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Speaker 1: There is so much noise for marketers and we’re a

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Speaker 1: pretty insecure discipline and we feel like no matter at

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Speaker 1: the top of our games, and it could be the

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Speaker 1: biggest marketing companies out there, I think they always feel

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Speaker 1: like they’re behind and somebody else knows something that they

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Speaker 1: don’t know and It can lead to chasing a lot

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Speaker 1: of very short-term, could be fads. I don’t want to

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Speaker 1: sound like head stuck in the sand because whether it’s

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Speaker 1: AI or real-time performance, marketing and tools, there’s a place

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Speaker 1: for all of it. But I always just want to

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Speaker 1: anchor back to, I don’t think the principles of marketing

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Speaker 1: have changed that much in a long time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce. I’m Rachel Tippegraph,

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Speaker 2: the founder and CEO of Micmac.

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Speaker 3: And I’m Sarah Hofstadter, chairwoman of Profitero Plus, and this

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Speaker 3: is a show that talks about what’s relevant in commerce

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Speaker 3: for the world’s biggest brands.

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Speaker 2: Sarah, if you were going to teach a Marketing 101 class,

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Speaker 2: what would be on the first page of your quote-unquote textbook?

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Speaker 3: What a good question. So this takes me back to

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Speaker 3: about 10, 15 years ago. When I had first started

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Speaker 3: working with Tom Boudet at Nestle, he was setting up

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Speaker 3: global marketing and media capabilities. And I was trying to

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Speaker 3: introduce concepts of digital marketing to Nestle’s global leadership. And

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Speaker 3: he just would hammer back into me, know your consumer deeply,

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Speaker 3: tie it all back to the consumer. There are certain

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Speaker 3: core fundamental principles. He goes, I know I sound like

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Speaker 3: a buddy dad, but this is the most important thing

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Speaker 3: you need to remember. then you can build from there.

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Speaker 3: But use a frame of reference of what the human

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Speaker 3: beings who buy your products actually ends up caring about.

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Speaker 3: You can then worry about how they go about expressing

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Speaker 3: that care, whether that’s in certain different formats or behaviors

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Speaker 3: or whatever. But ultimately, this is a sociological and psychological

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Speaker 3: understanding of the kinds of people that would be interested

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Speaker 3: in buying your products or having a relationship with you.

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Speaker 3: And it’s just so important It’s just so core to

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Speaker 3: who we are and what we do. And admittedly, I

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Speaker 3: never really took any courses in marketing when I was

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Speaker 3: in college, but I did take a lot of sociology courses.

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Speaker 3: I was a social major and I took a lot

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Speaker 3: of courses in journalism. I was a journalism minor. It

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Speaker 3: all goes back to the combination of really understanding human

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Speaker 3: behavior and being curious about it, which is very different,

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Speaker 3: let’s say, than a marketing 101 course.

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Speaker 2: My, you didn’t ask me, but I don’t need to.

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Speaker 2: My opening statement would be a quote. From Marshall McLuhan,

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Speaker 2: the medium is the message. Everything that I believe to

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Speaker 2: be true about marketing goes back to this notion that,

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Speaker 2: and it’s what you’re talking about, Sarah, just through a

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Speaker 2: slightly different lens, that all consumer behavior is shaped through

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Speaker 2: how we consume media. And my translation of that in

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Speaker 2: my universe is whatever happens in media will soon happen

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Speaker 2: to commerce because it’s the same relationship with the end user.

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Speaker 2: And so that’s, for me, how I would sort of

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Speaker 2: summarize everything. But we have a very different, not different,

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Speaker 2: but we have a different articulation around how to engage

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Speaker 2: with the consumer from Matt, who is the chief marketing

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Speaker 2: officer at Heaven Hill Brands, where he continues to reinforce

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Speaker 2: the four Ps, which, Sarah.

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Speaker 3: Are product, price, place, and promo. Giddy up. Let’s figure

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Speaker 3: out how we adapt that for the multiple shelves that

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Speaker 3: people shop on today.

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Speaker 2: On that note, let’s bring Matt onto the show. Today,

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Speaker 2: we are very excited to have Matt Blevins, the Chief

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Speaker 2: Marketing Officer at Heaven Hill Brands, onto the show. Hello, Matt.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Rachel, Sarah. It’s great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Well, we’re excited to have you. On the topic of you,

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Speaker 2: in preparation for this, I always love checking out our guests’

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Speaker 2: LinkedIn profiles and something stood out to me about you,

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Speaker 2: which is that you started in economics and then somehow

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Speaker 2: made your way to the booth space in marketing, which

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Speaker 2: I have to be honest, is not a pairing that

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Speaker 2: I’ve often seen before. So how do you feel that

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Speaker 2: your background has shaped how you approach brand building?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for the question and the due diligence. I

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Speaker 1: started as a economics major. I was at a liberal

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Speaker 1: arts college, and it was sort of the most business-oriented major.

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Speaker 4: I fell in love with the science.

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Speaker 1: It’s a social science, and it also is highly quantitative,

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Speaker 1: or at least I gravitated toward the quantitative side of it.

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Speaker 1: I think that balance of art and science is true

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Speaker 1: in economics. It’s very, obviously, consumer-led and markets and consumers,

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Speaker 1: and then you try to put data and analysis to that.

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Speaker 1: And that was sort of my background. I thought maybe banking,

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Speaker 1: something along those lines. But when I got into the

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Speaker 1: world of marketing, I just fell in love with both, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the category that we work in, in spirits advertising and marketing,

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Speaker 1: but also the balance of building brands, appealing to consumers,

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Speaker 1: understanding consumer behavior, and There’s endless amounts of analytics that

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Speaker 1: you can do.

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Speaker 4: That’s what got me into it.

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Speaker 1: I actually started in the world of consumer insight, market research,

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Speaker 1: and brought my skills to that discipline. But then proper

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Speaker 1: brand management kind of became my love, and particularly in

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Speaker 1: this category of spirits. And that’s where I’ve grown up

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Speaker 1: as a marketer.

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Speaker 3: That really makes you the epitome of the art and science,

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Speaker 3: if you will. Within Heaven Hill, you’ve got lots of

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Speaker 3: different levers that you can pull within that art and

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Speaker 3: the science. So how do you think about both the

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Speaker 3: levers you pull, but also measuring the impact of it

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Speaker 3: because of that challenge of getting the art and the

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Speaker 3: science right all at the same time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it’s sort of the million dollar, billion

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Speaker 1: dollar question, I think, for a lot of marketers.

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Speaker 4: How do we know what we do works?

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Speaker 1: I would start with, What’s the time horizon that we

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Speaker 1: look at things in?

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Speaker 4: In our industry, I often say we are a slow-moving good.

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Speaker 1: The fast-moving goods of consumers, we’re a little bit slower.

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Speaker 4: We’re not looking at daily performance.

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Speaker 1: The average consumer, they’re going to go shop during the

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Speaker 1: holidays for bottles of spirits for gift-giving and then obviously

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Speaker 1: for themselves. But it’s not a rapidly-moving category. So we

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Speaker 1: think beyond quarters. We’re also a privately held company, so

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Speaker 1: we also have the luxury of thinking long-term. So with

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Speaker 1: that long-term orientation, it comes down to looking at all

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Speaker 1: holistically what you’re trying to measure.

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Speaker 4: What does success look like?

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Speaker 1: Long-term brand building that we do a lot of, just

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Speaker 1: because something is measurable doesn’t always make it a good

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Speaker 1: measure for that long, long-term orientation. So we think about

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Speaker 1: all of the types of measures that we can look at,

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Speaker 1: whether that can be performance, and we look at how

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Speaker 1: things perform.

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Speaker 4: But what are our objectives?

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Speaker 1: Are we looking at a program that is going to

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Speaker 1: be in and out of the market in a short

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Speaker 1: amount of time?

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Speaker 4: That’s going to have a different.

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Speaker 1: Set of what success looks like versus building consumer awareness

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Speaker 1: and what we call mental availability with our consumers.

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Speaker 4: That’s a long process. effort.

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Speaker 1: That takes consistency and investment and time and often a

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Speaker 1: lot of strategic pivots along the way. And so we

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Speaker 1: want to look at those metrics over a much longer

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Speaker 1: time horizon.

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Speaker 4: Ultimately, it is. We’re very outcomes-based. What are the outcomes

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Speaker 4: that we’re trying to achieve?

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Speaker 1: And are there ways that we can get at what

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Speaker 1: we think the outcome was?

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Speaker 4: Because we live in a.

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Speaker 1: Strive to take a really holistic view of what we know,

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Speaker 1: what we don’t know, and focus on what good looks

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Speaker 1: like for us. I often find that pretty good measurement

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Speaker 1: gets you what you need to make decisions. And ultimately,

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Speaker 1: it’s about that. Make decisions, try, test, and learn, and

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Speaker 1: then keep moving forward.

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Speaker 2: It’s interesting. You’re bringing up things like long-term impact, pretty

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Speaker 2: good measures. as being good enough to run the business.

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Speaker 2: And I find that interesting against the backdrop of just

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Speaker 2: like the modern day landscape that we live in, which

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Speaker 2: everything is real time and optimized and removing human intervention.

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Speaker 2: And like, how do you balance like what’s happening in

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Speaker 2: the ecosystem from a technology standpoint versus these core principles

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Speaker 2: that you’ve been operating the business around?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it’s a really great point.

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Speaker 1: I think There is so much noise for marketers and

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Speaker 1: we’re a pretty insecure discipline. And we feel like no

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Speaker 1: matter at the top of our games, and it could

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Speaker 1: be the biggest marketing companies out there, I think they

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Speaker 1: always feel like they’re behind and somebody else knows something

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Speaker 1: that they don’t know. And it can lead to chasing

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Speaker 1: a lot of very short-term, could be fads. I don’t

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Speaker 1: want to sound like head stuck in the sand because

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Speaker 1: whether it’s AI or real-time performance marketing and tools, There’s

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Speaker 1: a place for all of it, but I always just

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Speaker 1: want to anchor back to, I don’t think the principles

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Speaker 1: of marketing have changed that much in a long time.

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Speaker 1: And I don’t think they’re going to change overnight. And

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Speaker 1: so if we can anchor back into what consumers, what

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Speaker 1: their natural behaviors are, what they’re looking for, it’s awareness,

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Speaker 1: it’s the four Ps of marketing.

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Speaker 4: If we can just anchor in those.

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Speaker 1: Things that we know will work over a period of time,

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Speaker 1: that’s where we put a lot of our energy.

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Speaker 4: Now, How do we make sure that we’re listening?

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Speaker 1: And there’s never been better technology and tools for us

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Speaker 1: to connect with consumers.

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Speaker 4: And for sure, we want to do that.

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Speaker 1: But as I said earlier, we’re also skeptical, I think,

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Speaker 1: of just because something can be measured, a click-through rate,

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Speaker 1: or there are things that ROAS or things that look

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Speaker 1: very scientific that in our business, and I can speak

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Speaker 1: to us, you know, We don’t have a huge e-commerce.

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Speaker 1: There is certainly an element of e-commerce in our business,

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Speaker 1: but by and large, we’re not selling real time.

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Speaker 4: So that’s maybe unique to our industry.

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Speaker 1: We don’t have that optimization culture for the algorithm, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, but we have a lot of other tools

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Speaker 1: that we can use.

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Speaker 4: In the short term.

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Speaker 1: But my general feeling is anchor back to the principles

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Speaker 1: of marketing. Are you making consumers aware? Is your brand

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Speaker 1: distinctive and standing out? And are you relevant in the

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Speaker 1: right occasions for your brand? Those basic tasks that we

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Speaker 1: have to do, that’s what makes the difference in the

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Speaker 1: long term. And so that is a benefit, I think, too, of,

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Speaker 1: as I said, we’re a privately held company. So we

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Speaker 1: can have that strategic patience of what we’re intending to do.

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Speaker 4: What’s our strategy? What are consumers? What behaviors do we

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Speaker 4: want to change about our brands?

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Speaker 1: And then let’s set about it in a thoughtful way

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Speaker 1: over a longer period of time than a month or

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Speaker 1: a quarter before we change and pivot.

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Speaker 3: I’m 99% aligned with you. This whole idea of back

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Speaker 3: to basics, because we lose sight, we get easily distracted

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Speaker 3: by bright, shiny objects in this world of marketing and

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Speaker 3: certainly in brands, whether they’re fast moving or slow moving.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: Or as I like to call them, consider purchases.

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Speaker 4: I actually.

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Speaker 3: I got caught saying slow-moving consumer goods at one point,

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Speaker 3: and I was talking to an electronics manufacturer, and he

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Speaker 3: was like, we like to call them considered, not slow-moving.

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Speaker 3: I’m like, I know, but it’s so much nicer to

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Speaker 3: say FMCG or SMCG. And he’s like, yeah, but it

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Speaker 3: makes us feel slow, and I don’t want to create

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Speaker 3: a culture of slow.

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Speaker 4: I’m like, all right, cool.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, we’re in marketing.

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Speaker 4: Fair.

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Speaker 3: As we look at all the things that could benefit

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Speaker 3: from this whole application of whether it’s the four Ps

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Speaker 3: or just… the simplicity of knowing your consumer deeply, that

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Speaker 3: all makes sense. But then in your comments, you said

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Speaker 3: we’re not big in e-commerce. But if knowing your consumer

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Speaker 3: deeply knows that part of the shopping journey includes checking

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Speaker 3: the digital shelf or, I don’t know, I was actually…

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Speaker 3: had a total wine recently and I was looking for something.

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Speaker 3: I just didn’t know what aisle it was in. It’s

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Speaker 3: helping me on my journey. So how do you think

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Speaker 3: about those new technologies while staying true to the consumer?

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Speaker 3: That is an art and science in and of itself,

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Speaker 3: if you will.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I completely agree.

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Speaker 1: And I don’t want to be misinterpreted when I say,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don’t have a big e-commerce business. What

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Speaker 1: I would say is like, buy now online and it

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Speaker 1: arrives at your door. Certainly retailers have that option and

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Speaker 1: we service that, but we’re not sending our product directly

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Speaker 1: to the consumer. There’s obviously some legal and responsibility reasons

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Speaker 1: that we want to make sure we don’t, in our industry,

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Speaker 1: don’t do that. And also the store experience that you

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Speaker 1: just mentioned is really important because this is a category

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Speaker 1: people care about. They want to explore and Where I

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Speaker 1: think digital technologies and consumer behaviors change is exactly that.

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Speaker 1: So I’m actually going to get some education from a

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Speaker 1: tequila expert who has a YouTube channel. And maybe I

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Speaker 1: watch that show before I go into the store or

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Speaker 1: he prompts me to go into the store. And I’m

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Speaker 1: trying my hand at mixology and I’m following some mixology

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Speaker 1: accounts on Instagram. And that has led me to try

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Speaker 1: my hand at making the perfect old fashioned tequila.

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Speaker 4: That behavior and that digital engagement, Reddit.

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Speaker 1: As a tool, as a place where people are trading

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Speaker 1: information and education, we’re very dialed into that and ensuring

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Speaker 1: that we’re engaging communities, we’re creating community, creating content, and

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Speaker 1: that we’re listening to our consumers about what they’re saying

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Speaker 1: about our brands and what they’re saying about their behavior.

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Speaker 1: So again, like I said, there’s never been more tools

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Speaker 1: to do that and show up, obviously, in our media, paid, earned,

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Speaker 1: owned channels. We’re making sure that we’re engaging the consumer

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Speaker 1: and feeding, in some ways, feeding that algorithm to make

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Speaker 1: sure that we’re showing up in ways that the consumer

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Speaker 1: is aware of us and takes the influence of our

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Speaker 1: activity into the store shelf, which primarily is where we

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Speaker 1: We win, which is in the on and off premise

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Speaker 1: and restaurants. Bartenders are obviously an important part of our

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Speaker 1: trade ecosystem. And we do a lot of work to

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Speaker 1: service that industry so that they know our brands and

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Speaker 1: are educated. So I think you’re hitting on sort of

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Speaker 1: that duality in our industry of behaviors and that shopper

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Speaker 1: journey and consumer journey that takes a huge path through

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Speaker 1: the digital space before they then end up in real life.

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Speaker 1: And we kind of want to win in both sides.

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Speaker 1: We want to be in real life as well. We

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Speaker 1: see a lot of value in that. We spend a

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Speaker 1: lot on showing up as well as digital.

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Speaker 2: We talked a lot about maybe what’s over-engineered in marketing.

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Speaker 2: And that could potentially be one thing that the industry

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Speaker 2: is either getting wrong or getting right. I think there’s

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Speaker 2: different debates around that. But what else do you feel

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Speaker 2: is going on? There’s a lot of headlines, obviously, about

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Speaker 2: the BevAlc industry right now. We’ve talked a lot about

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Speaker 2: it on the show. So we don’t need to belabor

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Speaker 2: the points and changing consumption behaviors. But are there other

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Speaker 2: things that you feel the industry is missing right now?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the commentary is mainly missing nuance. It

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Speaker 1: is a much more nuanced discussion than the headlines, which

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Speaker 1: I know that’s the role of headlines is to get

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Speaker 1: a click. And they’re written in pretty bold and simplistic

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Speaker 1: ways of describing what’s happening online.

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Speaker 4: We’ve just come through one of the most historic.

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Speaker 1: Periods in spirits, which was through the COVID experience and

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Speaker 1: the boom in consumption. And just think about how much

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Speaker 1: downtime people had and disposable income went up. And it’s

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Speaker 1: kind of nice to have cocktails, even when you’re six

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Speaker 1: feet away from each other. And there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of that that happened. So the category, like many categories,

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Speaker 1: kind of boomed during that era. And we’re kind of

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Speaker 1: unwinding from that. And I think in that process, I

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Speaker 1: kind of describe it, we’re in a storm as an industry,

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Speaker 1: both up and down, riding the waves. And when you’re

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Speaker 1: in a storm, even a lightning bug looks like it

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Speaker 1: could be a lighthouse in the distance. And so there’s

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Speaker 1: just so many data points that are flying around. Where

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Speaker 1: I think we’re headed, I think we are unwinding from

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Speaker 1: a historic growth cycle. There are real changes to consumers

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Speaker 1: having come through that cycle. mainly in sort of what

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Speaker 1: they’re interested in. I think it bodes well for spirits

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Speaker 1: by and large. And the nuance I think is missed

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Speaker 1: is one, it’s often blamed on generations.

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Speaker 4: So the Gen Z generation.

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Speaker 1: And by all evidence, their behaviors really aren’t a whole

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Speaker 1: lot different, but how they show up is a lot different.

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Speaker 1: So there’s new categories, maybe new flavors that are coming online,

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Speaker 1: driven by them. But I think the three main things

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Speaker 1: of Premiumization continuing. People want to enjoy beverages and higher-end

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Speaker 1: beverages as a treat, as a luxury, and it’s actually

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Speaker 1: a pretty affordable luxury. So that has been a decades-long

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Speaker 1: trend that I think continues.

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Speaker 4: Moderation.

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Speaker 1: A lot has been written about moderation in consumption, and

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Speaker 1: I think that is not new. That has been happening

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Speaker 1: for a long, long time. And by and large, as

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Speaker 1: a spirits marketer, that is a good thing because people

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Speaker 1: are trading maybe volume of beverage alcohol in other categories

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Speaker 1: and enjoying a cocktail or two in the spirits category

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Speaker 1: might be replacing other categories. And then innovation has been

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Speaker 1: winning with innovation in this category. There’s never been more opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And the Generation Z, I think, is more and more

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Speaker 1: open to give me new options. They’re looking at new

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Speaker 1: ways of consuming and are not maybe as stuck in

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Speaker 1: old category definitions. So we’re seeing spirits-based, RTD, ready-to-drink products

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Speaker 1: that are winning in the marketplace, that are a huge trend.

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Speaker 1: And those are examples of long-term that turns into spirits

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Speaker 1: consumption favored over maybe other categories.

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Speaker 4: So I think nuance is what’s being lost.

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Speaker 1: And I think while there are a ton of factors

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Speaker 1: going on, those major trends, moderation, premiumization, innovation, are going

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Speaker 1: to continue to drive our category forward.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to Heaven Hills specifically, given everything

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Speaker 2: that’s happening in terms of category dynamics, what brands are

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Speaker 2: you deciding that you have to modernize right now?

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Speaker 1: We are blessed with a portfolio that’s deep in its

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Speaker 1: breadth of categories, price points, and consumers that our brands serve.

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Speaker 1: You know, right now we are fortunate to have two

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Speaker 1: brands that are leading the way in one of the

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Speaker 1: hottest categories in spirits, and that is in tequila. The

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Speaker 1: most recent facelift that we unveiled was for our tequila

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Speaker 1: brand that’s called Tequila Ocho.

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Speaker 4: It is Highlands Tequila.

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Speaker 1: It’s one of the more successful brands in the category

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Speaker 1: right now. And that was a case of it wasn’t

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Speaker 1: a massive shift in that brand, but it was really

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Speaker 1: about bringing its positioning and the truth that it’s aimed

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Speaker 1: to be the world’s best sipping tequila, bring it to

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Speaker 1: life through a beautiful new bottle label that really emphasizes

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Speaker 1: the Tequila Ocho name. And we decide generally around ensuring

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Speaker 1: that our brands are meeting what’s inside the bottle.

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Speaker 4: What are they about as a brand?

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Speaker 1: And so we look for, are they relevant to consumers?

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Speaker 1: Do we hit all the marks on telling the story

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Speaker 1: of the product? Do we have distinctiveness of our brand

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Speaker 1: coming through and the touch, the feel, the look of

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Speaker 1: the package and product. Ultimately, we look over time across

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Speaker 1: our portfolio and evaluating, is it time to refresh a

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Speaker 1: brand when it is or when it’s sometimes capturing momentum

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Speaker 1: on a brand and just slight tweaks to ensure that.

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Speaker 4: We’re doing right by the brand.

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Speaker 1: And usually consumers and our partners out in the market

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Speaker 1: will tell us when it’s time or when they see

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Speaker 1: an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Well, Matt, we could pick your brain on everything that’s

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Speaker 2: happening in the category, but we got to ask you

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Speaker 2: our famous last question, which is what’s the bravest thing

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Speaker 2: you’ve ever done?

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Speaker 4: It’s a very provocative question.

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Speaker 1: I’ll start by saying bravery is I reserve that term

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Speaker 1: for really brave people in, you know, our firefighters, our soldiers.

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Speaker 1: But I’ll take the bait and say, you know, bravery

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Speaker 1: for me is sometimes it’s showing up every day. I

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Speaker 1: think in a professional setting, it’s taking on leadership. This

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Speaker 1: leadership role that I’ve taken on, it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: to serve the organization. And leadership is always an act

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Speaker 1: of leadership. of stepping out of your comfort zone. So

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Speaker 1: that’s probably my professional answer. And then personally, I think

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Speaker 1: I’ve raised two wonderful children and all of you who

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Speaker 1: are parents or have raised children, that is an act

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Speaker 1: of bravery every day.

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Speaker 4: So I’ll take that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I’m sure your kids came out great. We appreciate

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Speaker 2: your time and you sharing the lessons and everyone’s got

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Speaker 2: to go check out the best sipping tequila on the market.

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Speaker 4: You bet. Thank you for having me. We’ll catch up

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Speaker 4: again soon. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: If you like what you heard and you want to

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Speaker 2: continue down this fundamental education series, go check out an

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Speaker 2: episode we did with Monster Energy’s Ben Galvin, where he

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Speaker 2: really talks about the fundamentals of category management. If you

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Speaker 2: like what you heard, write a review. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

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Speaker 3: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

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Speaker 3: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

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Speaker 3: this incredibly smart piece of advice, meet everyone once. As

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Speaker 3: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 3: inspiring people on the planet.

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Speaker 2: Now on Touch of Truth, we’re coming centre stage and

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Speaker 2: sharing the mic to experience stories of.

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Speaker 3: Truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge

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Speaker 3: your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever

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00:24:01,980 –> 00:24:05,609
Speaker 3: you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: I do hope to see you there.