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Speaker 1: Notice I wouldn’t start with the media vehicle and the budgeting, Rachel.

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Speaker 1: Business school professors love the two by two. So I’m

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Speaker 1: going to say, what are questions that are more frequently

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Speaker 1: asked in the zero moment versus infrequently asked? And which

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Speaker 1: of those do I have a stronger right to win

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Speaker 1: and a weaker right to win? So now I’ve got

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Speaker 1: my stronger right to win more frequently asked. And now

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Speaker 1: I’m going to say, where are people asking those and

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Speaker 1: answering those? And if it, in fact, is on Lowe’s

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Speaker 1: or Dollar General Retail Media Network, or if it’s on TikTok,

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Speaker 1: that’s then in proportion where I would start to think

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Speaker 1: about allocating my assets, ERGs, budget, staff, resources, etc.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce. I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

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Speaker 3: And I’m Rachel Tippegraph. And this is a show that

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Speaker 3: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah,

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Speaker 3: I feel like we should spend this episode confusing listeners

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Speaker 3: with acronyms, industry acronyms.

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Speaker 2: Well, it’s different than the ones we usually use, but

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Speaker 2: it’s actually surprising to me that we haven’t used this before.

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Speaker 2: Because when we talk to practitioners as guests, we end

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Speaker 2: up talking about PDPs and CPCs.

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Speaker 3: And now UCPs.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Well, we could be talking to people on Amazon and

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Speaker 2: we can talk about crapping out or ASINs. But today

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Speaker 2: we’re going to talk about something that was invented only,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe 20 years ago, but really changed the

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Speaker 2: way account planners and brand planners go about thinking about

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Speaker 2: the entire consumer journey. And that is the zero moment

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Speaker 2: of truth or more affectionately known as ZMOT. And for

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Speaker 2: those of you who are on the other side of 50,

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Speaker 2: if you were in school and you were learning about

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Speaker 2: brand planning, you would learn about your first moment of

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Speaker 2: truth and your second moment of truth. But what the

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Speaker 2: dawn of the internet and particularly search brought us is

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Speaker 2: the ZMOT, the point where you actually, before you ever

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Speaker 2: get exposed to the brand, that it shows up for

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Speaker 2: you before you even.

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Speaker 1: Expect it to. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Think about your own social media behaviors. You’re on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: You were having a conversation with your spouse and boom,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden that office chair was there that

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Speaker 3: you never searched for. The zero moment of truth. And

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Speaker 3: today we are going to have the creator, the person

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Speaker 3: who coined this zero moment of truth, which was how

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Speaker 3: many years.

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Speaker 1: Ago, Sarah?

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Speaker 2: I think it was a little more than 20 or

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Speaker 2: maybe it was about 20, but it was a while ago.

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Speaker 2: And it was through the lens of Google, which is

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Speaker 2: where Jim was working at the time. But I think

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Speaker 2: that the way that it has evolved and the way

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Speaker 2: consumers have evolved has changed the breadth of what that

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Speaker 2: actually means.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And so it feels so apt to bring Jim onto

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Speaker 3: the show to talk about what zero moment of truth

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Speaker 3: means and really the AI era that we’re living in.

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Speaker 3: So without further ado, let’s hear from him.

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Speaker 2: Somebody who has had a opportunity to work with some

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Speaker 2: of the biggest brands and now a teach the next

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Speaker 2: generation of leaders is Jim Lesinski, clinical professor of marketing

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Speaker 2: at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. Try to say

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Speaker 2: that fast. It does not work. But more importantly, one

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Speaker 2: of the OGs of digital marketing and brand discovery in

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Speaker 2: this millennia. Jim, I am so thrilled that you agreed

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Speaker 2: to join us on the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: Welcome. Yeah, my pleasure. Hi, Sarah. Hi, Rachel. Great to

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Speaker 1: be with you today.

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Speaker 2: Let’s go into what was so OG. And at least

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Speaker 2: for me, having been at 360i in the early 2000s,

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Speaker 2: one of the most probably famous acronyms that we use,

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Speaker 2: and there were so many with SEM and SEO and

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Speaker 2: everything like that, but you coined the term ZMOT at

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Speaker 2: a time when search was the primary way that consumers

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Speaker 2: informed decisions. Zero moment of truth for ZMOT. for those

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Speaker 2: of you who were born after the year 2000, if

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Speaker 2: you were defining it today, what would you change given

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Speaker 2: all the different mechanisms of discovery?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so a quick refresh of the concept for your viewers,

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Speaker 1: for your listeners. What we identified then, and we’ll talk

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Speaker 1: about is continue to be relevant today, is that there’s

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Speaker 1: an important moment in consumer path to purchase decision-making, consumer journeys,

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Speaker 1: as we call it, that happens after stimulus, but before

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Speaker 1: what was then and now known as the first moment

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Speaker 1: of truth. So stimulus can either be external or internal.

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Speaker 1: So I don’t know, I get a flat tire. I

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Speaker 1: now need new tires. What’s a good brand of tires, right?

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Speaker 1: So that’s an internal stimulus. On the other hand, an

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Speaker 1: external stimulus can be, I might see a TV commercial for,

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Speaker 1: I don’t know, Michelin or Bridgestone tires. That makes me

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Speaker 1: then think, oh, maybe I should consider new tires, right?

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Speaker 1: So some external or internal stimulus happens. And then historically,

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Speaker 1: that would move to the first moment of truth. coined

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Speaker 1: by Procter & Gamble. A.G. Lafley wrote about this in

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Speaker 1: his great book. But that would be, you would go

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Speaker 1: to the tire shop or to your car dealer or

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Speaker 1: to the corner garage, and you would ask the fellow

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Speaker 1: there or the woman there, like, hey, what kind of

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Speaker 1: tires do you recommend? And then you would consummate the

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Speaker 1: deal and you would buy the tires in that first

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Speaker 1: moment of truth. And so, you know, we would always

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Speaker 1: talk a lot in retail about and commerce, e-commerce, as

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Speaker 1: you guys well know, about like, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: to kind of create the demand with the stimulus and

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Speaker 1: then you have to capture the demand, win at the shelf, right?

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Speaker 1: Like win in that first moment at the point of sale.

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Speaker 1: But we started to identify, you know, in that kind

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Speaker 1: of middle, early 2000s, that it wasn’t so simple, right?

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Speaker 1: That there was actually something happening before the first moment,

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Speaker 1: first moment minus one, why we called it zero moment.

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Speaker 1: And And that is that, you know, people were getting

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Speaker 1: information after they thought about or decided they needed to

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Speaker 1: new tires, but before they went to the tire shop.

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Speaker 1: Search was one way to do that. Obviously, early forms

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Speaker 1: of social media was a way to do that. But

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Speaker 1: by the way, that’s not anything new, right? Like those

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Speaker 1: of us old enough, remember, if you were going to

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Speaker 1: go on a vacation to Rome, you’d go to the

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Speaker 1: library and you’d check out the Michelin Guide to Rome

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Speaker 1: and read about the hotels before you would book the hotel.

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Speaker 1: That was zero moment analog behavior, right? Or maybe even

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Speaker 1: if you roll back the clock, Martha Stewart and Oprah

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Speaker 1: had their lists of good things, right? That was zero

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Speaker 1: moment before you went to JCPenney’s to actually buy the thing.

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Speaker 1: We did a whole bunch of research that showed that

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Speaker 1: this was real and growing and prominent and important. That’s

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Speaker 1: what prompted us to do that. We should probably just

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Speaker 1: end that little monologue lecture speech, sorry, by saying, Sure,

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Speaker 1: that might drive you to purchase and you buy the thing,

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Speaker 1: but we all shouldn’t forget the second moment of truth,

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Speaker 1: which is when you take the thing home to use it,

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Speaker 1: does it actually deliver on all of the brand promises?

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Speaker 1: And so that’s sort of the quick arc of it then.

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Speaker 1: And we can talk much more about it, but obviously

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Speaker 1: it continues, I’d argue, growing in importance today.

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Speaker 3: You talked a lot about what the media environments and

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Speaker 3: discovery environments once were. We’re living in unprecedented times. there’s

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Speaker 3: more fragmentation in consumer discovery than ever before. So where

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Speaker 3: do you suspect the zero moments of truth happen? Like

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Speaker 3: right now, Q2, 2026 for consumers.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I mean, no doubt search still matters. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had a conversation the other day about pogs with

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Speaker 1: a chief marketing officer and she goes, what’s pogs? I said,

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Speaker 1: plain old Google search. Billions of these happen, right? Like, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that still matters. And, you know, if you’re not above

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Speaker 1: the fold on the first page, like at 360i days, right,

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Speaker 1: or performance days, you’re still not in the zero moment

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Speaker 1: conversation then or now. Obviously, social and social and mobile

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Speaker 1: kind of interconnected have grown since then. Maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the networks have changed. Now we talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: Reddit and we talk about TikTok and Instagram and, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of those things and who knows what the next

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Speaker 1: wave of social networks will be. But I think that’s

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Speaker 1: obviously hugely grown in importance. And I think most marketers

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Speaker 1: understand this. And, you know, as a result, some kind

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Speaker 1: of combination of Google properties and meta properties often anchor, right,

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Speaker 1: like their plan to win the zero moment of truth.

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Speaker 1: So those for sure. I would also say that there

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Speaker 1: are I don’t know. Do we want to really, Rachel,

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Speaker 1: call these emerging or emergent? But we can talk about LLMs.

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Speaker 1: We could talk about retail media networks. Oh, by the way,

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Speaker 1: plain old human to human word of mouth mattered 100

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Speaker 1: years ago, 25 years ago. And we shouldn’t forget that

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Speaker 1: that matters today. And then, you know, maybe a form

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Speaker 1: of amplified word of mouth are both influencers and And

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Speaker 1: then micro, and I guess we’re now talking about nano

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Speaker 1: influencers as well, right? Like, oh, you’re going to Rome?

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you where not to stay and where

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Speaker 1: to stay.

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Speaker 3: Rome is getting a lot of airtime right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, right? Of course.

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Speaker 3: I’m a CMO, and I’m thinking about the zero moment

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Speaker 3: of truth bias from the show of being focused on commerce.

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Speaker 3: We get a lot of CMOs coming on here where

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Speaker 3: they talk about the pressures that they feel from retailers to…

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Speaker 3: continue to invest in retail media networks and retail media

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Speaker 3: networks positioning themselves as zero moments of truth. If I

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Speaker 3: want to think about budget allocation and zero moments of truth,

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Speaker 3: like how should I go about this?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think the disciplined way to go

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Speaker 1: about this, some might even say scientific way, is to

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Speaker 1: start by identifying what are those zero moments for my brand.

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Speaker 1: And there are, you know, sort of proprietary, internal, sophisticated

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Speaker 1: ways that a brand can do that, commissioning their own research, ethnographies,

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Speaker 1: focus groups, et cetera. And or, There are kind of

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Speaker 1: what our British friends would call cheap and cheerful ways

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Speaker 1: to do this. A tool that I’ve always loved is

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Speaker 1: answer the public. So you go to answer the public

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Speaker 1: and you put in, you know, lawnmowers to change our category. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, it gives you that lovely like flower, daisy,

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Speaker 1: tulip wheel of like a thousand questions. Well, those questions, right,

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Speaker 1: are all zero moment questions. So now you start to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: am I as a brand, if I’m a chief marketing officer,

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Speaker 1: am I well positioned to answer those questions? Like, do

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Speaker 1: I have content? Do I have actual answers? Do I

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Speaker 1: have products that solve those? And then… Where are people

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Speaker 1: asking those questions and going for their answers? So notice

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Speaker 1: I wouldn’t start with the media vehicle and the budgeting, Rachel.

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Speaker 1: Business school professors love the two by two. So I’m

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Speaker 1: going to say, what are questions that are more frequently

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Speaker 1: asked in the zero moment versus infrequently asked? And which

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Speaker 1: of those do I have a stronger right to win

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Speaker 1: and a weaker right to win? So now I’ve got

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Speaker 1: my stronger right to win more frequently asked. And now

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Speaker 1: I’m going to say, where are people asking those and

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Speaker 1: answering those? And if it in fact is on Lowe’s

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Speaker 1: or Dollar General Retail Media Network, or if it’s on TikTok,

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Speaker 1: That’s then in proportion where I would start to think

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Speaker 1: about allocating my assets, ergs, budget, staff, resources, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: You just dropped a million names of like different ways

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Speaker 2: of thinking, channels, platforms. No, no, no, nothing to apologize for.

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Speaker 2: It’s actually, it’s bringing the complexity to life, doing so

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Speaker 2: through the lens of a journey, which makes a ton

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Speaker 2: of sense. But something that’s like totally screwed up the journey,

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Speaker 2: I guess, if you will, is AI marketing. On the

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Speaker 2: one hand, there’s, you know, obviously every marketing platform and

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Speaker 2: such is AI-ifying itself, if you will. A lot of

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Speaker 2: that is focused on content and animation and almost seeing

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Speaker 2: like just another floor being added to the silos of

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Speaker 2: each different platform that exists in the world. Where do

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Speaker 2: you think AI can meaningfully improve decision-making, not just improving

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Speaker 2: on the executional side?

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Speaker 1: We’re seeing AI emerge to help decision-making both on the

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Speaker 1: consumer side as well as on the brand marketer side.

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Speaker 1: Good marketers start from external back in, from the consumer back.

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Speaker 1: So let’s start our answer to your excellent question, Sarah, there.

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Speaker 1: So consumers are increasingly learning how to use these tools

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Speaker 1: and whether and when to trust these tools to help

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Speaker 1: them get answers to those kind of zero moments. So

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Speaker 1: it may be as simple as AI overviews in Google

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Speaker 1: is often a first exposure for folks or Gemini and

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Speaker 1: Gemini live, by the way, is a eye opener. When

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Speaker 1: I showed my 85 year old mother that when she

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Speaker 1: had a plumbing problem, you could Turn the camera on

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Speaker 1: your phone, let it see the pipes under the sink

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Speaker 1: and talk to it about the problem, right? And then say,

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Speaker 1: what do I need here and who should I call, right?

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Speaker 1: That’s a zero moment, right? So it could be that.

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Speaker 2: How did that go? Just unpack that little story. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: First of all, she was sort of wowed by the

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Speaker 1: party trick. As humans, once you get over the amazingness

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Speaker 1: of the technology, she found it incredibly useful. Turns out

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Speaker 1: that she had sort of a, when you pull the

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Speaker 1: faucet out of the mount, like to use it as

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Speaker 1: a sprayer. that faucet hangs under your sink. And there

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Speaker 1: was a leak in that and Gemini Live found it.

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Speaker 1: And she was all ready to, by the way, buy

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Speaker 1: a new faucet. And turns out she just needed a

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Speaker 1: new part from Kohler, then went on Kohler.com, ordered it,

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Speaker 1: called her local plumber who came in and installed the

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Speaker 1: whole thing.

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Speaker 2: If only we could figure out an attribution model for

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Speaker 2: that one. I’m sorry to take us off on a

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Speaker 2: tangent there, but I do love the real world stories

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Speaker 2: when an 85-year-old mom is trying to diagnose her plumbing

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Speaker 2: problems with Yeah. You know, with Gemini.

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Speaker 1: I’m sure it was last click attribution by all the

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Speaker 1: people in that change. But anyway, that’s a story for

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Speaker 1: another day. Often people start with AI overviews, then with

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Speaker 1: one of the three frontier model apps of choice, often

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Speaker 1: a free model, consumers then migrating to paid models. Obviously, then,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, there’s AI-ified experiences on brand websites. So

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Speaker 1: I could go to Lowe’s.com and they have Milo, right,

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Speaker 1: which is their AI kind of chat assistant there. IKEA

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Speaker 1: has this. I mean, like Ralph Lauren has, everybody increasingly

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Speaker 1: has this sort of a thing. So that’s often where

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Speaker 1: consumers are turning to, to kind of get their ideas.

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Speaker 1: And this leads to, I’m sure you want to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about later. What does that mean for, well,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it’s called GEO, sometimes it’s called AEO. Some people

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Speaker 1: think they’re the same. Some people think it’s different. What

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Speaker 1: should brands know about AEO and GEO? But so consumers

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Speaker 1: are increasingly becoming armed and informed in the zero moment. Now, likewise,

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Speaker 1: brands can use AI to help enhance. I’m not going

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Speaker 1: to say replace their existing forms of path to purchase understanding.

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Speaker 1: So obviously we can do diary research. We could do ethnographies.

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Speaker 1: We could do shop alongs or ride alongs. Right. Like

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Speaker 1: and we could and should continue to do that. Like

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Speaker 1: go observe shoppers. both other brand loyalists, my brand loyalists

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Speaker 1: in category and out of category. But of course, now

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Speaker 1: there’s a growing body of research that says we could

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Speaker 1: create either digital twins, which represent or replicate, I put

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Speaker 1: it in air quotes, individuals. But more often what we’re seeing,

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Speaker 1: I think more frequently is personas, which represent clusters, segments,

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Speaker 1: or groups of people. And again, I’m being very careful,

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Speaker 1: Rachel and Sarah, to say that does not replace human

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Speaker 1: research and interaction. But increasingly, we see brands, and by

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Speaker 1: the way, Procter & Gamble has talked about this publicly, Disclosure,

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Speaker 1: I’ve worked with them a little bit on this, but

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Speaker 1: brand managers now have target audience personas on their desk.

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Speaker 1: So it sort of keeps us from being in our

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Speaker 1: ivory tower in our office, and we can use AI

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Speaker 1: as we’re thinking about how to put these programs together.

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Speaker 1: So now you have my mother armed with AI and

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Speaker 1: you have the P & G brand manager or the

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Speaker 1: Kohler brand manager in that case armed with AI, both

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Speaker 1: trying to help meet in the middle, brand meets consumer need,

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Speaker 1: AI-ified on both ends.

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Speaker 2: That was a serious unpacking. So how do CMOs rethink

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Speaker 2: the way they go to market as a result of

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Speaker 2: these massive changes?

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I mean, I think we are in a

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Speaker 1: sort of long-term arc Another thing that marketing professors have

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Speaker 1: the luxury of doing is, you know, picking our heads

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Speaker 1: up beyond sort of today’s news and today’s new app

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Speaker 1: or ad feature in the middle of two long arcs

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Speaker 1: in the history of marketing, right? One is it’s moving

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Speaker 1: from one to all mass marketing only. And for all

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Speaker 1: your How Brands Grow, Byron Sharp acolytes listening, I will

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Speaker 1: say for the record, yes, that still matters. Mental availability.

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Speaker 1: And personalization, tailored messaging, one-to-few, perhaps even in some cases one-to-one, right?

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Speaker 1: So we went from entirely one-to-all. We’re increasingly moving to

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Speaker 1: that plus more tailored messaging. And then the second sort

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Speaker 1: of long arc that we’re in the middle of is

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Speaker 1: the messaging being personalized. brand out, brand determined, brand driven, interruptive.

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Speaker 1: We now interrupt your soap opera in order to give

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Speaker 1: you this word from Olay to now being part of

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Speaker 1: the conversation, helpful, not interruptive. And that, by the way,

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Speaker 1: was one of sort of Google, Larry and Sergey big

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Speaker 1: insights was like, advertising could be helpful messaging, not just

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Speaker 1: interruptive messaging. And then it’s not just in the brand voice,

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Speaker 1: but it could be in a influencer, in another human’s voice.

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Speaker 1: So we’ve got sort of those two long-term arcs going

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Speaker 1: on like this. And so if I’m a chief marketing officer,

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Speaker 1: I need to be sort of aware of what I’ll

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Speaker 1: call the forward momentum or inertia of those two trends.

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Speaker 1: And one of the interesting things about marketing is Old

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Speaker 1: trends and old foundations don’t go away. New stuff just

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Speaker 1: gets stacked and added on top of it, right? I

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Speaker 1: still need to be good at one to all, and

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Speaker 1: I still need to be good at brand-owned messaging. And

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Speaker 1: I need to be good at peer-to-peer messaging, social influencers,

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Speaker 1: and personalized messaging. So I want to think about how

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Speaker 1: I engage with LLMs in these zero moments of truth,

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Speaker 1: or AI more broadly, in light of what those long-term

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Speaker 1: arc trends mean. And likely then, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: allow me to mix metaphors, like where the puck is

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Speaker 1: going on both of those.

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Speaker 3: So based on where the puck is going and all

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Speaker 3: the conversations you’re having with CMOs, how do you think

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Speaker 3: organizationally CMOs should be thinking about their team structure given

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Speaker 3: these changes?

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Speaker 1: Of course, we should recognize here that certainly marketing leaders

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Speaker 1: and frankly, you know, team leaders in any function in

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Speaker 1: an organization are are being tasked increasingly with the famous

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Speaker 1: CFO mantra, do more with less. Right? Like, no, you

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Speaker 1: don’t get 200 new heads this year. You get two.

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Speaker 1: And no, your target isn’t flat. It’s three X what

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Speaker 1: you think you could do from your bottoms up. Good luck. Right.

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Speaker 1: Like this is sort of the reality that we’re all

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Speaker 1: facing here. So how do you organize your team along

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Speaker 1: those lines? Well, again, team should be organized based on

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Speaker 1: what do I understand about the consumer? What do I

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Speaker 1: understand about the category? What do I understand about the

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Speaker 1: competitors and the context? Are interest rates rising or falling?

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Speaker 1: These kinds of things. Are home sales increasing or decreasing?

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Speaker 1: So this is what we teach at Kellogg as sort

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Speaker 1: of the famous five Cs, you know, context, competitors, category, right?

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Speaker 1: That kind of stuff. So you need to know all

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Speaker 1: of those things. And then place, I always would say,

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Speaker 1: three big strategic bets before we get to like tactics

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Speaker 1: and budget allocation and implementation. How are you going to

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Speaker 1: grow this business? Are we going to sell more of

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Speaker 1: the same stuff to our current customers? Are we going

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Speaker 1: to sell more of the same stuff to new customers?

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Speaker 1: Dutch Bros has made that bet, right? They said, hey,

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Speaker 1: we’re selling a lot of these dirty soda drinks in

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Speaker 1: the West, but we don’t really have any business in

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Speaker 1: the Central part or East part. So same stuff to

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Speaker 1: new customers is like their bet. Or maybe we sell

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Speaker 1: new stuff to new customers. So we have to have

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Speaker 1: three of those strategic bets in light of the context.

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Speaker 1: And then based on that, now I say, how do

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Speaker 1: I allocate my resources? In part, Rachel, what you said, heads, teams, staff.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, those resources could be humans or

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Speaker 1: AI agents or some combination thereof on my org chart.

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Speaker 1: But the heads, their budget along the way needs to

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Speaker 1: be allocated there. And then we need to have, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the KPIs, the metrics to track progress along the way.

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Speaker 1: And so really starting with that sort of We call

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Speaker 1: it a ghost plan is how we teach it here

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Speaker 1: at Kellogg. Goals, objectives, strategies, tactics, budget, timing, owner.

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Speaker 3: I love all the frameworks that you’re using to give

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Speaker 3: CMOs clarity on how to think about this. We have

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Speaker 3: to ask you our famous last question, which is what’s

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Speaker 3: the bravest thing you’ve ever done?

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Speaker 1: Well, I’ve done maybe a few crazy or personal things,

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Speaker 1: not like jumping out of an airplane or anything, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: like a friend of ours has recently done. On the

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Speaker 1: professional side, I would say the bravest thing that I

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Speaker 1: did was leave the advertising business after 18 years. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I was at Ogilvy and Y & R and

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Speaker 1: Euro RCG and DDB and, you know, really enjoyed the

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Speaker 1: advertising agency business and kind of took a arguably blind

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Speaker 1: faith leap to enter, you know, as I know both

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Speaker 1: of you did enter this digital thing, which was literally

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Speaker 1: at the time when I joined Google late 2005, early 2006,

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Speaker 1: it was like 1%. of all media spending. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in what we now call traditional media

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Speaker 1: looked at me and said, you’re crazy. Like, why would

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Speaker 1: you do that? That’s like a career detour. And I

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Speaker 1: can tell you, my wife and I had long deliberations

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Speaker 1: about whether that was a good idea or a stupid,

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Speaker 1: crazy idea to leave traditional advertising and move over into

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Speaker 1: digital media at Google. And Turns out that that was

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Speaker 1: both a brave and a good decision in hindsight. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say professionally that career shift, like radical career shift,

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Speaker 1: was arguably professionally the bravest thing that I’ve done.

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Speaker 2: Well, on behalf of the entire industry, I thank you

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Speaker 2: for making that choice.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Jim, I feel like I actually want to go back

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Speaker 2: to school just to take your classes. This was so helpful.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you are right now in Billboard for

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Speaker 2: continuing it. So thank you so much for the generosity

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Speaker 2: of your time and for the simplicity with which you

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Speaker 2: broke down some very complex areas.

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Speaker 1: Good. Well, thank you for the invitation. Good to be

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Speaker 1: with you. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Rachel.

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Speaker 4: If you like what you heard and you want to

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Speaker 4: check out other episodes that really get into more of

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Speaker 4: an analyst perspective, professor perspective, go check out episodes we

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Speaker 4: did in the past with Sutrita from Forrester or Andrew Lipsman,

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Speaker 4: who is now on his own as an analyst in

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Speaker 4: the industry. And don’t forget, tell a friend, write a review.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 5: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

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Speaker 5: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

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Speaker 5: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

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Speaker 5: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

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Speaker 5: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 5: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

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Speaker 5: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

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Speaker 5: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

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Speaker 5: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

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Speaker 5: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

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Speaker 5: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.