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Speaker 1: In a world where AI, everybody knows AI matters, CPGs

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Speaker 1: are starting to go, why does it matter? Is it

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Speaker 1: just for my customer care? Is it just for my

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Speaker 1: ad creative, chat GPT, you know, gen AI? Is it

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Speaker 1: just for social listening? Or could I be doing something

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Speaker 1: with AI that relates to pricing, right? Finding the efficient

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Speaker 1: frontier for pricing everything I sell through net price strategies.

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Speaker 1: That’s really the big unlock in terms of kind of

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Speaker 1: a tectonic plate shift in how CPG approaches markets that

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Speaker 1: I’m really, really excited about. And I think private label

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Speaker 1: encroachment is one of the biggest catalysts for that experimentation.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce.

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Speaker 3: I’m Rachel Tippegraph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.

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Speaker 2: I’m Sarah Hofstetter, president of Profitero.

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Speaker 3: And this is a show that talks about what’s relevant

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Speaker 3: in e-commerce for the world’s biggest brands.

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Speaker 2: Rachel, question for you. I know, I know, it’s role reversal.

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Speaker 2: I’m asking you a question first. So Rachel, how did

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Speaker 2: you come up with.

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Speaker 3: The name Micmac? It wasn’t the original name. When I

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Speaker 3: was fundraising in fall of 2014, I was going around

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Speaker 3: New York and San Francisco telling people that the company

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Speaker 3: was called Tchotchke because the original idea was that I

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Speaker 3: was going to sell products below $ 100 and nothing with sizes.

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Speaker 3: So In Yiddish, as you know very well, Sarah, tchotchke

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Speaker 3: means knickknack. A early investor told me that while he

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Speaker 3: loved the spirit of the name, he goes, no one

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Speaker 3: can spell it. People can barely say it. You got

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Speaker 3: to change the name. And if you change the name,

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Speaker 3: I’ll double my investment. And in the early days, you

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Speaker 3: kind of take those door openings and jump through them.

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Speaker 3: And so out loud, I literally go, well, tchotchke means

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Speaker 3: knickknack in Yiddish. So why don’t I call the company Micmac?

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Speaker 3: And that was that.

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Speaker 2: That was that. So that was the first in a

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Speaker 2: series of pivots because McMag as it stands today does

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Speaker 2: not sell products for under $ 100. So nor does it

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Speaker 2: sell tchotchkes unless there’s some new business model you should

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Speaker 2: be sharing with me. So when do you know it’s

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Speaker 2: time to pivot as an entrepreneur? When becomes the moment

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Speaker 2: where you’re like, okay, how do you do it before

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Speaker 2: the going gets tough? Or how do you do it

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Speaker 2: before you miss the next big thing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it’s paying attention to early signals. And

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Speaker 3: you don’t need too many. I feel like you just

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Speaker 3: need a few to validate the guttural instinct that you have.

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Speaker 3: You know, there are a lot of things that are

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Speaker 3: hard in business, but the moment you start to experience

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Speaker 3: product market fit and positive tailwinds, you then realize those really,

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Speaker 3: really tough times, it’s actually a signal of opportunity because

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Speaker 3: what you’re doing probably isn’t the answer. And so it’s

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Speaker 3: that famous saying, what got you here today is not

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Speaker 3: what’s going to get you here tomorrow. And if you

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Speaker 3: constantly have that at the forefront of your mind and

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Speaker 3: you’re paying attention to early market signals and you might

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Speaker 3: be experiencing some tough things, you got to say to yourself,

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Speaker 3: there’s another way forward. And I’ve had, honestly, a series

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Speaker 3: of those moments throughout my journey at Micmac.

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Speaker 2: Interesting. Another company that comes to mind, so coincidentally, that

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Speaker 2: also has a name that you say, where the hell

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Speaker 2: did that come from? Ibotta. In fact, it was only

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Speaker 2: a few years ago that I found out that it

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Speaker 2: is actually pronounced Ibotta. But did you ever stop to

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Speaker 2: think like, why the hell did they come up with

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Speaker 2: that name? Is it the I thing or is it

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Speaker 2: something else?

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Speaker 3: It’s funny. We joke in the show, or maybe it

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Speaker 3: was off the recording. I can’t remember. But a few

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Speaker 3: employees have moved between Micmac and Ibotta. And I always

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, we just attract people who like funny

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Speaker 3: company names.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I would put Ibotta in the category of

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Speaker 3: funny company names, the same way you put McBack there.

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Speaker 2: I work at a company called Profitero and people constantly

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Speaker 2: call it profiterole, which is a dessert. Why the hell

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Speaker 2: would you have a SaaS company that is named for

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Speaker 2: a French pastry? And the answer is it’s a profit hero.

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Speaker 2: But you know, thankfully Brave Commerce is pretty damn straightforward.

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Speaker 4: You know why?

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Speaker 3: Because we named it together.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of sanity here. But Ibotta means like,

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Speaker 2: I bought a, I bought a camera.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that’s good.

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Speaker 2: I bought a bag of groceries. It’s one of those

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Speaker 2: things where, you know, we did have our light bulb moment,

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Speaker 2: but it’s just one in a series of pivots that

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Speaker 2: Brian Leach has made over the past 12 years since

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Speaker 2: he founded Ibotta. And I think his insight into when

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Speaker 2: and where and how to pivot as, you know, help

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Speaker 2: them get to IPO, tremendous market share, great brand awareness

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Speaker 2: and and really leaning into the different changes that have

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Speaker 2: been happening from a consumer perspective, from a supplier perspective,

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Speaker 2: from a retailer perspective, sitting at that intersection, which is

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Speaker 2: not the easiest thing to be able to do, and

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Speaker 2: constantly shapeshifting without losing core of what you’re trying to achieve.

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Speaker 3: Well, on that note, let’s bring Brian onto the show.

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Speaker 2: Brian, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your

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Speaker 2: thinking with us.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

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Speaker 2: As a fellow entrepreneur, you’ve been building about it for

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Speaker 2: 12 or so years and you went public this year.

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Speaker 2: So congratulations. That’s a pretty big stuff.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Take us back to when you started the company. Like,

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Speaker 2: do you have the same why now as you did

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Speaker 2: 12 years ago? Take us a little bit behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I started the company in 2012. The idea at

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Speaker 1: the time was to provide a single starting point for

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Speaker 1: rewarded shopping for American consumers. We wanted them to be

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Speaker 1: able to earn cash back on everyday purchases no matter

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Speaker 1: where they shopped. And we had an app they could

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Speaker 1: download for free where they could take a picture of

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Speaker 1: a receipt and prove their purchases that way and get

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Speaker 1: instantaneous PayPal credit or a gift card credit. Got about

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Speaker 1: 50 million people to download and register for those accounts.

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Speaker 1: Gave away $ 2 billion in cash back rewards. Built a

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Speaker 1: large portfolio of clients that appreciated the chance to directly

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Speaker 1: connect with consumers and get them to try new products.

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Speaker 1: But I would say that about five years into the company,

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Speaker 1: we realized that we could do something on a much

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Speaker 1: grander scale while preserving the mission. And that was to

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Speaker 1: make every purchase rewarding. So we have a four word mission,

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Speaker 1: make every purchase rewarding. And that meant not just affecting

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Speaker 1: the purchases of people who started on the Ibotta app,

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Speaker 1: but also powering loyalty programs for some of the world’s largest,

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Speaker 1: what we call them publishers. So we built, designed, and

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Speaker 1: power the program at Walmart, which is called Walmart Cash.

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Speaker 1: It’s a manufacturer offer program that’s replacing paper coupons at Walmart.

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Speaker 1: We power the Dollar General program, DG Cash, Family Dollar,

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Speaker 1: and I put content on Proger and elsewhere. And so

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Speaker 1: now you can reach 91% of American households. And we

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Speaker 1: believe that one day we’ll be giving away billions of

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Speaker 1: dollars each year. But that’s because we reach a much

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Speaker 1: broader network But from the advertiser perspective, it’s largely the

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Speaker 1: same idea, which is instead of charging an advertiser for

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Speaker 1: impressions or clips, we charge them on a fee per

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Speaker 1: unit sold basis. And they can combine that kind of

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Speaker 1: performance-based approach with much greater scale. So that’s how we’ve

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Speaker 1: evolved over time.

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Speaker 3: It’s a pretty amazing approach. thing that you were able

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Speaker 3: to do in five years which is not just recognize

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Speaker 3: that there was a bigger business opportunity but that’s a

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Speaker 3: very different motion having a iphone android app that consumers

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Speaker 3: can download to now essentially being a b2b white label

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Speaker 3: software platform for retailers so just to double click in

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Speaker 3: there and both of sarah and i wearing our entrepreneur

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Speaker 3: hats like How did you get the company to be

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Speaker 3: able to adopt a totally different business motion and scale it?

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Speaker 1: It’s a great question. I think it’s partly identifying that

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Speaker 1: what got us here won’t get us there and that

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Speaker 1: we need to try new things to continue to address

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Speaker 1: the needs of our clients. I think it’s partly the

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Speaker 1: law of large numbers. If you want to grow at 30%

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Speaker 1: and you have hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue,

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Speaker 1: that’s a lot harder than growing at 30% when you

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Speaker 1: have $ 50 million of revenue. And so the bets you

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Speaker 1: have to place have to be a lot bigger just

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Speaker 1: because as you get into the out years of a

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Speaker 1: model and you look at investor return on investment expectations,

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Speaker 1: you just have to place bigger bets. And look, some

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Speaker 1: of the bets we placed didn’t work. We had an

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Speaker 1: initiative with Ibotta that was a fairly miserable flop. But

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Speaker 1: what we did was we mothballed that relatively quickly. And

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Speaker 1: the next big idea was what we call the Ibotta

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Speaker 1: Performance Network, which is what we’re speaking about now. The

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Speaker 1: way I’ve always described it to the company is, About 70%

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Speaker 1: of our time and focus is on running the business

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Speaker 1: we’re in right now and innovating that business. About 20%

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Speaker 1: is building new businesses that we have conviction in. And

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Speaker 1: then 10% is hunting and spelunking and finding dry wells

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Speaker 1: and new ideas that might become the basis of the

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Speaker 1: next 20% idea. And at one point, the IPN was

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Speaker 1: just a 10% idea. Then it was a 20% idea

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Speaker 1: and we were still spending the vast majority of our

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Speaker 1: time and energy talking about our direct-to-consumer app. At some point,

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Speaker 1: probably around the time when we landed Walmart as our

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Speaker 1: partner and got to a place where we were going

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Speaker 1: to be the only company that could promote products to

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Speaker 1: Walmart consumers on their website, we realized, okay, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is probably going to at some point become larger

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Speaker 1: than our D2C business. It was growing much more quickly.

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Speaker 1: And so as we started to realize that that was

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Speaker 1: a much more profitable business and a much more scalable business.

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Speaker 1: I think we had that conversation in stages with our company,

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Speaker 1: but we make sure they understand that direct-to-consumer business is

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Speaker 1: hugely important, that it serves our mission, that it has

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Speaker 1: strategic value, it generates cash that we reinvest in our business.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think change management in an organization is tricky.

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Speaker 1: And it starts by, I think, doing the thing that

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Speaker 1: a lot of us find the hardest, or I find

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Speaker 1: the hardest, which is really looking yourself in the mirror

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Speaker 1: and saying, is what I have really good enough to

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Speaker 1: get to where I want to go? Or do I

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Speaker 1: need to kind of go back to the drawing board

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Speaker 1: and think differently? And it’s so easy to kind of

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Speaker 1: talk yourself into, oh, no, this could happen. And then

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Speaker 1: this could break my way. And the hardest thing is

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Speaker 1: to sort of stare down. No, man, this actually isn’t

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Speaker 1: good enough. And you’ve got to kind of take a

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Speaker 1: different approach.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of the growth lever that you’re focused

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Speaker 3: on today, it sounds like it’s the Ibotta Performance Network.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the D2C app is a node on that network.

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Speaker 1: It is one publisher on that network. But you’re right

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Speaker 1: that the third-party publishers, as we call them, meaning the retailers,

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Speaker 1: but also new categories, whether that’s a recipe site or

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Speaker 1: social influencers or whether that is any other place where

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Speaker 1: purchase intent arises, we want to put our offer content

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Speaker 1: in front of those consumers. Somewhat like the vision of Micmac,

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Speaker 1: which is to make that actually a shoppable experience. We

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Speaker 1: want to put the rewards in front of consumers where

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Speaker 1: their purchase intent arises. It might be a food delivery app.

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Speaker 1: It might be a banking site. It might be a

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Speaker 1: recipe site. And have them be able to select that,

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Speaker 1: put it on their shopping list or in their cart,

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Speaker 1: and then buy that and earn rewards. And so that

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Speaker 1: is very much the story that you would see if

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Speaker 1: you watched our roadshow video or read our S1 as

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Speaker 1: we went public. And that is absolutely the primary driver

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Speaker 1: of growth.

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Speaker 3: And so if I’m a brand advertiser and I’m thinking

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Speaker 3: about all the places where I can invest my dollars,

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Speaker 3: you know, we hear Ibotta come up, we hear Walmart

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Speaker 3: Connect come up, we hear Criteo come up, we hear

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Speaker 3: the Trade Desk come up. How do you want brand

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Speaker 3: advertisers to think about Ibotta’s role in retail media?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s a great question. And we are complementary with

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Speaker 1: retail media. We don’t sell retail media. We think retailers

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Speaker 1: should sell retail media. They don’t need a third party

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Speaker 1: sales force. They have the data, they have the display

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Speaker 1: or the sponsored search or what have you. What we

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Speaker 1: know is that by putting thousands of high quality offers

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Speaker 1: onto their website, it increases the number of eyeballs that

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Speaker 1: are coming to their website. We know that over 80%

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Speaker 1: of traffic on a grocery website, for example, is there

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Speaker 1: looking for deals. We also know that it increases the

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Speaker 1: performance of retail media because people are more likely to

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Speaker 1: click on and buy through from an ad where the

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Speaker 1: creative refers to some value that the consumer can get

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Speaker 1: for buying the product that’s in the ad. And then lastly,

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Speaker 1: we know that we need digital identification, particularly in an

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Speaker 1: in-store context, meaning we need Rachel to check in at

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Speaker 1: checkout by putting in her phone number or scanning a

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Speaker 1: QR code. And the way you do that is you

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Speaker 1: have a really effective loyalty program where people know they’re

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Speaker 1: gonna get discounts or rewards by putting in their phone

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Speaker 1: number when they check out. That then becomes the backbone

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Speaker 1: of a successful retail media business because the retailers can

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Speaker 1: then track more transactions and close the loop out from

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Speaker 1: their ads all the way to the subsequent purchases of consumers. Lastly,

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Speaker 1: retail media is a very high margin business for retailers.

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Speaker 1: So they don’t wanna be diverting dollars away from sponsored

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Speaker 1: search and display in order to fund some sort of

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Speaker 1: digital coupon where 70% has to go to the end consumers,

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Speaker 1: very low margin for them comparatively. We come in and say, look,

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Speaker 1: we’ve got this. You go back to focusing on selling

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Speaker 1: retail media, selling data, licensing it, what have you, doing

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Speaker 1: the highest margin things. And then you can rely on

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Speaker 1: our national promotions network to supply all the content you

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Speaker 1: need to power a great loyalty program. So those are

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Speaker 1: the ways in which we work with retail media.

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Speaker 2: So where does the money to fund you come from?

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Speaker 2: So if it’s not coming from retail media and Brands

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Speaker 2: aren’t finding more money to spend.

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Speaker 1: What are they.

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Speaker 2: Stealing from in order to pay for the efficacy that

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Speaker 2: you’re delivering?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, typically retail media is coming out of a retailer

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Speaker 1: exclusive budget, whether that is a shopper marketing budget or

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Speaker 1: trade budget. It’s earmarked by the team that sits within

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Speaker 1: that particular customer geography. So think of it like an

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Speaker 1: embassy to the government of Kroger, the government of CVS

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Speaker 1: or Walmart or what have you. We primarily focus almost

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Speaker 1: entirely on national marketing budgets. And so we make the

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Speaker 1: case that, look, when you look at a payback period,

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Speaker 1: and you can actually measure with Ibotta a test versus control.

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Speaker 1: You can look at millions of people who’ve been exposed

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Speaker 1: to a promotion and then have a holdout group of

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Speaker 1: people who weren’t exposed to that promotion. And every other

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Speaker 1: variable is the same. All the other exposures, television, radio,

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Speaker 1: out of home, whatever, all the same. This is the

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Speaker 1: way we design drugs, for example, right? The scientific method.

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Speaker 1: And you can actually look at the incrementality of units

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Speaker 1: sold over time compared to a control group. And when

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Speaker 1: you take into account their profit margins and the fully

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Speaker 1: loaded cost of our program, you’re seeing payback periods measured

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Speaker 1: in days. That’s extraordinarily efficient. So we encourage them to

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Speaker 1: compare that to whatever other national marketing investments they might

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Speaker 1: be making. It might be in TikTok, Facebook, Google, where

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Speaker 1: they don’t have cookies and it’s harder to target and

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Speaker 1: you can’t really measure out to a sale deterministically. It

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Speaker 1: might be that they’re focusing on sampling programs or outdated

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Speaker 1: forms of paper couponing or other things that are national

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Speaker 1: tactics that don’t have the same level of scale combined

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Speaker 1: with efficiency. So if you’re thinking about running a Super

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Speaker 1: Bowl ad, you’re going to need a 70-week attribution window

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Speaker 1: to feel good about the payback period on that. According

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Speaker 1: to the MMM models, we can show you a payback

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Speaker 1: period measured in days. So we think you should spend

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Speaker 1: your first dollar where you have the shortest payback period.

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Speaker 3: I was on the phone today with someone I’m sure

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Speaker 3: is a shared customer of all three of us, a

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Speaker 3: Fortune 1000 CPG brand. We were talking about things like

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Speaker 3: investing in the Super Bowl and what’s the right level

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Speaker 3: of promotional discount? What should the baseline pricing be? What

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Speaker 3: should their investment in TikTok look like? So, Brian, here

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Speaker 3: you are. You get to work with the biggest brands

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Speaker 3: in the world. What performance strategies are you seeing that

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Speaker 3: are separating the winners from the losers?

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Speaker 1: Look, I think that for a long time, we’ve lived

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Speaker 1: in a world of multi-touch attribution because it is impossible

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Speaker 1: to disentangle all the different potential causal factors leading to

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Speaker 1: someone buying a product over time. We’re sponsors of the

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Speaker 1: Denver Nuggets. We’re on their jersey. How much does that

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Speaker 1: drive usage and downloads of Ibotta versus the billboard on

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Speaker 1: I-25 versus the ad on TikTok? And there’s various ways

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Speaker 1: of surrounding that, guesstimating that. I think the brands that

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Speaker 1: are winning are the ones that are leaning into situations

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Speaker 1: where they have the greatest conviction that they can truly

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Speaker 1: measure without a high degree of sort of modeling and probabilism.

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Speaker 1: So you always need MMM to decide between different tactics

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Speaker 1: that you can’t disentangle. But if you have a system

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Speaker 1: where you can truly use the scientific method and look

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Speaker 1: against a control group where everything but that variable is

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Speaker 1: taken into account and is the same in a randomized control,

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Speaker 1: you can begin to think like the way a digital

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Speaker 1: marketer thinks. So the way that those of us who

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Speaker 1: sell ads, for example, in the case of a mobile app,

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Speaker 1: think is we have a partnership with AppsFlyer or Kachava,

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Speaker 1: and they measure the downstream down funnel impact of a

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Speaker 1: user’s behavior after coming in from a certain ad. So

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Speaker 1: I know TikTok leads me to a user who registers,

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Speaker 1: and I can measure the cost per first registered user,

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Speaker 1: the cost per first redeeming user, the cost per ongoing

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Speaker 1: net of churn user, and I can compare that payback

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Speaker 1: period against X or Google or Facebook or the trade desk.

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Speaker 1: And that’s how all of us in the digital world

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Speaker 1: have always thought about LTV, CAC, unit economics, payback periods.

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Speaker 1: Now you can actually do that in CPG land. And

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Speaker 1: that’s where I think the best marketers are going to go,

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Speaker 1: which is, ah, instead of saying in an annual budget process,

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Speaker 1: I’m going to give $ 20 million to this tactic. And

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Speaker 1: then they run that. And then the end of the year,

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Speaker 1: they do a 12-month delayed ROI analysis using a model. Instead,

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Speaker 1: you do what the digital world does, which is you say,

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Speaker 1: I’m solving for a 12-month payback period, or I’m solving

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Speaker 1: for a three-month payback period, or I’m solving for a

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Speaker 1: cost per incremental unit moved of this. And you spend

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Speaker 1: up to a level of efficiency that you’re comfortable with,

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Speaker 1: but you don’t pre-bake all the tactics. You’re much more agile.

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Speaker 1: So I think that’s the way the market is heading

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Speaker 1: in terms of bringing performance marketing ideas into CPG.

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Speaker 3: You know, what you’re describing isn’t just on the brand advertiser.

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Speaker 3: It’s also on the agency.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So how is Ibotta partnering with agencies to change some

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Speaker 3: of these legacy behaviors?

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Speaker 1: Such a good question. I think we’re in the early

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Speaker 1: days of that, Rachel, partly because we’ve only recently developed

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Speaker 1: this kind of methodology that is so familiar to the

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Speaker 1: best agencies in the world where they say, look, give

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Speaker 1: me the metric and then let me use whether it’s

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Speaker 1: my expertise or now increasingly AI to to optimize the

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Speaker 1: parameters of that campaign to deliver that metric for you.

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Speaker 1: That’s what we’re now doing with our AI enabled, highly segmented,

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Speaker 1: different levels of offer for different consumers, different environments. That

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Speaker 1: really lends itself to kind of that same system of

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Speaker 1: AI that makes Facebook work or Google work or these

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Speaker 1: other places work. I think now we’re starting to take

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Speaker 1: that notion of payback period and LTV CAC to agencies

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Speaker 1: that know it in other contexts because they have clients

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Speaker 1: outside of CPG And are able to really bring that

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Speaker 1: and work with that in CPG and learn how to

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Speaker 1: use the best practices of what we do. And that’s

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Speaker 1: something that I’m excited about continuing. I also think eventually

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Speaker 1: being able to buy our content, not just by calling

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Speaker 1: a seller at Ibotta, but by being able to buy

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Speaker 1: it from your agency directly from within their own ad

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Speaker 1: buying interface is something that I envision that kind of

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Speaker 1: programmatic buying on our network.

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Speaker 2: So Ibotta can see how hundreds of millions of people shop.

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Speaker 2: You’ve got to have the best crystal ball into behaviors

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Speaker 2: as we look into the second half of 2024. What

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Speaker 2: should we be looking at? What are the things that

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Speaker 2: you see based on the insane amount of.

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Speaker 3: Data that you have?

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Speaker 1: A lot of this has been commented on elsewhere, but

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Speaker 1: our data certainly backs up that there’s been a trend

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Speaker 1: in the last few years of brands. taking price, growing price,

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Speaker 1: in some cases.

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Speaker 4: 20, 30%.

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Speaker 1: That’s leading consumers to reach a point of no return

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Speaker 1: in some cases where they abandon the brand and choose

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Speaker 1: to buy the store brand. Private label rates of market

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Speaker 1: penetration are in many cases at all time highs. And

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Speaker 1: what we see that most people don’t appreciate is that

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Speaker 1: when a consumer defects or leaves the brand family and

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Speaker 1: goes to private label and buys that on several purchase cycles,

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Speaker 1: it’s very expensive to reacquire that person. So it’s actually

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Speaker 1: much smarter to find a tailored strategy to retain and

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Speaker 1: maybe trade up or build loyalty either in terms of

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Speaker 1: frequency of purchase or format or stock up than it

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Speaker 1: is to actually let them disappear and try to get

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Speaker 1: them back. Part of what makes promotions work is that

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Speaker 1: If your product is good, people buy it at time one,

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Speaker 1: they sample it, and then they like it. And they’re

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Speaker 1: reminded why it’s better than the store brand or a

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Speaker 1: competitive brand. And they buy it into the future, very

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Speaker 1: often not on sale, not on any promotion. And so

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Speaker 1: when you actually look at all that math, I think

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Speaker 1: the trends of encroachment of private label are causing people

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Speaker 1: to say, well, I have to do something about price.

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Speaker 1: I could either do that in a sort of peanut

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Speaker 1: butter fashion, retailer by retailer, by doing it with the

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Speaker 1: trade spend. Or I could have a much more intelligent

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Speaker 1: strategy that I can monitor in real time and do

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Speaker 1: much more targeting and so forth and think about adjusting

420
00:21:13,859 –> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: price in terms of net price, if you will. We’ve

421
00:21:16,520 –> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: got the shelf price and then we achieve a net

422
00:21:19,540 –> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: price that’s different for each consumer based on their elasticity

423
00:21:23,060 –> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: of demand. I don’t need to lower the price of

424
00:21:25,570 –> 00:21:28,709
Speaker 1: Pellegrino for Brian Leach because I’m a Pellegrino guy. I’m

425
00:21:28,750 –> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 1: pretty price insensitive. I’m very brand loyal. So Giving me

426
00:21:33,080 –> 00:21:37,260
Speaker 1: another 50 cents off from $ 4. 50 might not be very intelligent,

427
00:21:37,560 –> 00:21:38,740
Speaker 1: you know, and just saying, well, we’re going to give

428
00:21:38,790 –> 00:21:41,889
Speaker 1: everybody a $ 4 Pellegrino. Well, maybe Brian needs to be

429
00:21:41,930 –> 00:21:44,690
Speaker 1: given a $ 4. 50 Pellegrino and we need to give Rachel

430
00:21:44,690 –> 00:21:47,490
Speaker 1: 25 cents back and Sarah 50 cents back. And that’s

431
00:21:47,510 –> 00:21:49,869
Speaker 1: all based on what we know about each person. So

432
00:21:49,890 –> 00:21:52,890
Speaker 1: I think what you’re realizing is that in a world

433
00:21:52,910 –> 00:21:56,580
Speaker 1: where AI, everybody knows AI matters, CPGs are starting to go,

434
00:21:56,720 –> 00:21:59,490
Speaker 1: why does it matter? Is it just for my customer care?

435
00:21:59,550 –> 00:22:02,470
Speaker 1: Is it just for my ad creative, chat GPT, you know,

436
00:22:02,510 –> 00:22:06,410
Speaker 1: gen AI? Is it just for social listening? Or could

437
00:22:06,430 –> 00:22:09,570
Speaker 1: I be doing something with AI that relates to pricing, right?

438
00:22:09,650 –> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: Finding the efficient frontier for pricing everything I sell through

439
00:22:14,060 –> 00:22:18,020
Speaker 1: net price strategies. That’s really the big unlock in terms

440
00:22:18,040 –> 00:22:21,380
Speaker 1: of kind of a tectonic plate shift in how CPG

441
00:22:21,660 –> 00:22:25,020
Speaker 1: approaches markets that I’m really, really excited about. And I

442
00:22:25,060 –> 00:22:28,129
Speaker 1: think private label marketing encroachment is one of the biggest

443
00:22:28,190 –> 00:22:29,870
Speaker 1: catalysts for that experimentation.

444
00:22:30,570 –> 00:22:32,669
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I’m hearing more and

445
00:22:32,710 –> 00:22:36,149
Speaker 3: more discourse and it’s interesting. The brands are either building

446
00:22:36,170 –> 00:22:40,169
Speaker 3: these models internally. They’re also testing some providers. And I mean,

447
00:22:40,190 –> 00:22:43,020
Speaker 3: what I’m hearing back is that they’re consistently feeling like

448
00:22:43,060 –> 00:22:45,619
Speaker 3: their internal models are more accurate. So we’ll see where

449
00:22:45,640 –> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: this all shakes out. Brian, curious how you’re going to

450
00:22:48,820 –> 00:22:52,460
Speaker 3: answer our famous last question, which is what’s the bravest

451
00:22:52,520 –> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 3: thing that you’ve ever done?

452
00:22:54,630 –> 00:22:57,130
Speaker 1: Oh, man, I’m surrounded by a lot more brave people

453
00:22:57,150 –> 00:22:59,070
Speaker 1: than myself. I would say the bravest thing I’ve ever

454
00:22:59,109 –> 00:23:01,990
Speaker 1: done is I was a partner at a law firm.

455
00:23:02,450 –> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: I clerked for Justice Souter at the Supreme Court. I

456
00:23:05,359 –> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: had gone to all these fancy places and spent all

457
00:23:08,020 –> 00:23:10,820
Speaker 1: this money on my education. And I basically had a

458
00:23:10,880 –> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: tenure track job. I was in a nice life. And

459
00:23:14,520 –> 00:23:16,630
Speaker 1: I one day came home and I told my wife,

460
00:23:17,070 –> 00:23:18,790
Speaker 1: I think I want to quit my law partnership and

461
00:23:18,810 –> 00:23:21,689
Speaker 1: I want to start a cashback app in the grocery space.

462
00:23:22,180 –> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: And I want to take a 5x pay cut and

463
00:23:24,240 –> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: resign from my partnership. And by the way, I’m not

464
00:23:27,119 –> 00:23:29,550
Speaker 1: sure how we’re going to pay my law school debt down.

465
00:23:29,850 –> 00:23:32,550
Speaker 1: And I also owe money to my law firm. So

466
00:23:32,570 –> 00:23:33,770
Speaker 1: I got to figure all that out. But at the

467
00:23:33,810 –> 00:23:35,629
Speaker 1: end of all this, I want to turn it all in.

468
00:23:35,670 –> 00:23:37,250
Speaker 1: And even though I didn’t go to business school and

469
00:23:37,270 –> 00:23:39,129
Speaker 1: have never started a company, don’t have any savings, I

470
00:23:39,170 –> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: think I want to change my entire career. And everybody

471
00:23:42,140 –> 00:23:45,060
Speaker 1: around me in the world of law said, that’s incredibly dumb.

472
00:23:45,960 –> 00:23:48,900
Speaker 1: And so it takes a lot of conviction about what’s

473
00:23:48,920 –> 00:23:51,670
Speaker 1: going to make you happy and what kind of mission

474
00:23:52,010 –> 00:23:54,129
Speaker 1: matters to you, what kind of social impact you want

475
00:23:54,150 –> 00:23:56,330
Speaker 1: to have to be able to do that. And even

476
00:23:56,369 –> 00:24:00,010
Speaker 1: if you have self-confidence, the entire world conspires to tell

477
00:24:00,050 –> 00:24:02,740
Speaker 1: you that whatever idea you have is going to fail

478
00:24:02,780 –> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: because if the world thought it was going to succeed,

479
00:24:05,240 –> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: it would already exist. So you have to have not

480
00:24:07,440 –> 00:24:10,540
Speaker 1: only a piece of unconventional wisdom that you think is important,

481
00:24:10,580 –> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: but the courage to actually sacrifice real things. And when

482
00:24:13,420 –> 00:24:15,220
Speaker 1: you have two young children, as I did at the time,

483
00:24:15,640 –> 00:24:17,909
Speaker 1: that took a lot of, in my world anyway, bravery.

484
00:24:18,250 –> 00:24:20,190
Speaker 1: The reason I caveat it is just that I also

485
00:24:20,270 –> 00:24:23,110
Speaker 1: have an insane number of levels of privilege in my life.

486
00:24:23,650 –> 00:24:26,109
Speaker 1: And I always have to acknowledge that it doesn’t require

487
00:24:26,150 –> 00:24:29,650
Speaker 1: that much bravery when you have membership in a regulated monopoly,

488
00:24:29,710 –> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: like a member of the bar of the Colorado state

489
00:24:31,740 –> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: of Colorado, you have the kind of educational privilege that

490
00:24:35,140 –> 00:24:37,620
Speaker 1: I’ve had. I always felt that if I couldn’t take

491
00:24:37,680 –> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: a risk, then who could, because, you know, my ability

492
00:24:39,820 –> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: to fall back to what I have and the advantages

493
00:24:42,560 –> 00:24:45,580
Speaker 1: I have, my network and so forth was, was reasonably strong.

494
00:24:45,640 –> 00:24:48,750
Speaker 1: So In the context of that, that would be the choice.

495
00:24:49,430 –> 00:24:53,650
Speaker 3: Most lawyers are risk adverse. So kudos. I’m sure none

496
00:24:53,690 –> 00:24:54,850
Speaker 3: of your friends are doing this.

497
00:24:55,070 –> 00:24:55,290
Speaker 4: No.

498
00:24:55,369 –> 00:24:57,510
Speaker 1: In fact, when I go back to the Supreme Court reunions,

499
00:24:57,930 –> 00:25:00,129
Speaker 1: it’s always very funny because they say, what law firm

500
00:25:00,150 –> 00:25:02,050
Speaker 1: are you working at? Where are you teaching? Are you

501
00:25:02,090 –> 00:25:04,470
Speaker 1: on the bench? And I explain that I do this

502
00:25:04,490 –> 00:25:07,129
Speaker 1: thing called Ibotta. And they’re kind of like, especially Justice Souter,

503
00:25:07,460 –> 00:25:09,859
Speaker 1: who never had a computer or a cell phone. For

504
00:25:09,900 –> 00:25:12,500
Speaker 1: him to relate to what I’m doing in his 80s

505
00:25:12,580 –> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: now is tricky.

506
00:25:13,820 –> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

507
00:25:14,770 –> 00:25:17,129
Speaker 1: But I’m glad to have had both that career and

508
00:25:17,270 –> 00:25:19,310
Speaker 1: the chance to clerk on the Supreme Court and be

509
00:25:19,330 –> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: in that world and this career as well, because I

510
00:25:21,900 –> 00:25:25,060
Speaker 1: think they’re strangely similar in ways in terms of being

511
00:25:25,240 –> 00:25:28,660
Speaker 1: really fundamentally about having the ability to tell a story

512
00:25:28,700 –> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: that you think is persuasive, whether it’s to a jury

513
00:25:31,000 –> 00:25:33,270
Speaker 1: or to an employee or an investor or a partner.

514
00:25:33,310 –> 00:25:35,830
Speaker 1: And I enjoy storytelling. And this is just the next

515
00:25:36,030 –> 00:25:36,850
Speaker 1: phase of that for me.

516
00:25:37,010 –> 00:25:38,750
Speaker 2: I would think that Justice Souter would have been happy

517
00:25:38,770 –> 00:25:40,030
Speaker 2: to get a bargain, but you know.

518
00:25:41,790 –> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: No, that’s true. He just needs it in paper form,

519
00:25:44,500 –> 00:25:44,900
Speaker 1: but yes.

520
00:25:46,600 –> 00:25:49,570
Speaker 2: Well, maybe that’s like what’s old is new. Somebody was

521
00:25:49,609 –> 00:25:53,930
Speaker 2: saying like coupons are cooler than TikTok these days. And

522
00:25:54,270 –> 00:25:57,170
Speaker 2: nothing gets you more excited about things than necessity. A

523
00:25:57,830 –> 00:26:01,830
Speaker 2: follow-up question to your bravest. How did you spelunk for

524
00:26:01,869 –> 00:26:04,169
Speaker 2: this in the first place? Like you talked about that 10%

525
00:26:04,170 –> 00:26:07,770
Speaker 2: of spelunking and there wasn’t a moment where you’re like,

526
00:26:08,470 –> 00:26:11,270
Speaker 2: all right, honey, I got this great idea. I’m shutting

527
00:26:11,290 –> 00:26:14,409
Speaker 2: it all down and giving up all this privilege and

528
00:26:14,430 –> 00:26:18,770
Speaker 2: your achievements that you’ve still achieved on your own. I

529
00:26:18,810 –> 00:26:21,570
Speaker 2: appreciate your points on privilege, but you still did a

530
00:26:21,609 –> 00:26:23,690
Speaker 2: hell of a lot on your own before doing this.

531
00:26:24,390 –> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: What was that kernel that made you say, you know what?

532
00:26:27,320 –> 00:26:28,970
Speaker 2: I’m going to do all of this. There’s got to

533
00:26:28,990 –> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: be some sort of a something that made you believe.

534
00:26:32,300 –> 00:26:34,260
Speaker 1: I was definitely giving you the short version. The slightly

535
00:26:34,340 –> 00:26:38,090
Speaker 1: more double-click version is as I was practicing law, I

536
00:26:38,210 –> 00:26:40,430
Speaker 1: kept thinking about this poem called The Love Song of J.

537
00:26:40,510 –> 00:26:43,670
Speaker 1: Alfred Prufrock by T.S. Eliot. And it describes a middle-aged

538
00:26:43,710 –> 00:26:46,300
Speaker 1: man who was never willing to bet on himself, was

539
00:26:46,340 –> 00:26:48,929
Speaker 1: never willing to dare to eat a peach, as he

540
00:26:48,970 –> 00:26:51,489
Speaker 1: describes it in the poem. And I could see myself

541
00:26:51,560 –> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: in my mid-40s and my 50s not being able to

542
00:26:55,200 –> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: deal with the regret of not ever having taken a

543
00:26:58,020 –> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: shot at doing something that was truly creative. Being a

544
00:27:00,960 –> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: lawyer is not as creative. It’s very analytical. It’s very

545
00:27:03,859 –> 00:27:06,660
Speaker 1: important service. You have clients, but you’re not creating something

546
00:27:06,680 –> 00:27:09,620
Speaker 1: that without you, whether those are jobs or products, would

547
00:27:09,660 –> 00:27:12,250
Speaker 1: not have existed. And then I was coming back from

548
00:27:12,290 –> 00:27:15,869
Speaker 1: a conference in Brazil, and I was fairly uninspired by

549
00:27:15,890 –> 00:27:18,970
Speaker 1: the conference. It was a legal conference on mining law.

550
00:27:19,690 –> 00:27:23,109
Speaker 1: I was feeling just this feeling of kind of living

551
00:27:23,150 –> 00:27:26,169
Speaker 1: out my life in coffee spoons, as Elliot says. And

552
00:27:26,210 –> 00:27:28,169
Speaker 1: I saw this woman taking a picture of a receipt

553
00:27:28,770 –> 00:27:31,030
Speaker 1: on the plane. And I just started thinking about all

554
00:27:31,090 –> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: the data that’s captured and trapped on this piece of paper.

555
00:27:34,070 –> 00:27:36,010
Speaker 1: And if you could somehow have perfect knowledge of what

556
00:27:36,050 –> 00:27:38,970
Speaker 1: each person bought, i.e. I bought a bag of groceries,

557
00:27:39,050 –> 00:27:41,369
Speaker 1: bad pun, et cetera, you would then be able to

558
00:27:41,410 –> 00:27:44,449
Speaker 1: track that and change the way you sort of cater

559
00:27:44,470 –> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: your advertising and promotion strategy to bring that person from

560
00:27:47,560 –> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: brand A to brand B. And didn’t go to business school,

561
00:27:50,180 –> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: didn’t know really anything about consumer packaged goods companies or

562
00:27:53,840 –> 00:27:56,100
Speaker 1: mobile technology, can’t write a line of code to save

563
00:27:56,140 –> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: my life. But that idea just couldn’t shake that idea.

564
00:27:59,220 –> 00:28:02,020
Speaker 1: And I shared a bunch of other really dumb ideas

565
00:28:02,300 –> 00:28:04,750
Speaker 1: with people. And this is the one that People sort

566
00:28:04,790 –> 00:28:06,970
Speaker 1: of thought, oh, that’s interesting. That might resonate. And then,

567
00:28:07,470 –> 00:28:10,970
Speaker 1: you know, I fundamentally like the idea of trying to

568
00:28:11,030 –> 00:28:13,410
Speaker 1: build things and persuade people to get on board with them.

569
00:28:13,430 –> 00:28:16,430
Speaker 1: I had done that in various other settings in my life.

570
00:28:16,450 –> 00:28:17,909
Speaker 1: You know, I was a stage actor. I was a

571
00:28:18,260 –> 00:28:20,700
Speaker 1: trial lawyer. I was a tour guide. I like that

572
00:28:20,780 –> 00:28:24,260
Speaker 1: kind of challenge. And so when the fear of failure

573
00:28:24,320 –> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: was overcome by the fear of regret is the day

574
00:28:26,840 –> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: that I quit.

575
00:28:27,940 –> 00:28:28,250
Speaker 2: Love it.

576
00:28:28,770 –> 00:28:32,650
Speaker 3: Really inspiring, wildly impressive. I’m going on 10 years of Micmac.

577
00:28:32,710 –> 00:28:35,950
Speaker 3: So what you’ve done in 12 years, it’s pretty amazing.

578
00:28:36,609 –> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: And Sarah and I never knew why it was called Ibotta.

579
00:28:39,340 –> 00:28:39,980
Speaker 3: So now we know.

580
00:28:40,300 –> 00:28:42,340
Speaker 1: I bought a bag of groceries. Yeah, it was originally

581
00:28:42,380 –> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: called Zing. And then one of my investors said that

582
00:28:44,880 –> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: if I didn’t change the name, he was going to

583
00:28:46,620 –> 00:28:49,140
Speaker 1: not invest. He was very worried about getting sued for

584
00:28:49,180 –> 00:28:52,460
Speaker 1: trademark violations by Zinga at the time. So it became

585
00:28:52,540 –> 00:28:55,850
Speaker 1: Ibotta and it was $ 8 on GoDaddy. And Why is

586
00:28:55,910 –> 00:28:56,850
Speaker 1: it called Micmac?

587
00:28:57,050 –> 00:28:59,090
Speaker 3: Actually, I just laughed. I have a very similar story

588
00:28:59,130 –> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: to you. The original company name was Chachki. No one

589
00:29:03,300 –> 00:29:07,100
Speaker 3: could spell it, obviously. And one of my early investors said,

590
00:29:07,380 –> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: you got to change the name. And if you do,

591
00:29:09,100 –> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: I’ll double my investment. So I changed the name.

592
00:29:11,760 –> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: How did you spell Chachki?

593
00:29:14,040 –> 00:29:16,460
Speaker 3: Well, I didn’t spell it the Yiddish way. I spelled

594
00:29:16,500 –> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: it with a C-H instead of a T. Either way,

595
00:29:19,740 –> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: that was not the right name.

596
00:29:20,900 –> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: When I switched to Ibotta, it wasn’t like we were

597
00:29:22,800 –> 00:29:23,380
Speaker 1: home free.

598
00:29:23,400 –> 00:29:23,830
Speaker 3: You know, there was.

599
00:29:24,700 –> 00:29:28,420
Speaker 1: EBOTA, IBOTA. I mean, it’s routinely mispronounced. And I had

600
00:29:28,460 –> 00:29:33,590
Speaker 1: to register every bastardized version of the URL, I-B-O-U-G-H-T-A, the

601
00:29:33,610 –> 00:29:33,990
Speaker 1: whole deal.

602
00:29:34,130 –> 00:29:37,090
Speaker 2: Better then than later. So I appreciate the foresight.

603
00:29:37,170 –> 00:29:37,650
Speaker 3: Yeah.

604
00:29:38,130 –> 00:29:38,330
Speaker 1: Yeah.

605
00:29:38,390 –> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: Thank you, Brian, for everyone who’s listening. download the app.

606
00:29:41,320 –> 00:29:44,540
Speaker 3: I’m sure you’re engaging with Brian’s sales team and we

607
00:29:44,560 –> 00:29:45,820
Speaker 3: look forward to seeing what’s next.

608
00:29:46,020 –> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for leading me today. This was really fun.

609
00:29:50,810 –> 00:29:54,730
Speaker 3: If you like what you heard from Brian at Ibotta,

610
00:29:55,450 –> 00:29:57,650
Speaker 3: and you want to think a lot more about the

611
00:29:57,690 –> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: potential of retail loyalty, especially as it crosses over into media,

612
00:30:03,400 –> 00:30:06,220
Speaker 3: go check out the episode we did with Walmart Connect’s

613
00:30:06,280 –> 00:30:09,580
Speaker 3: Cara Russo, or go check out the episode we did

614
00:30:09,660 –> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: with Roundel’s Sarah Travis. Tell a friend, write a review.

615
00:30:13,810 –> 00:30:14,790
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

616
00:30:14,810 –> 00:30:37,180
Speaker 4: Ibotta. Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at

617
00:30:37,320 –> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 4: Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new

618
00:30:39,940 –> 00:30:43,900
Speaker 4: podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave

619
00:30:43,940 –> 00:30:47,300
Speaker 4: me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once.

620
00:30:47,620 –> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 4: As a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating

621
00:30:50,020 –> 00:30:53,270
Speaker 4: and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

622
00:30:53,470 –> 00:30:56,730
Speaker 4: we’re coming center stage and sharing the mic to experience

623
00:30:56,770 –> 00:30:59,630
Speaker 4: stories of truth, insights, and visions for the future that

624
00:30:59,650 –> 00:31:02,110
Speaker 4: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

625
00:31:02,170 –> 00:31:05,690
Speaker 4: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

626
00:31:05,890 –> 00:31:07,950
Speaker 4: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.