58,664
What I have found is there’s not a
copywriter in the world that’s good at

570
00:33:58,724 –> 00:34:00,584
writing in all four of those tones.

571
00:34:02,244 –> 00:34:06,764
I am largely positive and hover

572
00:34:06,864 –> 00:34:11,364
between low and high energy, but if you
ask me to write something negatively,

573
00:34:11,444 –> 00:34:13,584
it gets way too depressing
way too quickly.

574
00:34:14,404 –> 00:34:16,744
I don’t know what that says
about me, but it gets dark.

575
00:34:17,064 –> 00:34:18,644
Quick. It’s dark fast.

576
00:34:19,284 –> 00:34:22,244
So I’ve always just kind of
stuck to positive writing,

577
00:34:22,624 –> 00:34:26,654
but it’s helped a ton to feed some of
our best winning headlines into …

578
00:34:26,864 –> 00:34:30,525
I’m using Claude for
everything now. And say, “Hey,

579
00:34:30,725 –> 00:34:35,285
figure out what valence and
intensity zone this copy

580
00:34:35,545 –> 00:34:36,378
falls into,

581
00:34:36,585 –> 00:34:41,405
then rewrite options in every other
zone.” And it spit out some stuff that

582
00:34:41,805 –> 00:34:42,185
I-.

583
00:34:42,185 –> 00:34:43,085
What a great approach.

584
00:34:43,360 –> 00:34:44,985
… that I would never
have thought to write.

585
00:34:46,365 –> 00:34:51,185
And so that’s been really
eye-opening to see how powerful that

586
00:34:51,285 –> 00:34:55,165
can be because I’ve been wrong about if
something should be phrased positively

587
00:34:55,265 –> 00:34:56,205
or negatively.

588
00:34:57,145 –> 00:35:00,585
So that’s been one that has surprised
me time and time again where I’ll take a

589
00:35:00,665 –> 00:35:05,245
winning headline that I tried to
beat on my own three times and failed

590
00:35:05,885 –> 00:35:08,365
and I put it through
that series of prompts.

591
00:35:08,425 –> 00:35:13,265
It comes out with something new that
crushes it. That has surprised me a bunch.

592
00:35:14,025 –> 00:35:16,285
So just something I’ll riff
on that really quickly.

593
00:35:16,845 –> 00:35:20,425
I think it’s so important because
I definitely lean positive as well.

594
00:35:20,585 –> 00:35:24,266
I’m an optimist to a fault
sometimes, very optimistic.

595
00:35:24,806 –> 00:35:27,846
I also am a morning person. I can
do well late at night as well,

596
00:35:27,906 –> 00:35:28,866
but I’ve just got a lot of energy,

597
00:35:29,186 –> 00:35:34,146
but I’ll wake up just ready to go and
my wife does not and my kids mostly do

598
00:35:34,226 –> 00:35:38,886
not. And so it’s like if I wake
up and I’m charged up and I’m

599
00:35:39,986 –> 00:35:42,966
overly optimistic and
positive, my kids hate that.

600
00:35:43,186 –> 00:35:44,906
I got to meet them on
their level, so to speak.

601
00:35:45,566 –> 00:35:47,086
I think the same is true for copy.

602
00:35:47,406 –> 00:35:51,966
Some people want a different energy
level, they want a different angle.

603
00:35:52,080 –> 00:35:55,686
They’re going to connect with you
if you’re a little less optimistic.

604
00:35:56,126 –> 00:35:58,226
And so that’s where you got to look at it.

605
00:35:58,386 –> 00:36:02,400
And just a reminder that not everyone
is the same as you, right? 100%.

606
00:36:02,680 –> 00:36:05,246
So what a brilliant way
to use Claw. Love that.

607
00:36:05,566 –> 00:36:06,399
Yeah. And then

608
00:36:08,666 –> 00:36:11,426
that has become how we build funnels too

609
00:36:14,026 –> 00:36:18,867
because each of those zones are
going to hit different people

610
00:36:19,407 –> 00:36:22,787
the best. So the first time we test
that, we test it to everyone on our

611
00:36:24,607 –> 00:36:26,227
website and we determine like, hey,

612
00:36:26,327 –> 00:36:30,667
the majority of people respond
well to a positive, low energy

613
00:36:31,867 –> 00:36:34,507
Piece of copy. And it’s like,
great, we can set that live for now.

614
00:36:35,087 –> 00:36:37,907
But there’s still groups of other people
that are not going to resonate with

615
00:36:37,947 –> 00:36:40,667
that at all. So once we find a
couple different ones that work,

616
00:36:41,167 –> 00:36:44,527
then we start to create
ads in that same tone and

617
00:36:46,167 –> 00:36:49,927
voice and send them to their own landing
page that speaks the way they want to

618
00:36:49,967 –> 00:36:50,967
be spoken to.

619
00:36:53,047 –> 00:36:56,727
The morning person energy is
probably the better example of it.

620
00:36:56,787 –> 00:37:00,467
The example that I have given to
my team is that when you’re drunk,

621
00:37:00,787 –> 00:37:03,887
a sober person is so annoying.
And when you’re sober,

622
00:37:04,067 –> 00:37:05,827
a drunk person is so annoying.

623
00:37:06,167 –> 00:37:07,407
Dude, what a great example.

624
00:37:07,467 –> 00:37:10,880
They should not mix at all, but
I want to sell to all of them.

625
00:37:10,960 –> 00:37:13,840
I want to sell to drunk and
sober people. Absolutely.

626
00:37:15,000 –> 00:37:20,000
So it’s created more work because
we got to make more funnels and ads

627
00:37:20,080 –> 00:37:20,913
and LPs,

628
00:37:21,280 –> 00:37:24,400
but it’s been worth it because we are
talking to people the way they want to be

629
00:37:24,480 –> 00:37:25,313
spoken to.

630
00:37:26,000 –> 00:37:29,480
Yeah. It’s so important, man. And you
start to connect all of those things.

631
00:37:30,480 –> 00:37:32,880
This is the reason why someone buys.

632
00:37:33,120 –> 00:37:36,080
Maybe this is the reason they’re
willing to admit that they buy.

633
00:37:36,520 –> 00:37:39,920
This is the deeper reason why they
buy. Now we can speak to both of those.

634
00:37:40,720 –> 00:37:43,160
This is our brand personality, right?

635
00:37:43,280 –> 00:37:46,720
This is how we show up on a
Friday night and a Monday morning.

636
00:37:47,200 –> 00:37:48,800
This is who our customer wants to be.

637
00:37:49,240 –> 00:37:52,400
This is who we’re writing to or writing
to the guy in the ripped jeans and the

638
00:37:52,410 –> 00:37:56,480
dusty boots. And then it’s like,
okay, then how are we approaching it?

639
00:37:57,280 –> 00:38:02,080
Is it high energy positive,
optimistic? Is it low energy positive?

640
00:38:03,080 –> 00:38:06,880
Looking at all of those things, man,
you really start to create some unlocks,

641
00:38:07,800 –> 00:38:09,280
which is just phenomenal. And

642
00:38:11,440 –> 00:38:14,720
what about any creative
formulas that you use?

643
00:38:15,040 –> 00:38:19,120
So I think what we just talked
about, man, if people embrace that,

644
00:38:19,400 –> 00:38:20,720
going to create some serious unlocks.

645
00:38:21,080 –> 00:38:24,760
Let me add one more thing to that.
Yeah, please, please. Before we move on.

646
00:38:26,560 –> 00:38:30,920
The reason I stress so hard
that personality and brand
personalities need to be

647
00:38:31,200 –> 00:38:34,360
flexible is because we don’t have one why.

648
00:38:35,080 –> 00:38:38,000
There’s not one reason why
people are buying from us.

649
00:38:39,000 –> 00:38:43,560
And the example that I’ve
used is sometimes I buy
whiskey to celebrate because

650
00:38:43,720 –> 00:38:46,560
I’m happy. Sometimes
I buy because I’m sad.

651
00:38:47,640 –> 00:38:51,680
Same product, same guy, but
depending on how I’m feeling,

652
00:38:51,960 –> 00:38:53,640
my motivation for it is different.

653
00:38:53,840 –> 00:38:58,720
So that’s why I think we need to be
able to communicate in different voices

654
00:38:58,920 –> 00:39:02,880
and tones because it’s going to hit
different people in different ways at

655
00:39:02,960 –> 00:39:07,240
different times. So don’t be so focused
on like, “Oh, what’s our one why?

656
00:39:07,780 –> 00:39:12,240
What’s the thing?” There’s a hundred of
them and you need to learn eventually

657
00:39:12,320 –> 00:39:14,000
how to speak to all of them really well.

658
00:39:14,960 –> 00:39:16,040
So good. So good.

659
00:39:17,830 –> 00:39:22,560
Last couple things here as we
kind of wind our time down. First,

660
00:39:22,920 –> 00:39:26,920
do you have any kind of
creative formulas you use or any

661
00:39:28,370 –> 00:39:32,430
rubrics or like, “Hey, as I’m creating
ads, all the things we just talked about,

662
00:39:32,490 –> 00:39:36,010
but then it needs to kind of have these
elements.” Anything like that that would

663
00:39:36,030 –> 00:39:38,390
be helpful for marketers and brand owners?

664
00:39:38,630 –> 00:39:43,630
One of my favorite quick hacks that
anyone can do that I have yet to seen lose

665
00:39:43,730 –> 00:39:47,890
at a brand I’ve tested
this on is ask Claude,

666
00:39:48,010 –> 00:39:50,390
ask your favorite AI tool. “Hey,

667
00:39:50,510 –> 00:39:55,191
list all of the positive adjectives
that someone might use to describe our

668
00:39:55,371 –> 00:39:56,151
products.

669
00:39:56,151 –> 00:39:56,331
They’re.

670
00:39:56,331 –> 00:40:01,231
Going to list rugged and dependable or
maybe it’s luxurious and high end and

671
00:40:01,391 –> 00:40:02,224
exclusive.

672
00:40:03,331 –> 00:40:07,671
Then you’re going to ask it after
you upload all your customer reviews,

673
00:40:07,731 –> 00:40:08,564
you’re going to ask it,

674
00:40:08,771 –> 00:40:12,711
which of these adjectives do our customers
most want to describe themselves?

675
00:40:13,351 –> 00:40:14,091
“And it might say,” Hey,

676
00:40:14,091 –> 00:40:19,051
your customers really want to
be known as something luxurious

677
00:40:19,111 –> 00:40:22,051
and high end and premium
and like a top shelf guy.

678
00:40:23,431 –> 00:40:27,671
“Then you’re going to use the formula
that I’ve used for I think 11 brands

679
00:40:28,471 –> 00:40:33,131
now from OG to Adapt to Jack

680
00:40:33,191 –> 00:40:34,024
Daniels,

681
00:40:34,671 –> 00:40:39,371
Hexclad and Ridge have run similar
ones where you say positive

682
00:40:39,411 –> 00:40:43,432
adjective plus positive adjective
just like the customers who use it.

683
00:40:44,032 –> 00:40:44,852
So at OG,

684
00:40:44,852 –> 00:40:48,632
we said our watches were rugged and
dependable just like the men who wear it.

685
00:40:49,172 –> 00:40:53,852
Hexclad said our knives are sharp
into the point just like the chefs who

686
00:40:53,972 –> 00:40:54,805
trust it.

687
00:40:55,072 –> 00:40:59,872
Jack Daniels said their whiskey is bold
and complex like the guys who drink it.

688
00:41:00,532 –> 00:41:05,272
That formula has just crushed
over and over and over

689
00:41:05,372 –> 00:41:08,052
again. So that’s the one
like if you are new to copy,

690
00:41:08,712 –> 00:41:11,372
I’d go run through that series of prompts,

691
00:41:11,952 –> 00:41:14,632
mess with different
versions of adjectives,

692
00:41:15,512 –> 00:41:18,232
but that one’s been huge for
us and it’s super simple to do.

693
00:41:19,692 –> 00:41:20,852
Love that. And also,

694
00:41:21,212 –> 00:41:26,192
I just so appreciate that you talked
about we don’t maybe need to have this

695
00:41:26,832 –> 00:41:30,352
maniacal volume focus and obsession of,

696
00:41:30,472 –> 00:41:34,912
I must launch a hundred ads this week
or 2000 ads this month or something.

697
00:41:35,692 –> 00:41:37,992
Let’s see how many great
ads can we produce.

698
00:41:38,052 –> 00:41:39,893
And one of the things
I’ll kind of emphasize,

699
00:41:40,053 –> 00:41:42,093
because we see this on the
YouTube side a lot as well,

700
00:41:42,453 –> 00:41:45,673
there’ve been a number of brands we’ve
taken from zero to a million a month in

701
00:41:45,753 –> 00:41:49,993
spend on YouTube and most of them,
it’s with a couple of good creatives.

702
00:41:50,473 –> 00:41:52,633
We’re obviously testing
quite a few things,

703
00:41:52,693 –> 00:41:56,053
but I can think of a few examples
where it was like two ads,

704
00:41:56,253 –> 00:42:00,413
two smashing ads that unlock scale for

705
00:42:01,153 –> 00:42:02,373
six to 18 months.

706
00:42:02,953 –> 00:42:07,653
And so I think that should
maybe motivate to spend the

707
00:42:07,693 –> 00:42:10,713
time, spend the time to do the
things you’re talking about here.

708
00:42:11,533 –> 00:42:14,733
And then over time you can lean more into
volume to whatever extent makes sense

709
00:42:14,793 –> 00:42:15,493
for your brand,

710
00:42:15,493 –> 00:42:20,213
but good creative
matters and you’ve got to

711
00:42:20,333 –> 00:42:21,166
invest in it.

712
00:42:21,253 –> 00:42:25,253
So to me, it’s the
sharpening the ax analogy.

713
00:42:25,693 –> 00:42:29,873
If we both had an hour to cut down a
tree and you start hacking at the tree

714
00:42:30,074 –> 00:42:34,114
immediately, and I spend the first
45 minutes sharpening the ax,

715
00:42:34,194 –> 00:42:37,414
I think I’m going to beat
you. And in marketing,

716
00:42:37,574 –> 00:42:42,214
that ax sharpening is research
and talking to customers and

717
00:42:42,494 –> 00:42:46,454
surveying them and understanding why
they’re actually trying to buy before you

718
00:42:46,474 –> 00:42:47,354
go to make the ad.

719
00:42:48,214 –> 00:42:52,234
Well said. Well said, man. Where do you
go for inspiration? Who do you look at?

720
00:42:52,314 –> 00:42:54,374
Are you just looking at other great
brands? Are you reading books?

721
00:42:54,434 –> 00:42:56,754
You listening to podcasts? Where
do you go for creative inspiration?

722
00:42:57,074 –> 00:42:57,907
Songwriters.

723
00:42:58,754 –> 00:42:59,894
No way. Okay. Yeah.

724
00:43:00,214 –> 00:43:01,047
Yeah.

725
00:43:02,834 –> 00:43:06,434
I consume shockingly
little marketing content.

726
00:43:06,494 –> 00:43:09,694
I probably should consume
some more. But for me,

727
00:43:11,374 –> 00:43:14,954
the people that know how to connect words
to people the best are writing music.

728
00:43:18,834 –> 00:43:20,814
Morgan Wallen put out a song last year

729
00:43:22,374 –> 00:43:27,355
where he talks about if you’re going
to be a friend, be a friend like Skull,

730
00:43:27,495 –> 00:43:31,575
that’s always there in a pinch. If
you’re going to love your woman,

731
00:43:31,855 –> 00:43:34,775
love her like a Chevy, nice and steady.

732
00:43:34,895 –> 00:43:37,395
And if you have something to say,

733
00:43:37,535 –> 00:43:41,015
treat them like your browning
rifle and shoot it straight.

734
00:43:42,435 –> 00:43:46,355
And like one, those companies should all
be using that in their ads constantly.

735
00:43:46,470 –> 00:43:48,595
100%. Lean into that. Yeah. Yeah.

736
00:43:48,800 –> 00:43:53,395
But I think people that can write number
one hitted songs are understanding how

737
00:43:53,415 –> 00:43:56,895
to connect words to people’s feelings
better than anyone in marketing.

738
00:43:57,575 –> 00:44:00,135
So that’s really where I
try to get inspiration from.

739
00:44:00,795 –> 00:44:03,975
I find when I try to get too much
inspiration from competitors or from the

740
00:44:04,015 –> 00:44:07,375
industry, our ads start to sound and
feel like everyone else is, which.

741
00:44:07,395 –> 00:44:09,655
Is- It becomes derivative right
now. It’s like that thing,

742
00:44:09,800 –> 00:44:12,895
but maybe just slightly different.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s great.

743
00:44:13,075 –> 00:44:14,115
I’ve also heard,

744
00:44:14,575 –> 00:44:17,555
and I’ve always had a fascination
for copying and good marketing,

745
00:44:17,615 –> 00:44:21,656
but I’ve also heard, and this rings true
for me, paying attention to comedians,

746
00:44:21,716 –> 00:44:26,136
like listening to how do comedians
frame things and say things?

747
00:44:26,196 –> 00:44:30,176
Because generally what’s really funny
and what works is like I’m looking at an

748
00:44:30,276 –> 00:44:34,996
everyday thing, like Jerry
Seinfeld waiting for a table
in a Chinese restaurant,

749
00:44:35,136 –> 00:44:38,656
but I’m flipping that into something
hilarious and something that we can relate

750
00:44:38,696 –> 00:44:42,356
to. But I love the music thing. I
hadn’t thought a ton about that.

751
00:44:43,736 –> 00:44:47,416
My wife is helping me like country music.
I didn’t grow up liking country music.

752
00:44:48,076 –> 00:44:50,856
Nice. But I’m appreciating
it. I’m appreciating it more.

753
00:44:51,676 –> 00:44:54,556
My daughters all like it, so I’m like,
all right, all right, I got to get there.

754
00:44:54,680 –> 00:44:58,816
But I’ve also loved even
hip hop artists and stuff,

755
00:44:58,916 –> 00:45:03,456
like what they do with language, very
clever and very interesting. And so yeah,

756
00:45:03,516 –> 00:45:05,496
I hadn’t thought about that.
I’m a marketing podcast junkie,

757
00:45:05,556 –> 00:45:10,316
so I consume this stuff like I’m
running out of time, but I like that.

758
00:45:10,476 –> 00:45:11,996
I like that, listening to music.

759
00:45:12,197 –> 00:45:15,437
For inspiration. Yeah, I like
comedians too. I’m a big standup fan,

760
00:45:15,597 –> 00:45:18,717
but I haven’t treated it
like that. But I mean, yeah,

761
00:45:18,917 –> 00:45:21,317
comedians and artists,

762
00:45:21,957 –> 00:45:26,477
they make people feel more
passionately with their words than any

763
00:45:26,797 –> 00:45:27,537
marketer does.

764
00:45:27,537 –> 00:45:31,797
No one is reading your ad on Meta and
laughing out loud to themselves or nodding

765
00:45:33,377 –> 00:45:34,210
their head to it.

766
00:45:34,657 –> 00:45:35,490
Yeah. And really that’s just,

767
00:45:35,657 –> 00:45:40,437
I understand how to use language
and how to shift emotions.

768
00:45:40,497 –> 00:45:42,617
And I understand comedic
timing and things like that.

769
00:45:42,677 –> 00:45:46,537
So all of that does actually play
into good copy. It just does.

770
00:45:47,017 –> 00:45:49,857
And so that is awesome, man. Dude,

771
00:45:49,917 –> 00:45:52,937
this has been absolute gold. Love it.

772
00:45:53,077 –> 00:45:54,557
I could talk to you for
another couple of hours.

773
00:45:54,617 –> 00:45:56,957
I’ve got like media questions and
other things that I need to dive into,

774
00:45:57,077 –> 00:46:00,017
but we’ll kind wrap up it. We’ll run
it back. Next thing, we’ll wrap up,

775
00:46:00,200 –> 00:46:03,077
make this all creative
focus. But yeah, dude,

776
00:46:03,137 –> 00:46:06,257
for those that want to
find out more about you,

777
00:46:07,158 –> 00:46:11,478
tell me about the podcast, tell
me about what you post on X.

778
00:46:11,558 –> 00:46:14,198
And then also huge fan of
what you’re doing at Adapt.

779
00:46:14,258 –> 00:46:17,638
So we all need to get healthier and
probably buy some stuff from Adapt.

780
00:46:17,738 –> 00:46:21,138
Yeah, get healthier. That’s like
half the reason I took the job.

781
00:46:21,458 –> 00:46:26,038
It’s like just wanted to
reprioritize health and quality of

782
00:46:26,158 –> 00:46:30,238
life. But yeah, you can follow
me on Twitter @natelegos.

783
00:46:30,478 –> 00:46:34,018
The Tactical Impractical Podcast is
available anywhere you listen to podcasts.

784
00:46:34,658 –> 00:46:38,438
And yeah, other than that, would love
to just connect with everyone, Twitter,

785
00:46:38,578 –> 00:46:42,318
LinkedIn, and hopefully we all keep
growing brands and making money.

786
00:46:43,678 –> 00:46:46,438
Let’s do it. Nate, thanks so
much, man. It’s been awesome.

787
00:46:46,598 –> 00:46:48,378
Looking forward to round two.

788
00:46:48,738 –> 00:46:50,418
Sweet. Thanks for having
me, Brett. Appreciate.

789
00:46:50,438 –> 00:46:54,158
It. Absolutely. And as always,
thank you for tuning in.

790
00:46:54,738 –> 00:46:58,818
Would love to hear from you.
If this podcast was helpful
and I know that it was,

791
00:46:59,539 –> 00:47:03,139
share it with somebody that you think
could benefit from it. And with that,

792
00:47:03,239 –> 00:47:07,439
until next time, thank you for listening.
That’ll do it for this week’s episode.

793
00:47:07,819 –> 00:47:11,359
One final mention. If you feel like
you’ve stalled out with your growth,

794
00:47:11,959 –> 00:47:15,719
if you feel like you’ve
missed opportunities and if
you feel like your current

795
00:47:16,199 –> 00:47:19,939
team or agency, they just
don’t have that buyer anymore,

796
00:47:20,439 –> 00:47:24,379
or maybe you feel like you’ve
outgrown them, we would love to chat.

797
00:47:24,899 –> 00:47:27,819
You may be missing opportunities and
we don’t want to miss an opportunity to

798
00:47:27,899 –> 00:47:29,519
work with great brands.

799
00:47:29,739 –> 00:47:34,459
So if you’d love to scale on YouTube or
Google or Meta or Amazon or email and

800
00:47:34,999 –> 00:47:35,799
SMS,

801
00:47:35,799 –> 00:47:39,339
or just like a second set of eyes to
look over how you’re growing right now,

802
00:47:40,179 –> 00:47:44,759
visit us at omgcommerce.com
and we can’t wait to help you

803
00:47:44,919 –> 00:47:45,959
scale profitably.