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Speaker 1: You have to be open that if the data tells

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Speaker 1: you to do something different, you act on it. And

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Speaker 1: so there are two conditions that we have really that

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Speaker 1: we set out right from the start. But when it

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Speaker 1: gets down to the granularity, when people are expecting to see,

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Speaker 1: in the case of Special K, perhaps women aged in

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Speaker 1: those age demographic boundaries, and you come back to them

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Speaker 1: and you say, I’ve got a behavioural defined audience, and

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Speaker 1: the age range can be from 20 to 65. It

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Speaker 1: can be men, it can be women. But behaviorally, they’ve

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Speaker 1: got these commonalities that are really unifying them that we

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Speaker 1: think we can address with advertising. So that’s another really

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Speaker 1: important part. You can find a thousand problems, but it’s

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Speaker 1: the role of advertising that I really care about.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce.

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Speaker 3: I’m Rachel Tippegraph, the founder and CEO of Micmac. And

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Speaker 3: I’m Sarah Hofstetter, chairwoman of Profitero Plus, and this is

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Speaker 3: a show that talks about what’s relevant in commerce for

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Speaker 3: the world’s biggest brands. Welcome to Brave Commerce. So Christina,

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Speaker 3: I’ve been meaning to ask you this for about five

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Speaker 3: years now. Why’d you join Profitero?

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Speaker 2: I joined Profitero.

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Speaker 3: For me?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because of Sarah Hofstetter, which is real. You did

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Speaker 2: recruit me in. But the core of why I joined

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Speaker 2: was at the time, Profitero was a data company, a

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Speaker 2: SaaS company, and that was the vast majority, if not

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Speaker 2: all of our revenue. And you identified an opportunity in

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Speaker 2: the market because when you came in about six or

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Speaker 2: eight months before I did, you talked to all of

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Speaker 2: our customers. And what our customers were saying was, where

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Speaker 2: you all are a data company, but we need more.

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Speaker 2: We want you to be our e-commerce people. Help us

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Speaker 2: do more than just data. And I came in because

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Speaker 2: it was this great opportunity to help our customers move

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Speaker 2: from data to insights to action and really understand how

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Speaker 2: do you get the most out of the data sets

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Speaker 2: and the actual insights that can be discerned from tools

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Speaker 2: like Profiterra. That was the main reason I came in.

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Speaker 3: I think one of those things starts with one of

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Speaker 3: our core values as a company, but I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of people think like this, which is just the

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Speaker 3: obvious think like a customer, reverse engineering success from the

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Speaker 3: perspective of the customer. So you joined because you saw

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Speaker 3: all these companies are awash in data, but they don’t

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Speaker 3: necessarily know where or how or what to do next.

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Speaker 3: Our next guest, Louise, or Lou, if you’re close with her,

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Speaker 3: like we are, is an expert at that signal to

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Speaker 3: noise ratio from the inside out. So many times there

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Speaker 3: are companies that come to us and say, hey, we

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Speaker 3: really What we need is more data. I think the

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Speaker 3: world has realized there’s just too freaking much of it.

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Speaker 3: And the question is, so what? Now what? What do

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Speaker 3: I do with this? And it becomes so hard to

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Speaker 3: not just isolate what data do I need and why

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Speaker 3: do I need it, but what am I going to

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Speaker 3: do with it?

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Speaker 2: One of the things that Lou talks a lot about

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Speaker 2: that I really encourage listeners to play close attention to

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Speaker 2: is this balance between the hard skills. And there’s very interesting…

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Speaker 2: innovation in the world of clean rooms, but also the

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Speaker 2: soft skills to get the most out of them. And

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Speaker 2: that’s inclusive of things like speaking the language of the

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Speaker 2: executive team, making sure that you’re bringing all cross-functional teams

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Speaker 2: along with you. One of the things you and I

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Speaker 2: talk a lot about is merchandising success and kind of

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Speaker 2: bringing people along for the journey. And I love that

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Speaker 2: she’s kind of blending both of these things. I think

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Speaker 2: there’s a lot to learn both in terms of leadership lessons,

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Speaker 2: just in general, when there’s a new technology or a

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Speaker 2: new way of thinking, how do you deploy that? And

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Speaker 2: practically speaking, if you’re a marketer and you’re not using

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Speaker 2: some of these technologies, you’re going to start to fall behind.

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Speaker 2: So there’s a lot of meat here.

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Speaker 3: When we get to the final question of what’s the

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Speaker 3: bravest thing you’ve ever done, stick around for the personal one,

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Speaker 3: but I think you just foreshadowed the professional one as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So with that, let’s bring Lou on to the show.

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Speaker 2: Let’s do it.

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Speaker 3: Today, we are happy to have Louise Cosrell. Did I

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Speaker 3: do that okay?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely nailed it. Awesome.

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Speaker 3: Global Senior Director, Insights and Intelligence at Kelanova. Lou, thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for joining us today here live at

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Speaker 3: Grocery Shop. I know.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. There’s a bit of calm

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Speaker 1: in amongst the chaos at the conference, so it’s a

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Speaker 1: joy to be here.

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Speaker 3: The podcast studio has its benefits. You can come back

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Speaker 3: from time to time just for your moment of zen.

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Speaker 3: We’re going to go real deep. real fast. One of

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Speaker 3: the things that has been so remarkable about your career

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Speaker 3: and particularly your more recent roles at Kelanova is tangible proof.

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Speaker 3: Tangible proof that the things that are being done are

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Speaker 3: actually driving business outcomes. And I know that that sounds

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Speaker 3: maybe to somebody who might be newer to our industry

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Speaker 3: like a no duh, and yet it is one of

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Speaker 3: the more complicated things to do. There are so many

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Speaker 3: stakeholders when you have to prove something to be true.

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Speaker 3: When you think about the impact that marketing can have

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Speaker 3: for advertising to drive sales, how did you get your

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Speaker 3: CFO and your executive team aligned with not just the story,

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Speaker 3: but the actual meat behind it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I’ve had the privilege of working in

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Speaker 1: marketing my whole career. And so I’ve run every gambit,

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Speaker 1: every role, and I’ve felt every heartfelt rejection and every joyous,

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Speaker 1: exuberant moment of when success lands. And that journey has

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Speaker 1: taught me, as with all marketers, if you want to

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Speaker 1: have a seat at the table, the executives, you have

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Speaker 1: to speak their language. And the language they speak is

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Speaker 1: sales language. And you can go in with lots of

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Speaker 1: the metrics and broader pieces to complement that story. But

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Speaker 1: at the heart of the business, it has to be

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Speaker 1: about sales. And that’s really one of the most exciting

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Speaker 1: things about clean rooms. It’s not the only way and

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Speaker 1: the only benefit. But what we’re able to do for

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Speaker 1: the very first time in my career is really produce

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Speaker 1: a closed loop sales qualification that says, This happened exclusively

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Speaker 1: because of my advertising. And as a marketer, there is

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Speaker 1: no better feeling than walking in and being able to

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Speaker 1: show to that CFO that lift, that impact in the

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Speaker 1: terms they explicitly want to talk about.

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Speaker 3: For our audience, because some are very familiar with clean rooms,

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Speaker 3: some are still getting into that based on their way

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Speaker 3: that they got into the commerce business. So can you

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Speaker 3: simplify for… Anoub, what’s a clean room and how does

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Speaker 3: it work?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so clean rooms, there’s, as with everything, there’s a

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Speaker 1: broad spectrum of different ways you can use them and

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Speaker 1: have them. Probably a lot of your audience is most

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Speaker 1: familiar with retailer clean rooms, where they give you permission

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Speaker 1: within that tenant to create an audience, an addressable audience.

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Speaker 1: That’s a really exciting part to understand more specifically about

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Speaker 1: the people who are buying your food in their specific store.

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Speaker 1: What’s different about how we’ve approached it is that we

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Speaker 1: actually stood up our own tenants. And so within that,

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Speaker 1: we were able to decide what data came in and

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Speaker 1: we could decide what models we wanted to build in

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Speaker 1: order to prioritize and really reflect the business results that

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Speaker 1: we were looking for. What that also meant is we

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Speaker 1: were able to keep the commercials in line with our

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Speaker 1: commercials because every time you layer in a new data set,

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Speaker 1: you add in a new cost to the business and

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Speaker 1: that impacts your CPM and impacts your ROI. And so

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Speaker 1: we set up our own tenants And within that, one

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Speaker 1: of the pieces I was absolutely adamant about from the

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Speaker 1: start is that we had to be able to measure

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Speaker 1: any impact. And what we love about it is we’re

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Speaker 1: not talking so often in marketing, we’re talking about averages

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Speaker 1: or generals or model data from panels and things like that.

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Speaker 1: But in Addressable, we’re talking millions and millions of records.

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Speaker 1: In this case, which was the UK, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about 25 million records. It’s a wonderful opportunity for AI

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Speaker 1: to come in and step in. and take on and

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Speaker 1: understand the patterns that perhaps you wouldn’t see with the

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Speaker 1: human eye. There’s no way anyone could possibly see what’s

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Speaker 1: going on at that rate. And so we blend lifestyle data,

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Speaker 1: we bring shopping behavior data, and we blend that to

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Speaker 1: pull this bigger picture of who the consumer is in

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Speaker 1: a way that helps us better inform our creative and

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Speaker 1: better inform our media channels as well. And so we

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Speaker 1: did that and we’ve been doing it, but on the

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Speaker 1: journey probably about three years now. And each time the

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Speaker 1: results just get stronger, we understand what’s happening. And what’s

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Speaker 1: great about the results is they don’t just tell you

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Speaker 1: what worked. It tells you who it worked with. So

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Speaker 1: it suddenly starts to become repeatable. And then the joy

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Speaker 1: of the marketer is to figure out why did it

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Speaker 1: work with that group? And so you can really kind

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Speaker 1: of take the whole journey and really geek out on

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Speaker 1: the data that you can get from a clean room

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Speaker 1: that you probably can’t get from a lot of other channels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to pick up on this. So one

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Speaker 2: of the things you’re digging into is, Being data-driven, but

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Speaker 2: then also how do you bring people along for that journey?

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Speaker 2: Something that you might intrinsically understand and believe to be

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Speaker 2: true when you look at the data. It might take

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Speaker 2: other groups, a couple of at-bats, if you will, to

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Speaker 2: really understand it. So can you talk us through, especially

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Speaker 2: through the lens of audiences and like a more general

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Speaker 2: approach that marketers would take is, okay, let’s target women

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Speaker 2: 24 to 44. But you’re obviously getting much more specific

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Speaker 2: based on this methodology that you’ve articulated. How are you

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Speaker 2: bringing people along on that journey with you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so there’s a couple of things. So my role,

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Speaker 1: although we do a lot of work in clean rooms,

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Speaker 1: I actually look at how we embed AI into marketing.

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Speaker 1: And so we do tests constantly across all different brands

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Speaker 1: from strategy to planning, creative media measurement all the time.

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Speaker 1: And there’s two key things that are consistent, whether I’m

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Speaker 1: doing a strategy forecasting or a measurement piece. And the

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Speaker 1: one is that you have to have a leadership that’s

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Speaker 1: open to a different way of doing things. Because if

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Speaker 1: you’re not open to doing different things, then this isn’t

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Speaker 1: going to work. And the second one is you have

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Speaker 1: to be open that if the data tells you to

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Speaker 1: do something different, you act on it. And so there

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Speaker 1: are two conditions that we have really that we set

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Speaker 1: out right from the start. But when it gets down

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Speaker 1: to the granularity, when people are expecting to see, in

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Speaker 1: the case of Special K, perhaps women aged in those

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Speaker 1: age demographic boundaries, and you come back to them and

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Speaker 1: you say, I’ve got a behavioral defined audience, and the

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Speaker 1: age range can be from 20 to 65. It can

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Speaker 1: be men. It can be women. But behaviorally, they’ve got

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Speaker 1: these commonalities that are really unifying them that we think

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Speaker 1: we can address with advertising. That’s another really important part.

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Speaker 1: You can find a thousand problems, but it’s the role

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Speaker 1: of advertising that I really care about. Some of it

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Speaker 1: has to be addressed by price back architecture, some of

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Speaker 1: it by promotional strategy, some by distribution. What is advertising

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Speaker 1: going to solve? And so we go on that journey

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Speaker 1: with them. We take them through. But at no point

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Speaker 1: are we saying, let’s flip the switch. stop doing all

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Speaker 1: that targeting. So we run business as usual targeting alongside

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Speaker 1: clean room targeting, and we measure both in exactly the

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Speaker 1: same way. And then we can compare like for like,

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Speaker 1: how is it performing? So that gives teams a comfort

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Speaker 1: that they’ve not thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

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Speaker 1: They’ve not suddenly gone all in on an unproven model

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Speaker 1: or technology, but they’re systematically testing their way in. And

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Speaker 1: I think one of the other really important parts of

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Speaker 1: this is that This isn’t shining a light on homework

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Speaker 1: that hasn’t been done or something like that. This is

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Speaker 1: the first time marketers will get the opportunity to really

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Speaker 1: see how their advertising is performing. And so you’ve just

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Speaker 1: got to be open and lean in and know that

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Speaker 1: no one’s being judged by any results. And sometimes it

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Speaker 1: works and sometimes it doesn’t. And that’s also okay. And

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Speaker 1: so it’s about creating that culture where everyone’s okay to fail,

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Speaker 1: but fail quickly.

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Speaker 3: As we look at that, one of the things you said,

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Speaker 3: you know, you have to be comfortable if the data

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Speaker 3: tells you, what to do, then you got to do it.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes data can tell lots of different stories. And

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Speaker 3: sometimes you can bend the data to tell a story

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Speaker 3: based on sharing some, but not all. How do you

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Speaker 3: eliminate the bias in the data as cleanly as possible

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Speaker 3: without it Basically, how do you make sure that you

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Speaker 3: take the bias out of the data, but also make

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Speaker 3: sure that it’s there to serve a critical function?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it’s actionable because you can get so much

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Speaker 1: data and it not be actionable. So one of the

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Speaker 1: amazing resources we have at Calanova is we have a

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Speaker 1: team of internal data scientists. And they are empowered and

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Speaker 1: enabled to fully access the data and pull the reports

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Speaker 1: and write the reports in terms of who the audience

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Speaker 1: should be to target. What’s great about that is that

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Speaker 1: they’ve got no skin in the game. They just produce

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Speaker 1: what the models tell them are the best performing. What’s

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Speaker 1: really important is they partner with insights though, because there

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Speaker 1: can be pieces about just we couldn’t either act on

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Speaker 1: or perhaps they’re geographically segmented and they’re just not practical

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Speaker 1: for relaying into a CPM model. And so we work

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Speaker 1: with them on that part. The other part in terms

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Speaker 1: of measurement, that’s all done by a third party. So

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Speaker 1: we’re not on point to put that measurement together. It’s

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Speaker 1: done through a retailer. And the channel and then the

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Speaker 1: third party puts that together. And then they give you

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Speaker 1: the results in that analysis as well. So there’s an

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Speaker 1: independence in that as well. So the starting model is

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Speaker 1: the data science team. I can tell you they’ve got

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Speaker 1: no real sort of strong feelings about who special case

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Speaker 1: should be and no bias in legacy data like our

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Speaker 1: marketers have. And so they will tell you the results

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Speaker 1: as the results come through. And then independent verified measurement

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Speaker 1: of the results on the external piece is really critical

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: I have to imagine a key part of this, kind

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Speaker 2: of linking back to one of the first things you

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Speaker 2: said of speaking the language of the executives. The insights

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Speaker 2: have to be both actionable and tied to driving sales.

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Speaker 2: And then that can be how you really kind of

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Speaker 2: marry these disparate groups of what we’re all trying to

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Speaker 2: achieve the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And, you know, often we talk about this a

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Speaker 1: lot and our CGO, Cherise Hughes, talks about that. Often

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Speaker 1: what’s really important is that everyone has a line behind

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Speaker 1: the one common problem because everyone In very large organizations,

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Speaker 1: it can be easy to, you know, RGM, oh, I

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Speaker 1: know how to solve it with RGM. Oh, it’s distribution.

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Speaker 1: I know how to solve it with distribution. Oh, advertising.

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Speaker 1: I know how to solve it with advertising. And actually

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Speaker 1: getting a unification of what the problem is so that

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Speaker 1: you’re pulling the right levers at the right time in

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Speaker 1: the right sequence is part of that problem. And if

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Speaker 1: you’re all chasing the same metric, that can be one

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Speaker 1: of the amazing things to unlock and create that unification.

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Speaker 1: And so we’re not chasing vanity metrics over here and

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Speaker 1: saying it’s worked over there. We’re all working towards that

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Speaker 1: same piece, which is sales today. And of course, marketing’s

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Speaker 1: got that eye on sales tomorrow as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I’m smirking because my background is in management consulting

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Speaker 2: and I’m kind of a true believer in people respond

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Speaker 2: to incentives. And so, yeah, if you’ve got a hammer,

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Speaker 2: you find a bunch of nails. But if everyone’s kind

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Speaker 2: of operating around a cohesive set of KPIs, it tends

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Speaker 2: to drive better outcomes.

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Speaker 4: 100%, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Would you mind putting a little more meat on the

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Speaker 3: bones with an example? You’ve mentioned Special K a couple

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Speaker 3: of times, but whether it’s Special K or any of

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Speaker 3: the other beautiful brands in your portfolio, anything you feel

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Speaker 3: comfortable sharing with us to put a little bit more

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Speaker 3: visualization into how this all comes to life? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Special K is a really good example, although we’ve

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Speaker 1: just got some fantastic results in from more recently. But

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Speaker 1: Special K in the UK, a premium brand, 2024 arrives,

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Speaker 1: cost of living crisis hits and And we start to

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Speaker 1: see penetration is stable, but volume is declining. Worryingly for

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Speaker 1: a marketer, we see that consideration is at parity with

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Speaker 1: private label. That’s not where you want to be when

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Speaker 1: you’ve got a wonderful legacy brand like Special K. The

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Speaker 1: levers available in that situation, maybe price pack architecture, but

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Speaker 1: it’ll take too long. Promotions would weaken the equity on

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Speaker 1: Special K. And so what we were left with is

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Speaker 1: how can advertising make this immediate impact? The challenge we

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Speaker 1: had is that we had a one-size-fits-all approach. We had

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Speaker 1: one creative, one media target, sent across all the different channels.

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Speaker 1: But consumers weren’t responding in that way. People were responding

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Speaker 1: differently to the cost of living crisis. Some people were

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Speaker 1: trading down. Some people were buying less frequently. Some people

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Speaker 1: were completely left branded products altogether. And so we couldn’t

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Speaker 1: afford that level of waste to go out in our advertising.

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Speaker 1: And so what we wanted to do is find a

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Speaker 1: better way to target our audiences. Special care had no

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Speaker 1: 1P data at this point. So we are not looking

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Speaker 1: at kind of like leveraging 1P data to build this audience,

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Speaker 1: but we’re actually looking at it. How can we find

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Speaker 1: addressable data sets? There isn’t one addressable data set that

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Speaker 1: would answer that. And so we had to build together

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Speaker 1: different audiences, different data sets to build a better picture.

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Speaker 1: We identified different sizable cohorts. And that’s the key thing

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Speaker 1: as well. We’re not talking micro segments here. We’re talking

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Speaker 1: big segments. And we tailored the creative. We actually tailored

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Speaker 1: the media plan around the audience, which is so often

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Speaker 1: done a different way. How do I find this audience

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Speaker 1: on this platform? It’s no, how do I find the

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Speaker 1: right platform for this audience? And then we deployed that

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Speaker 1: and then measured that through the closed loop system with

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Speaker 1: retailer data and platform data on exposure. And that’s where

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Speaker 1: we were able to see The special case case of 36%

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Speaker 1: sales uplift versus the control, which was a phenomenal result

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Speaker 1: for us to get.

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Speaker 3: Within that, to pick a little further, there’s so many

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Speaker 3: different components to what you just said, which is why

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Speaker 3: we started this whole conversation in clean rooms in the

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Speaker 3: first place. There’s audience segmentation. There’s also how the product

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Speaker 3: shows up relative to its competition. So when you think

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Speaker 3: about there’s almost like three Ps that go into this, people, product, placement.

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Speaker 3: As you think about how those all work together organizationally,

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Speaker 3: You’re highlighting where the opportunity is. How do you get

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Speaker 3: the people responsible for the people, the product, and the

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Speaker 3: placement to work cohesively to make that happen?

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. And that is certainly a journey on the

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Speaker 1: maturity curve with clean rooms. What started out very much

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Speaker 1: when we began this journey three years ago was it’s

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Speaker 1: a tactical tool. It was a tactical tool to find

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Speaker 1: a better audience. And then you start to see these

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Speaker 1: insights come through and you’re like, this is, we need

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Speaker 1: to bring this upstream. And so where we are now

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Speaker 1: is that it’s definitely shaping creative briefs. It’s shaping media

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Speaker 1: strategies and it’s shaping our measurement. The next evolution of

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Speaker 1: that is absolutely start to cross commercial domains. That’s on

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Speaker 1: our roadmap, but we’re not there yet. But because I

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Speaker 1: think one of the biggest things you can do is

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Speaker 1: you can get fantastic results. You know, you can play

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Speaker 1: a system to your point. You could layer in some

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Speaker 1: bias and you could get an amazing result. But unless

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Speaker 1: you can actually embed a change… It isn’t going to sustain.

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Speaker 1: And so when we build our programs, we look across

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Speaker 1: six different metrics. Business results take the biggest weight of that.

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Speaker 1: But also we look at how did it impact people?

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Speaker 1: People still like their jobs at the end of this

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Speaker 1: process or do they want to quit and walk and

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Speaker 1: go home, right? That’s a really important part of it.

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Speaker 1: We also look at process. Does it fit into how

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Speaker 1: we run as a business? to your point, when we

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Speaker 1: start bringing in cross-commercial domains, it’s a big shift to

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Speaker 1: our process. And are we ready? And do we have

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Speaker 1: to change management in place to try and do that?

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Speaker 1: We look at the partner. Was the partner a good fit?

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Speaker 1: Clean rooms, like I said, they’re a different spectrum. You

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Speaker 1: can get a fully managed service to bring your own

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Speaker 1: data into somewhere in between. Did that really fit? Did

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Speaker 1: the technology sort of adapt? And did we execute like

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Speaker 1: we said we did? Did the data, was it commensurate

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Speaker 1: with our sort of commercials? And so whilst the The

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Speaker 1: business results are really important. The behavior change is really

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Speaker 1: critical because otherwise you can’t sustain it. And so we

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Speaker 1: have to take it at a pace that matches where

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Speaker 1: the business is in the organization. And that’s how we’re

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Speaker 1: kind of layering it in and bringing it through.

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Speaker 2: I think it’s really helpful to kind of hear you

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Speaker 2: articulate this crawl, walk, run approach of the massive organizational

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Speaker 2: change required to squeeze all the juice out of this initiative,

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Speaker 2: if we can get specific. When you think about the

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Speaker 2: future of personalized marketing, where do you think it’s going?

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Speaker 2: And if you’re a marketer listening to this, what do

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Speaker 2: you think is most critical for your role within that

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Speaker 2: ecosystem in this broader evolution in terms of what’s on

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Speaker 2: the horizon?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if I was a marketer listening to this,

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Speaker 1: I think the key is it’s very easy to be

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Speaker 1: seduced by AI right now. It’s very easy to get

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Speaker 1: caught up in buzzwords and sort of, you know, the

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Speaker 1: promise of this Nirvana state that everything can be automated

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Speaker 1: and personalized and things like that. I’ve only had an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to be at a few of the talks so far,

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Speaker 1: but I feel there’s a pragmatism that’s coming into some

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Speaker 1: of the talks around AI right now. So where we

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Speaker 1: have been historically has been this very static definition of

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Speaker 1: a consumer, that one-size-fits-all approach. Where we’re moving to is

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Speaker 1: a more dynamic picture of who the consumer is. But

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Speaker 1: the reality around potentially agentic AI consumption building consumers and

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Speaker 1: profiles signals based on browsing history, basket composition, perhaps lapse signals.

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Speaker 1: That’s all possible, but it actually requires fundamental shifts in

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Speaker 1: media because media is, you’re rewarded for scale and reach.

420
00:20:55,950 –> 00:20:58,619
Speaker 1: So if you go down to that one-to-one personalization, your

421
00:20:59,260 –> 00:21:02,659
Speaker 1: CPM will probably be no longer commercially viable. And it

422
00:21:02,820 –> 00:21:06,940
Speaker 1: also relies on retailers releasing a data set that would

423
00:21:06,960 –> 00:21:08,700
Speaker 1: be allowed to be commingled with other data. So you

424
00:21:08,720 –> 00:21:12,109
Speaker 1: could create a consumer purchase graph. And that’s probably not

425
00:21:12,140 –> 00:21:14,550
Speaker 1: going to happen at the moment in the foreseeable future.

426
00:21:15,070 –> 00:21:17,530
Speaker 1: So where I see it right now is we’re at

427
00:21:17,550 –> 00:21:21,270
Speaker 1: a really interesting stage. Clean rooms are still absolutely in

428
00:21:21,290 –> 00:21:23,810
Speaker 1: their infancy. We talk to a lot of other brands

429
00:21:24,290 –> 00:21:26,570
Speaker 1: and they’re still learning and trying to work out how

430
00:21:26,609 –> 00:21:29,980
Speaker 1: do we do this. The key is that you’ve got

431
00:21:30,000 –> 00:21:32,850
Speaker 1: to meet the consumer where they are. and meet their expectations.

432
00:21:32,869 –> 00:21:34,810
Speaker 1: And that’s the number one thing a marketer has to do.

433
00:21:35,300 –> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: And whether that’s hyper-personalized, whether that’s dynamically personalized, whether that’s

434
00:21:39,300 –> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: static personalized, that’s where you’ve got to meet them. And

435
00:21:41,940 –> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 1: so it’s a journey. And I think we are really

436
00:21:45,040 –> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 1: leaning into this kind of promised land, which is very exciting,

437
00:21:48,119 –> 00:21:50,140
Speaker 1: but with a hint of pragmatism on top.

438
00:21:50,630 –> 00:21:52,810
Speaker 2: One thing we talk about a lot is, excuse me,

439
00:21:52,830 –> 00:21:55,210
Speaker 2: like what needs to be true. And so through the

440
00:21:55,250 –> 00:21:56,770
Speaker 2: lens of you have all these tools, but what needs

441
00:21:56,810 –> 00:21:58,889
Speaker 2: to be true for those tools to be actionable? I

442
00:21:58,930 –> 00:22:01,090
Speaker 2: think you just hit a number of things that are

443
00:22:01,130 –> 00:22:03,169
Speaker 2: worth studying to make sure that you don’t get trapped

444
00:22:03,210 –> 00:22:06,070
Speaker 2: by the shiny object syndrome of what might be out there.

445
00:22:06,090 –> 00:22:07,690
Speaker 2: If you can’t take action on it to drive sales,

446
00:22:07,770 –> 00:22:08,469
Speaker 2: it’s not relevant yet.

447
00:22:08,690 –> 00:22:13,149
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly that. And insights that are actionable, audiences that

448
00:22:13,250 –> 00:22:17,310
Speaker 1: are big enough, creative that warrants a different creative. I mean,

449
00:22:17,330 –> 00:22:21,990
Speaker 1: that’s really important as well. So it’s still, we’re definitely,

450
00:22:22,170 –> 00:22:24,580
Speaker 1: you know, still learning on this journey. And every time

451
00:22:24,619 –> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: we do one, we get smarter, which is like really

452
00:22:26,840 –> 00:22:30,020
Speaker 1: fulfilling and But we’re certainly just scratching the surface on

453
00:22:30,060 –> 00:22:31,620
Speaker 1: what the potential is for CPG.

454
00:22:32,040 –> 00:22:35,610
Speaker 3: Sounds great. Well, on that note, we have to ask

455
00:22:35,640 –> 00:22:38,670
Speaker 3: you our famous last question. What’s the bravest thing you’ve

456
00:22:38,710 –> 00:22:39,050
Speaker 3: ever done?

457
00:22:39,070 –> 00:22:42,630
Speaker 1: I know I was prepped for this one. I think

458
00:22:43,170 –> 00:22:47,710
Speaker 1: professionally the bravest thing was walking into a global meeting

459
00:22:47,800 –> 00:22:50,980
Speaker 1: with our executives, telling them that we had not had

460
00:22:51,160 –> 00:22:54,900
Speaker 1: stellar results on a clean room and asking for more money.

461
00:22:54,920 –> 00:23:00,369
Speaker 1: That was a pretty… They loved that. That was a

462
00:23:00,410 –> 00:23:04,389
Speaker 1: really strong move. Personally, I’ve been fortunate to travel a

463
00:23:04,530 –> 00:23:06,390
Speaker 1: lot around the world and I was trying to rack

464
00:23:06,430 –> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: my brains on what would be the best thing to say.

465
00:23:08,460 –> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: And I think probably the bravest one, because it was

466
00:23:10,660 –> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: the most unknown, is that my husband and I spent

467
00:23:13,359 –> 00:23:17,129
Speaker 1: a summer living with the nomadic eagle hunters in Mongolia.

468
00:23:18,280 –> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 3: I haven’t heard that one.

469
00:23:19,340 –> 00:23:23,740
Speaker 1: Yeah, that’s new. We’ve done at least 250 episodes.

470
00:23:23,880 –> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: You win.

471
00:23:24,560 –> 00:23:25,139
Speaker 3: Nope.

472
00:23:25,220 –> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 4: Nope.

473
00:23:25,460 –> 00:23:26,060
Speaker 3: That’s a new one.

474
00:23:26,240 –> 00:23:26,740
Speaker 1: Check the box.

475
00:23:26,940 –> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

476
00:23:27,340 –> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: So we flew to Ulaanbaatar and we headed west as

477
00:23:31,540 –> 00:23:34,930
Speaker 1: far as Mongolia will go, like a thousand miles. And

478
00:23:35,170 –> 00:23:38,050
Speaker 1: we got in a car. And Mongolian culture is very

479
00:23:38,109 –> 00:23:41,250
Speaker 1: hospitable by nature. It’s not uncommon just to knock on

480
00:23:41,290 –> 00:23:43,129
Speaker 1: someone’s door. It could be 10 o’clock at night. They

481
00:23:43,150 –> 00:23:45,229
Speaker 1: could be asleep. they’ll open the door, they’ll make you

482
00:23:45,250 –> 00:23:46,790
Speaker 1: a meal and then you carry on on your journey.

483
00:23:46,810 –> 00:23:49,649
Speaker 1: And so we drove hours and hours to reach the

484
00:23:49,690 –> 00:23:52,090
Speaker 1: family that we were staying with and we stayed with

485
00:23:52,109 –> 00:23:54,350
Speaker 1: them as part of their sort of lifestyle. And it

486
00:23:54,390 –> 00:24:00,100
Speaker 1: was an incredibly enlightening, very humbling, really incredible way to

487
00:24:00,140 –> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: kind of like connect into nature and see a lifestyle

488
00:24:02,340 –> 00:24:04,260
Speaker 1: that you just may never have seen before. But it

489
00:24:04,320 –> 00:24:07,980
Speaker 1: was absolutely unknown. I mean, not like we could speak

490
00:24:08,020 –> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: the language, not like we had any sort of prior

491
00:24:10,619 –> 00:24:12,500
Speaker 1: knowledge of what this experience would be like. We just

492
00:24:12,700 –> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: got in the car and with our translator and we

493
00:24:15,560 –> 00:24:18,869
Speaker 1: headed out and there were some amazing experiences on that

494
00:24:18,930 –> 00:24:20,590
Speaker 1: way as well.

495
00:24:20,770 –> 00:24:20,930
Speaker 4: Wow.

496
00:24:21,070 –> 00:24:22,110
Speaker 3: I need another podcast.

497
00:24:22,170 –> 00:24:22,510
Speaker 4: Yes.

498
00:24:24,100 –> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: We should have spent the last 30 minutes on this

499
00:24:25,859 –> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: is my realization.

500
00:24:27,820 –> 00:24:31,180
Speaker 3: I have to ask one question. What was the catalyst

501
00:24:31,200 –> 00:24:33,270
Speaker 3: for that. It feels like you open up like an

502
00:24:33,410 –> 00:24:36,590
Speaker 3: Atlas Obscura and you just point and it’s just there.

503
00:24:36,710 –> 00:24:39,030
Speaker 3: So how did you even end up here?

504
00:24:39,530 –> 00:24:41,609
Speaker 1: So I think we had read about or seen a show.

505
00:24:41,670 –> 00:24:45,330
Speaker 1: There’s an amazing festival they have in Mongolia with the

506
00:24:45,410 –> 00:24:49,190
Speaker 1: eagle hunters. This is an incredible traditional nomadic farming community.

507
00:24:49,280 –> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: And these golden eagles are just their livelihood and their pride.

508
00:24:53,300 –> 00:24:55,020
Speaker 1: You know, they’ll make a connection with them for 10

509
00:24:55,020 –> 00:24:57,139
Speaker 1: or 12 years. They’re just part of who they are.

510
00:24:57,859 –> 00:25:00,340
Speaker 1: And I think we’d seen this program and we’re like,

511
00:25:00,359 –> 00:25:03,260
Speaker 1: this is something we know nothing about and can’t even

512
00:25:03,300 –> 00:25:06,420
Speaker 1: begin to imagine. And then we started looking into it

513
00:25:06,900 –> 00:25:09,510
Speaker 1: and we were like, let’s do it. Let’s go and

514
00:25:09,630 –> 00:25:11,490
Speaker 1: we’ll go and live in it. Well, they actually were

515
00:25:11,510 –> 00:25:13,470
Speaker 1: very generous. They said we could live in the yurt

516
00:25:13,530 –> 00:25:16,570
Speaker 1: with them, with their family. And the culture is very

517
00:25:16,609 –> 00:25:19,129
Speaker 1: hierarchical as well in terms of where you can sleep

518
00:25:19,290 –> 00:25:21,950
Speaker 1: and sit. And we did say we’ll sleep in a tent.

519
00:25:22,060 –> 00:25:24,939
Speaker 1: And so we did sort of step away from that.

520
00:25:24,980 –> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, we were out one day and

521
00:25:28,080 –> 00:25:30,699
Speaker 1: we were by a lake and someone said, you know,

522
00:25:31,300 –> 00:25:34,580
Speaker 1: my daughter’s getting married, please come to our wedding this afternoon.

523
00:25:35,240 –> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: And we found ourselves at a traditional nomadic Mongolian wedding.

524
00:25:39,580 –> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: And we were the honored guests because, again, the hierarchical

525
00:25:43,460 –> 00:25:46,590
Speaker 1: structure is how far you’ve traveled makes you more important.

526
00:25:46,640 –> 00:25:49,530
Speaker 1: And suddenly we’re at the top table. And it was

527
00:25:49,590 –> 00:25:53,290
Speaker 1: the experience like no other. I wonder what that registry

528
00:25:53,330 –> 00:25:53,630
Speaker 1: was like.

529
00:25:53,710 –> 00:25:54,190
Speaker 3: Yeah.

530
00:25:55,490 –> 00:25:55,810
Speaker 4: Yeah.

531
00:25:56,720 –> 00:25:59,290
Speaker 1: When I say top table, I may be overselling what

532
00:25:59,310 –> 00:26:02,190
Speaker 1: the situation was. So, but it was, um, yeah, it was,

533
00:26:02,750 –> 00:26:05,590
Speaker 1: it was phenomenal. And now, you know, once you’ve experienced

534
00:26:05,609 –> 00:26:09,130
Speaker 1: things like that and you’ve, you’ve certainly lived a nutrition

535
00:26:09,170 –> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: diet that’s very different to your own, um, you sort

536
00:26:12,020 –> 00:26:14,340
Speaker 1: of feel like you can take on almost anything, really.

537
00:26:14,420 –> 00:26:15,699
Speaker 1: So it was a great experience.

538
00:26:15,920 –> 00:26:18,260
Speaker 3: I wonder what the total addressable market for Special K

539
00:26:18,280 –> 00:26:19,859
Speaker 3: would be in Western Mongolia.

540
00:26:19,900 –> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 4: I probably could have.

541
00:26:20,380 –> 00:26:23,450
Speaker 1: Packed it in my backpack. It’s a great sampling opportunity.

542
00:26:25,230 –> 00:26:28,230
Speaker 3: Well, Lou, I would say there is something that is

543
00:26:28,270 –> 00:26:30,570
Speaker 3: consistent in the entire theme of this podcast. Even if

544
00:26:30,590 –> 00:26:33,170
Speaker 3: this audience cannot necessarily piece it together, allow me to

545
00:26:33,240 –> 00:26:36,270
Speaker 3: wrap it all up. It’s curiosity. You have an insatiable

546
00:26:36,310 –> 00:26:38,570
Speaker 3: curiosity about you and it allows you to be a

547
00:26:38,570 –> 00:26:41,229
Speaker 3: phenomenal marketer and a phenomenal leader. So thank you so

548
00:26:41,250 –> 00:26:42,250
Speaker 3: much for joining us today.

549
00:26:42,390 –> 00:26:44,050
Speaker 1: Gosh, thank you. No, thank you very much for having me.

550
00:26:44,050 –> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you, Lou.

551
00:26:46,130 –> 00:26:48,250
Speaker 3: I don’t know if I’m ever going to find somebody

552
00:26:48,270 –> 00:26:53,379
Speaker 3: to top that bravest thing. That is pretty absolutely out there.

553
00:26:53,970 –> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: With that in mind, if you liked this episode and

554
00:26:57,080 –> 00:27:03,780
Speaker 3: you’re looking for more, I have no other Eagle episodes. However…

555
00:27:04,880 –> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: If you want to hear more about what Kelanova’s been

556
00:27:06,660 –> 00:27:09,580
Speaker 3: up to, actually at Shop Talk Europe, we had a

557
00:27:10,600 –> 00:27:15,310
Speaker 3: live recording with Loretta Franks. And before that, we had

558
00:27:15,430 –> 00:27:18,790
Speaker 3: an episode with Julie Bowerman at Kelanova. So if you

559
00:27:18,810 –> 00:27:21,450
Speaker 3: want to get all Kelanova’d out, there are some episodes

560
00:27:21,490 –> 00:27:23,450
Speaker 3: for you to listen to. If you like what you heard,

561
00:27:24,050 –> 00:27:26,449
Speaker 3: please drop us a line and let us know. Leave

562
00:27:26,490 –> 00:27:29,690
Speaker 3: a review. If you really enjoyed it, share it. Sharing

563
00:27:29,790 –> 00:27:30,290
Speaker 3: is caring.

564
00:27:30,910 –> 00:27:44,330
Speaker 1: We’ll see you soon. Thank you.

565
00:27:53,530 –> 00:27:57,490
Speaker 4: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

566
00:27:57,530 –> 00:28:00,290
Speaker 4: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

567
00:28:00,350 –> 00:28:03,790
Speaker 4: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

568
00:28:03,810 –> 00:28:07,510
Speaker 4: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

569
00:28:07,550 –> 00:28:09,850
Speaker 4: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

570
00:28:09,930 –> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 4: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

571
00:28:13,260 –> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

572
00:28:16,560 –> 00:28:19,429
Speaker 4: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

573
00:28:19,450 –> 00:28:21,909
Speaker 4: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

574
00:28:21,970 –> 00:28:25,500
Speaker 4: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

575
00:28:25,700 –> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.