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Speaker 1: There’s two ways that category management and e-comm kind of

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Speaker 1: fit together well. And I think the first one is

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Speaker 1: e-comm gives you access to so much data that doesn’t

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Speaker 1: exist with other customers. Things like ratings and reviews and

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Speaker 1: information about subscriptions and loyalty. When category managers who aren’t

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Speaker 1: in the e-comm team have the ability to tap into

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Speaker 1: that and integrate it with their other data sources, it

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Speaker 1: really complements what they already have to help them make

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Speaker 1: better decisions and recommendations for not only for e-comm, but also,

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Speaker 1: and probably more importantly, for the offline channels.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce.

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Speaker 3: I’m Rachel Tippegraph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.

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Speaker 2: I’m Sarah Hofstetter, president of Profitero.

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Speaker 3: And this is a show that talks about what’s relevant

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Speaker 3: in e-commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah, how often

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Speaker 3: do you think that your background in journalism is a

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Speaker 3: huge reason of your career success?

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Speaker 2: I know this is going to sound crazy. Taking a

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Speaker 2: journalism 101 class in college was probably the most transformative

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Speaker 2: thing in my personal and professional life, because even though

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Speaker 2: I knew my eventual husband was Before that class, we

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Speaker 2: ended up in that class together. And that was when

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Speaker 2: we started dating. So there’s that. Yeah, little known facts.

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Speaker 2: But also it turned me on to journalism. I was

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Speaker 2: planning on being a teacher. I hadn’t declared my major yet,

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Speaker 2: but I was planning on being a teacher. And I

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Speaker 2: got completely turned on to journalism and the importance of

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Speaker 2: storytelling in different ways. The difference between telling a story

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Speaker 2: like in the way Shakespeare did, where, you know, you’ve

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Speaker 2: got the first couple of acts building tension, and then

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Speaker 2: you’ve got the falling action for the last couple of acts,

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Speaker 2: to the whole idea of journalism, where you got to

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Speaker 2: start with the headline and draw the readers in, which

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Speaker 2: ultimately is a much better way to tell stories in general,

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Speaker 2: because people don’t have the attention span that they did

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Speaker 2: in Shakespearean days. But also think about that as a

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Speaker 2: marketer of how you bring people in, you know, For me,

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Speaker 2: journalistic storytelling became the arc of so many different components

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Speaker 2: of my career from PR to social media to overall marketing.

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Speaker 2: And even now, as we are in commerce, so you

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Speaker 2: kind of never know what that kernel is going to be.

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Speaker 2: That’s just going to change the trajectory of your life.

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Speaker 2: I took it as an elective and it turned out

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Speaker 2: to completely change the trajectory of my career. What was

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Speaker 2: it for you? Was it your bat mitzvah? your bat

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Speaker 2: mitzvah moment was a big one. And I don’t mean

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Speaker 2: from a ritualistic religious perspective.

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Speaker 4: You know what?

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Speaker 3: There’s actually a few moments that I think have shaped

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Speaker 3: to where I am, but I do have a similar

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Speaker 3: connection to journalism 101. So I never even told you

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Speaker 3: this story. When I entered NYU, I applied as a

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Speaker 3: journalism major. First day of school, journalism 101, there were

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Speaker 3: 350 kids in the class. And the chairwoman of the

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Speaker 3: journalism program goes, there are 350 of you in this

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Speaker 3: class and only 75 of you are going.

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Speaker 2: To make it.

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Speaker 3: It was my first day at NYU. And the first

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Speaker 3: thing I did was move out of that program.

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Speaker 2: That’s hilarious.

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Speaker 3: And I moved into the school, which is called Gallatin,

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Speaker 3: where you make your own major, where I essentially built

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Speaker 3: a curriculum around entertainment business. And that week, you know,

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Speaker 3: I’m living in New York City for the first time.

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Speaker 3: And I physically collided on 2nd Avenue with this comedian

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Speaker 3: named Judah Friedlander.

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Speaker 2: Oh, 30 Rock.

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Speaker 3: And I don’t know what came over me. But he

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Speaker 3: was in a movie that summer called American Splendor that

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Speaker 3: I loved. So first I told him that. The second

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Speaker 3: thing I said to him is, hey, Judah, you should

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Speaker 3: join Facebook. This is the year 2005 to galvanize your

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Speaker 3: fans to get you gigs on college campuses. And he

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Speaker 3: looks at me and he goes, who are you? And

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Speaker 3: I just said, oh, I’m an NYU student. And then

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Speaker 3: he said, can you help me with what you just said?

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Speaker 3: And I said, sure. And so while I was at NYU,

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Speaker 3: I was essentially Judah Friedlander in social media and I

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Speaker 3: helped him book gigs at college campuses. And that was.

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Speaker 3: one of my first businesses.

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Speaker 2: Rachel Typograph, why is Judith Friedlander not our next guest

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Speaker 2: on Brave Commerce? I could make that happen. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just for personal benefit, I would find that

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Speaker 2: that would be a moment for me. That is a

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Speaker 2: great story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it’s pretty wild. So I have a few stories

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Speaker 3: like that that helped shaped where I am. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: quit journalism after one day.

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Speaker 2: I want to one class was a lot smaller than yours.

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Speaker 3: Enough about Sarah and I. You’re about to hear a

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Speaker 3: really cool personal story that absolutely has shaped his professional journey.

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Speaker 3: And so on that note, let’s bring Ken from Unilever

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Speaker 3: onto the show.

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Speaker 2: We are happy to have Ken McFarland, Global Head of

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Speaker 2: Digital Commerce for Unilever Home Care, coming to us from

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Speaker 2: the UK. So don’t let his American accent fool you. Ken,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: We’re thrilled. You know, usually the last thing that we

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Speaker 2: ask at the end of the podcast is, what’s the

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Speaker 2: bravest thing you’ve ever done? Here’s the problem. Problem is,

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Speaker 2: the first thing people are going to do after listening

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Speaker 2: or even while listening is, is look at your LinkedIn

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Speaker 2: profile and there’s a picture of you bungee jumping. So

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Speaker 2: we’re just going to like skip to the beginning and

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Speaker 2: maybe you’ll have a different answer for the bravest thing.

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Speaker 2: But let’s put a little humanity behind it. What the hell?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was something my wife and I did when

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Speaker 1: we were in New Zealand a few years ago. We

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Speaker 1: were in Queenstown on holiday, and it was supposedly the

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Speaker 1: spot where bungee jumping originated. So I thought, well, if

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Speaker 1: I’m ever going to do it, this is the place.

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Speaker 1: I have to admit, despite it being my idea, it

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Speaker 1: was a bit terrifying staring over the edge of the bridge.

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Speaker 1: But once I made the leap, it was amazing for

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Speaker 1: those few seconds I was in the air. And I’d

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Speaker 1: totally do it again. The funny thing is, is that

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Speaker 1: I’m a little bit scared of heights, but I do

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Speaker 1: crazy things like bungee jumping, hang gliding and rock climbing

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Speaker 1: to challenge myself, whether it’s in my personal or professional life.

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Speaker 1: I just hate thinking there are things I can’t do.

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Speaker 1: So I always try to push through the fear and

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Speaker 1: prove to myself that I can.

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Speaker 2: I love that. And I think it’s clearly indicative of

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Speaker 2: the kind of choices that you’ve made in your career.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we just talked about, you know, the fact

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Speaker 2: that you’ve moved to the UK for this particular role

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Speaker 2: of your job. But you came into Unilever, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the largest CPGs in the world via the

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Speaker 2: acquisition of Seventh Generation, if I recall correctly, right?

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Speaker 3: That’s it.

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Speaker 2: And so you come there and you’re in like crazy

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Speaker 2: blitzscaling mode. You guys were just like rocket ship growth.

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Speaker 2: Now at Unilever, obviously, you know, you’re not going to

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Speaker 2: have rocket ship because it’s a bigger ship. How do

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Speaker 2: you change your style since the acquisition? How do you

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Speaker 2: balance the adventurous bungee jumping with the pace that ends

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Speaker 2: up happening at a larger organization?

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Speaker 1: Luckily, after the acquisition, nobody wanted me to stop being

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Speaker 1: Ken from 7th Gen and start being somebody else. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it was quite the opposite. People at Unilever really liked

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Speaker 1: what 7Gen brought to the party. So all my differences,

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Speaker 1: even my American differences in London, were really appreciated. That said,

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Speaker 1: I guess I would say that the two areas where

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Speaker 1: I really did kind of have to dial up, I

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Speaker 1: would say, were how I approached stakeholder and process management.

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Speaker 1: At 7Gen, everybody sat in the same building. So you

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Speaker 1: could easily huddle with a few people you knew really

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Speaker 1: well and quickly get to a decision. At Unilever, the

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Speaker 1: relevant stakeholders could be people you’ve never met in an

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Speaker 1: office halfway around the world. So it’s not always possible

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Speaker 1: to use that seventh gen kind of up close and

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Speaker 1: personal approach. That’s where the process comes in. When you

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Speaker 1: work in a small company with few people, you don’t

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Speaker 1: necessarily need a ton of process. But in a big

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Speaker 1: company like Unilever, formalized processes let you accomplish tasks in

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Speaker 1: a structure where you can’t simply depend on relationships to

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Speaker 1: get things done all the time.

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Speaker 2: I hear you on the whole process thing. I remember

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Speaker 2: my first trip to 7Gen. The floor plan looked nothing

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Speaker 2: like a typical CPG. The values were all over. No

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Speaker 2: matter where you turned, you could be going into the

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Speaker 2: bathroom and you saw those values. The way that you

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Speaker 2: rewarded your employees based on those values.

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Speaker 4: I mean.

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Speaker 2: There was such a unique culture about it and probably

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Speaker 2: fostered a heck of a lot of just openness and

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Speaker 2: transparency for you to be able to be like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: let me call Ken and I’ll be able to get

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Speaker 2: something done. How does that translate even from the point

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Speaker 2: of process? Not just about the not knowing the people,

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Speaker 2: but just the whole idea of it being a bigger

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Speaker 2: organization in and of itself. Are there things that you said,

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Speaker 2: you know what, there’s a way that I can Take

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Speaker 2: the convenience of getting up and walking over to somebody else,

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Speaker 2: but do so in a way that retains the personal touch,

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Speaker 2: but still takes into account the fact that you might

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Speaker 2: be in different time zones and you might be talking

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Speaker 2: asynchronously or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the one thing that there’s definitely

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Speaker 1: in common between the two organizations is that they’re really

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Speaker 1: good people. You know, I probably wouldn’t still be at

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Speaker 1: Unilever if it was completely different type of people that

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Speaker 1: worked at Unilever versus Seventh Generation. I think that there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of very values-led people that work at Unilever. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, the scale is very different, but… you know,

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Speaker 1: if you go and talk to somebody here, they want

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Speaker 1: to help you. They want you to be successful. They

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Speaker 1: want the project that you’re working on to be successful.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they’re very busy. Sometimes you have to organize, you

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Speaker 1: have to, you know, make time with them as opposed

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Speaker 1: to just going and knocking on their desk. But we

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Speaker 1: do have a lot of like kind of sub communities

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Speaker 1: within the organization. You know, e-commerce, for instance, is a

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Speaker 1: community within the broader Unilever structure. And, you know, you

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Speaker 1: develop really strong relationships across these kind of different community

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Speaker 1: groups that you belong to. So whether it’s home care

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Speaker 1: for me or e-com or sales or marketing, the commonality

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Speaker 1: of really nice, friendly people who want to work together

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Speaker 1: combined with kind of those micro communities makes it really

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Speaker 1: easy to kind of keep a lot of that relationship

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Speaker 1: part of it in.

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Speaker 3: On top of coming from seventh generation, another interesting part

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Speaker 3: of your background is that you grew up in category management.

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Speaker 3: So as you think about your evolution into e-commerce, which

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Speaker 3: parts of your category management background do you feel were

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Speaker 3: transferable and where was the learning curve?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I’m a huge proponent of category management in general.

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Speaker 1: I think it’s very near and dear to my heart.

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Speaker 1: And from a sales perspective, I always think it’s like

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Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving. If you do a

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Speaker 1: really good job with category management, you benefit from it

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Speaker 1: over the long haul. But I also think that there’s

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Speaker 1: two ways that category management and e-comm kind of fit

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Speaker 1: together well. And I think the first one is, Ecom

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Speaker 1: gives you access to so much data that doesn’t exist

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Speaker 1: with other customers. Things like ratings and reviews and information

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Speaker 1: about subscriptions and loyalty. When category managers who aren’t in

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Speaker 1: the Ecom team have the ability to tap into that

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Speaker 1: and integrate it with their other data sources, it really

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Speaker 1: complements what they already have to help them make better

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Speaker 1: decisions and recommendations for not only for Ecom, but also,

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Speaker 1: and probably more importantly, for the offline channels. But secondly,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned about my background, that richness of data

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Speaker 1: means that category management and even finance can be a

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Speaker 1: more relevant background to have for e-com commercial roles, more

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Speaker 1: so than traditional sales experience. There are several examples on

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Speaker 1: my teams where an e-com role was the first customer

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Speaker 1: facing sales experience for people with this type of analytic background.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of them have gone on to do

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Speaker 1: some really great things in sales.

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Speaker 2: Can I double click on that? Because, you know, the

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Speaker 2: roles of what’s included in a e-com or d-com role

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Speaker 2: at different organizations vary. So the way that you just

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Speaker 2: kind of positioned it is much more in the almost

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Speaker 2: like P & L kind of a mindset than more

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Speaker 2: of a COE enablement mindset. So what’s your, I’m not

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Speaker 2: going to say secret sauce because then it would be

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Speaker 2: a secret, but kind of where do you see the

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Speaker 2: lines of what somebody in an e-com capability should have

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Speaker 2: as their almost core skill set to be successful at Unilever?

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Speaker 1: You know, I’ve done both channels, right? So I’ve done

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Speaker 1: online and offline. When I think about the reality of

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Speaker 1: a lot of e-com business, it’s You know, I always

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Speaker 1: think it’s just math. That’s what I always say to

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Speaker 1: my team.

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Speaker 3: It’s just math.

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Speaker 1: In a lot of cases, if you’re meeting with Amazon,

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Speaker 1: how good of a relationship you have with them isn’t

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Speaker 1: going to help you if your profitability isn’t strong enough

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Speaker 1: to cover the cost of shipment. So I really do

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Speaker 1: think that there’s all the numbers and the number crunching

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Speaker 1: that goes into e-comm is super critical. When I was

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Speaker 1: in the States and I was working in grocery, you know,

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Speaker 1: you would go and take your buyer out to lunch

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Speaker 1: or you’d play golf and talk business, you know, those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. That’s just not really a thing in

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Speaker 1: my experience in e-com. And e-com, it’s about the numbers.

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Speaker 1: It’s like, how do you put together the right compelling story?

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Speaker 1: How do you build the right P & L so

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Speaker 1: that it really does work for you and for the customer?

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Speaker 1: So For me, I think that the analytics piece is

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Speaker 1: critical because I think if you don’t do that right,

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Speaker 1: you can have the prettiest presentation in the world, but

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Speaker 1: you’re going to go nowhere.

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Speaker 3: I remember 10 years ago, I was sitting in some

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Speaker 3: conference presentation and a person on the stage presented this

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Speaker 3: slide that said, you can’t take an Amazon algorithm out

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Speaker 3: to lunch. And people in the.

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Speaker 2: Audience were aghast. They were like, what?

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Speaker 3: And so, yeah, totally agree with you. We were just

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Speaker 3: at Cannes with a bunch of Unilever folks. And Unilever

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Speaker 3: won Marketer of the Year. And a former guest of

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Speaker 3: Brave Commerce took that award, which was Essie Eggleston Bracey,

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Speaker 3: who we’re very appreciative that we’ve had her on the show.

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Speaker 3: As you think about your role at Unilever, focusing on e-commerce,

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Speaker 3: how does creativity come into the equation?

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Speaker 1: I think it really comes in two ways. The obvious

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Speaker 1: way would be to talk about the creativity that we

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Speaker 1: use on the channel or in the channel. But I

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Speaker 1: also think there’s a lot of creativity that goes into

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Speaker 1: the storytelling and selling about the channel. Let me explain

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Speaker 1: what I mean. So when I think about being creative,

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Speaker 1: bringing creativity to the work we do in e-commerce platforms,

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Speaker 1: online content and media are two huge focus areas. For content,

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Speaker 1: things like how do we communicate fragrance or how do

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Speaker 1: we measure effectiveness requires a lot of creativity to come

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Speaker 1: up with the right benchmarks, to come up with the

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Speaker 1: right solutions, to kind of communicate with the shoppers in

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Speaker 1: the right way. For media… It’s about the assets. It’s

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Speaker 1: about how and when we choose to engage with the

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Speaker 1: shoppers and how we decide where to invest. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of times it’s creativity around tools and how do

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Speaker 1: you compare one asset versus another to come up with

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Speaker 1: the best recommendation. But when I think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe more excitingly to me is the being creative about

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Speaker 1: the channel. If a business does 40 or 50% of

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Speaker 1: its sales via e-com, you don’t have to do a

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Speaker 1: lot to convince the organization to lean into it. If anything,

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Speaker 1: the organization may already be set up to drive specifically

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Speaker 1: for e-com. On the other hand, if e-com is only

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Speaker 1: 10 or 15% of a business, you really need to

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Speaker 1: be creative about how you get people excited enough to

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Speaker 1: devote their sometimes scarce resources to driving it. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you have great historical sales data and channel trends,

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Speaker 1: that’ll get you so far, but you really need to

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Speaker 1: be creative to tell a story about why the channel

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Speaker 1: is so relevant for a specific project or a specific

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Speaker 1: brand manager or a specific supply chain person. So I

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Speaker 1: really love that storytelling side of it. Some of it

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Speaker 1: occurs in the platforms, of course, but I think there’s

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Speaker 1: a ton that actually occurs behind the scenes within the

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Speaker 1: organization to make sure everybody is excited and energized about

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Speaker 1: what we are and what we can deliver in the channel.

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Speaker 2: I kind of want to If we can, because I

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Speaker 2: like the way that you were positioning the role of creativity.

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Speaker 2: And now it’s almost taking me back to the prior

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Speaker 2: question we were talking about, about like kind of what’s

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Speaker 2: included in the DCOM role and what’s not. Because you’ve

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Speaker 2: got this functional expertise within e-commerce, like, you know, sales, trade,

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Speaker 2: executional work. And we just talked about content and creativity.

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Speaker 2: It’s almost like you’ve got to be a jack of

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Speaker 2: all trades, but you’ve also got to be, frankly, a

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Speaker 2: master designer. You’ve got to be more than a 101

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Speaker 2: on all of those things. This might theoretically, or maybe really,

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Speaker 2: be one of the hardest jobs in an entire company

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Speaker 2: because you actually have to be a generalist and specialist

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Speaker 2: at the same time. That also could be that the

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Speaker 2: deeper that they get in their capabilities that are cross-functional,

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Speaker 2: the more easily you can actually create an unintended consequence

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Speaker 2: of asylum. Because if you actually can do everything from DCOM,

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Speaker 2: then how does Catman… take into consideration? How does creativity

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Speaker 2: get infused? So it’s almost like, how is the osmosis

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Speaker 2: and reverse osmosis working? And how do you set up

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Speaker 2: the right kind of like guardrails within the rest of

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Speaker 2: the sales and marketing organization, at least within home care?

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Speaker 2: Let’s keep it within your locus of control, if you will.

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Speaker 1: As I mentioned before, I’ve worked in multiple channels and

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Speaker 1: e-comm more than any other would, you know, we would

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Speaker 1: be completely sunk if we weren’t in lockstep with the

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Speaker 1: broader sales and marketing organization. You spoke to the complexity,

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Speaker 1: you spoke to the kind of Jack of all trades,

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Speaker 1: master of none. But I really do think that it

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Speaker 1: takes a village in this case. I think we have

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Speaker 1: to have really strong cross-functional relationships, cross-functional partnerships with other

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Speaker 1: parts of the business in order to get our business done.

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Speaker 1: So we work really closely with the marketing teams on

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Speaker 1: product development, on content creation, on media. And we work

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Speaker 1: with the sales team, the broader sales team, to drive

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Speaker 1: distribution and activation of the products. And if any of

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Speaker 1: these things didn’t happen, we wouldn’t have a business. As

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Speaker 1: much as we work with them to drive our business,

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Speaker 1: the benefit for them is we also give a lot back.

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Speaker 1: So we go back to marketing with real-time trends from

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Speaker 1: our online reviews and emerging demand spaces that we see

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Speaker 1: coming from search. And we go back to the broader

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Speaker 1: sales team with insights from our online performance and what

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Speaker 1: we’re seeing from competition to help their offline selling stories.

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Speaker 1: So it really is a two-way street. I think The

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Speaker 1: whole idea of you have to have a broad understanding

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Speaker 1: of the media and how it works and the portfolio

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Speaker 1: and the profitability and the whole P & L in

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Speaker 1: order to be an effective e-com salesperson. That said, we

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Speaker 1: also need a ton of interaction and support from the

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Speaker 1: broader organization in order to maximize the efficiency.

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Speaker 3: Well, Ken, we opened… with speaking to your bravery, but

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Speaker 3: you’re going to have to give a different answer than

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Speaker 3: what you said in the beginning. What’s the bravest thing

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Speaker 3: you’ve ever done?

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Speaker 1: I have to say, after listening to a lot of

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Speaker 1: the previous episodes, I believe somebody else already gave this answer,

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Speaker 1: but I’m going to give it again anyway. I think

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Speaker 1: the bravest thing I’ve done was when I was 18

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Speaker 1: and all my friends were going off to college and

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Speaker 1: I went to Brazil to be an exchange student for

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Speaker 1: a year instead. I didn’t speak Portuguese, never been to

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Speaker 1: Brazil before, and the only people I knew were my

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Speaker 1: host family, who I’d received two letters from prior to

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Speaker 1: my departure. The first couple of months were super hard,

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Speaker 1: and I was really lonely, but in the end, it

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Speaker 1: was one of the best experiences of my life. After

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Speaker 1: that year, I felt like I was more confident, more independent,

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Speaker 1: and learned how to bridge communication gaps with people who

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Speaker 1: I didn’t necessarily see eye to eye with. Luckily, I’ve

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Speaker 1: been able to stay in touch with some of the

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Speaker 1: friends I made during that year, but I still consider

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Speaker 1: it not only the bravest, but also the most character

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Speaker 1: building thing I’ve ever done.

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Speaker 2: You know, even though that’s a similar answer from a

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Speaker 2: different guest, the context is all that matters and what

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Speaker 2: it did for you and how, like when you said that,

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Speaker 2: I’m like, of course he did. Of course he did.

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Speaker 2: This makes him so good at his current job. It

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Speaker 2: makes him so good at the relatability. Like as you’re

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Speaker 2: saying it, I’m like, the light bulb went off. Okay,

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Speaker 2: now I understand why you’re able to do the different

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Speaker 2: jobs that you have done over the course of your career.

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Speaker 2: You can figure out a relatability component. You can figure

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Speaker 2: out those points of intersection and then you can pretty

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Speaker 2: much navigate anywhere. So I love your answer. It’s a

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Speaker 2: personal answer and yet it’s entirely reflective of of something

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Speaker 2: that clearly influenced your professional success. So thank you for

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Speaker 2: sharing that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really wish everybody could do it. I know

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Speaker 1: it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but when I think

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Speaker 1: about my family, I always think, I wish all of

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Speaker 1: my nieces and nephews would take advantage of the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I think it’s life-changing.

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Speaker 3: It’s one of my biggest regrets. So as you were talking,

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Speaker 3: it was another nail in the coffin of things I

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Speaker 3: didn’t do.

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Speaker 2: You can always pay it forward, Rachel.

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Speaker 3: It’s true.

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Speaker 2: There’s always the next generation.

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Speaker 4: That’s right.

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Speaker 3: Well, Ken, so appreciative for your time and congrats on

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Speaker 3: all your success.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: If you like what you heard and you want to

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Speaker 3: go a little bit deeper on Unilever, go check out

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Speaker 3: an episode that we did with their global CMO, A.C.

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Speaker 3: Eggleston Bracey, who accepted the Cannes Award this year for

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Speaker 3: most creative marketer. And then if you want to go

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Speaker 3: a little bit deeper into people who have backgrounds in

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Speaker 3: category management, go check out an episode with Clorox with

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Speaker 3: Sarah Aubrex. If you like what you hear, tell a friend,

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Speaker 3: write a review. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

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Speaker 4: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

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Speaker 4: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

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Speaker 4: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

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Speaker 4: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 4: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

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Speaker 4: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

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Speaker 4: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

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Speaker 4: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

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Speaker 4: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

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Speaker 4: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.