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Speaker 1: I think the one thing which is interesting in social

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Speaker 1: is 75% of the conversation in.

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Speaker 2: Beauty are around face. It’s quite obvious, actually.

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Speaker 1: When you say I have a skin routine, you show

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Speaker 1: it with your phone, but you seldom show your belly

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Speaker 1: or your legs. You really show your face. So very obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, the telephone by design is a face mechanism.

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Speaker 1: It’s really the categories that exist there in a beautiful way.

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Speaker 1: Also a fun fact, when you talk influencers, You don’t

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Speaker 1: think of them as influencer, but the guy doing actually

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Speaker 1: your car review on YouTube is as much as influencer

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Speaker 1: as it gets.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce.

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Speaker 4: I’m Rachel Typograph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.

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Speaker 3: I’m Sarah Hofstetter, president of Profitero.

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Speaker 4: And this is a show that talks about what’s relevant

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Speaker 4: in e-commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah, it’s pretty

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Speaker 4: staggering when you look at the industry headlines, like how

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Speaker 4: much money retailers are pulling into creators or what we

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Speaker 4: formerly called influencers.

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Speaker 3: The lines are blurring so much more. The fact that

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Speaker 3: you’re seeing influencer content in retail marketing about specific brands,

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Speaker 3: it’s like it’s getting really messy. And it’s not like

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Speaker 3: it wasn’t messy before. But now it’s like, wait, who

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Speaker 3: paid for that? Where did that come from?

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Speaker 4: I was talking with someone who has a social commerce

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Speaker 4: role at a major retailer. And the person was alluding

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Speaker 4: to me that every week, the organization is giving them

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Speaker 4: more money to just pummel into influencer marketing. And they’re

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Speaker 4: actually seeing a 5x return.

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Speaker 3: A very good return is.

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Speaker 3: Wow, they’re really putting a lot of money into this

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Speaker 3: and they’re seeing the effect that influencers have on retailer decisioning.

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Speaker 3: On the flip side, it’s like, wait, what took this long?

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Speaker 3: I mean, retail has been transforming for the past five years.

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Speaker 3: Why wouldn’t they be more accelerated in involving influencers in

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Speaker 3: the decision-making process of where and how to shop, especially

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Speaker 3: given the changes in modalities of shopping? If you have

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Speaker 3: a choice of where and how you can buy your products,

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Speaker 3: And within a particular retail, you have choice of where

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Speaker 3: and how to buy those products. Then wouldn’t you want

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Speaker 3: that curated experience coming from an influencer to help guide

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Speaker 3: those newer ways of buying? So it’s part of me

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Speaker 3: is like, well, what took so long, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think one of the things that just

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Speaker 4: took so long was infrastructure. And then really we needed

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Speaker 4: the rise of TikTok, where the predominant form of content

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Speaker 4: essentially became UGC. But it’s pretty remarkable. It’s obviously been

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Speaker 4: happening in China for the last 20 years of commerce.

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Speaker 4: And who better to learn from than someone who’s in

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Speaker 4: a global position across all markets with really big brands

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Speaker 4: and incredible reach? Someone who’s leading global digital at Beiersdorf.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Axel is a special character because I think he’s

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Speaker 3: particularly adept at connecting the dots. So I don’t look

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Speaker 3: at him as anybody who would be like, hey, why

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Speaker 3: didn’t he think of this sooner? He always thinks of

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Speaker 3: things sooner.

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Speaker 4: Well, on that note, let’s bring Axel onto the show. Today,

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Speaker 4: we are super excited to have Axel Adida onto the show,

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Speaker 4: who is the chief digital officer of Beiersdorf. Hello, Axel.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Sarah. Hello, Rachel. Thank you so much for hosting me.

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Speaker 4: We’re super excited. Where in the world are you calling

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Speaker 4: in from?

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Speaker 2: I’m calling from Hamburg, Germany.

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Speaker 4: All right, we’ve gone global, folks.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely European.

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Speaker 4: Axel, you and I have had the pleasure to get

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Speaker 4: to know each other via Micmac and Beiersdorf, but you

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Speaker 4: have a very relevant history to this show. You’ve spent

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Speaker 4: time at L’Oreal, you’ve spent time at Sanofi, and of course,

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Speaker 4: now you’re at Beiersdorf. And in all these roles, you’ve

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Speaker 4: been leading global brands, primarily in the beauty and overall

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Speaker 4: health and wellness space. There’s been a lot of change

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Speaker 4: in these sectors. What do you feel have been the

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Speaker 4: key changes and maybe what still has remained the same

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Speaker 4: over the last decade?

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Speaker 1: There’s three things that do not change in fast-moving consumer goods.

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Speaker 2: First, great brands win.

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Speaker 1: I could not be more favored than working for Nivea, Eucerin, Hansaplast,

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Speaker 1: and La Prairie, which have been in people’s hearts for

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Speaker 1: over 100 years. Second, great research and development and innovation

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Speaker 1: absolutely wins. We have Tiamidol, which is an extraordinary molecule

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Speaker 1: for anti-pigmentation, which has been cracking with user in markets

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Speaker 1: from North America to Asia. And third things, great products

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Speaker 1: when they make it to the consumer and how you

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Speaker 1: come across. Hero products are still as relevant to e-com

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Speaker 1: as they used to be in the physical shelves not

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Speaker 1: so long ago. I think the one thing when you

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Speaker 1: look at it, there are five big things that are changing.

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Speaker 1: We do have a very strong media shift. How much

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Speaker 1: people have become digital in just 10 years still baffles me.

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Speaker 1: Over three quarter or 80% of our time is now

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Speaker 1: on average digital. Very strong today, influence is coming as

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Speaker 1: a major media channel. When you think about it, social

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Speaker 1: media only started in 2006 and now you’ve got 5

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Speaker 1: billion people over two hours per day, just social media.

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Speaker 1: So the very strong shift with influence, big screen being

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Speaker 1: back and retail media being everywhere is still a big

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Speaker 1: change in the media space. Two, data-driven marketing is a

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Speaker 1: major shift. It’s quite funny because now, you know, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn’t even think about it, but all the algorithmic for

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Speaker 1: content is everywhere. All the algorithmic for influence or advertising

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Speaker 1: is everywhere. So there’s no marketing with no data at

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Speaker 1: the core of it. The funny thing is I got

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Speaker 1: a 12 years old at home and younger ones, and

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Speaker 1: you realize that they’ve been born with intrinsically social stories,

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Speaker 1: which make a very different fabric of life stories in childhood.

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Speaker 1: You know, you born social, your average story is a

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Speaker 1: few seconds to a few minutes, and you build a

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Speaker 1: drove of education and beauty like never before. I got

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Speaker 1: the impression I don’t have a young teenager. I got

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Speaker 1: a beauty assistant at home. And it’s quite impressive. Fourth shift,

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Speaker 1: you know, massive explosion of formats. TVC used to be

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Speaker 1: a reflex still until, you know, somewhere in the 220s.

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Speaker 1: But now you got your squares, your stories, your 69.

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Speaker 1: You need to have episodes. If you repeat the same

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Speaker 1: ad for 10 times, people get crazy.

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Speaker 2: They want diversity.

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Speaker 1: Very big shift. And the last one, it’s a bigger shift.

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Speaker 1: I think it’s a shift in what is a marketer

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Speaker 1: job today. And it’s a very strong multi-specialist business. Some

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Speaker 1: people get fantastically relevant in reading profiteer results and monitoring

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Speaker 1: the digital shelf. Others are crafting SEO content. So it’s

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Speaker 1: really a multi-specialist business. And people are having five or

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Speaker 1: 10 different careers in the span of their own career.

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Speaker 1: So from where I sit, those are still seismic changes

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Speaker 1: in digital today, and it doesn’t stop accelerating.

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Speaker 4: So with all of those changes, like, for example, you

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Speaker 4: mentioned a big shift in media. You talk about influencers.

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Speaker 4: You talk about retail media. Given that your role is

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Speaker 4: so global, are those more pronounced in certain countries than others?

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Speaker 1: I think if there’s one country which sums it all

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Speaker 1: up with a lot of advance, it’s actually China.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So China is just everything, just like more of it.

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Speaker 1: More formats, more AI, more interaction, more WeChat, and stuff

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Speaker 1: come up in China and then make it big. You know,

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Speaker 1: TikTok was born not too long ago, started with LibDub,

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Speaker 1: and now it’s a big social commerce business. So also

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Speaker 1: the speed is so different. So every time I’m traveling

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Speaker 1: to Shanghai, you know, it’s like a tremendous inspiration. An

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Speaker 1: inspiration to run a little faster every time.

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Speaker 3: Let’s dive a little bit more into China. Like, what

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Speaker 3: are the things that you’re learning? What’s changing here? And

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Speaker 3: how do you filter what is worth bringing back versus

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Speaker 3: what is just endemic to that environment in and of itself?

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Speaker 1: I think this one is a fantastic question. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are differences. KOLs, key opinion leaders, we call them influencer,

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Speaker 1: but they’re very much the same. Doing media on Alibaba,

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Speaker 1: you know, we have Amazon Media, everybody’s copied the playbook,

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Speaker 1: it’s very much, and it’s become very close. Social media platform, well,

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Speaker 1: we got a bit of Meta, a bit of TikTok.

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Speaker 1: So all those, surprisingly enough, originating from here, from China,

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Speaker 1: they have a very different brand name, but the playbook’s

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Speaker 1: not too different. The one thing right now that remains

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Speaker 1: quite different is how WeChat is powerful. And we don’t

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Speaker 1: see it working really in that way anywhere else out

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Speaker 1: of Southeast Asia. And the other one is live streaming.

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Speaker 1: You know, it’s a QVC back to us, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing all the displays with TV shopping and all this

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Speaker 1: enormous in China. And every time it’s come up around here,

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Speaker 1: it has gone a bit soft, but it doesn’t mean

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Speaker 1: it will not succeed on the second or third attempt.

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Speaker 3: Well, Do you think that that’s just because it looks

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Speaker 3: too much like the way QVC did? And so it’s

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Speaker 3: like there’s an association with that. It’s the, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: been there, done that. Like, do we need to almost

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Speaker 3: like rebrand that concept to get people or marketers to

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Speaker 3: believe in it? Or it’s just, you know what, that

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Speaker 3: actually just works better for a Chinese consumer.

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Speaker 1: To be frank, I don’t know. Still have questions. You know,

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Speaker 1: they long the interaction with people. Questions, questions on promotions,

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Speaker 1: questions on the product. And they’re used to having it

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Speaker 1: pretty much live. And the way live streaming is done,

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Speaker 1: notably for luxury product in Asia, sometimes can be quite

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Speaker 1: an interesting experience when one is doing their exploration. But

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Speaker 1: the funny thing is, you know, young team around Europe

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Speaker 1: or North America will be typing into TikTok search to

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Speaker 1: see what other people are looking at. or into ratings

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Speaker 1: and reviews. And the experience is going to be more

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Speaker 1: personal in Asia. Maybe the third time will be a hit. TikTok,

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Speaker 1: it was quite funny. You know, the first time we

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Speaker 1: had Vine, you know, micro videos and a couple of

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Speaker 1: other ones. And they popped up. They became something. People

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Speaker 1: invented memes. And then they died. And one morning you

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Speaker 1: got TikTok and, oof, brutally, an idea that didn’t work

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Speaker 1: three times is back. Maybe, well, this one, close your

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Speaker 1: eyes on it. There might be a comeback.

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Speaker 4: Not to turn this into a show about the history

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Speaker 4: of Micmac, but the first version of Micmac dating back

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Speaker 4: 10 years ago was essentially trying to crack this for

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Speaker 4: the US. People described us as QVC for Snapchat at

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Speaker 4: the time. And the conclusions that I came to is

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Speaker 4: the difference between the Southeast Asia market and the US.

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Speaker 4: We have these established banking systems in the US. We

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Speaker 4: have these established fulfillment players in the US. In Southeast Asia,

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Speaker 4: it was the wild, wild west. So Peer-to-peer shopping was

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Speaker 4: born because there was no prior ecosystem. And that’s why

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Speaker 4: I think fundamentally something like WeChat is a commerce tool

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Speaker 4: in Southeast Asia and it’s not here because it’s kind

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Speaker 4: of very similar to what’s happening with TikTok and creators

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Speaker 4: in the US. This is the generation that’s building the ecosystem.

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Speaker 4: There’s no confines of the system that they have to

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Speaker 4: exist in. I really believe that’s why we’re seeing certain

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Speaker 4: things not take off in the Western part of the world.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic insight.

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Speaker 1: It’s true, you know, going to China back from 15

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Speaker 1: years ago, it’s quite interesting to see how much it

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Speaker 1: all started from pretty much scratch with an environment with retail,

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Speaker 1: which was, you know, still very, very scrappy at the time.

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Speaker 1: And in 15 years, I mean, the way those guys

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Speaker 1: have gone and the modernization of the country and of retail,

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Speaker 1: it’s impressive, you know, it’s miraculous in its size and dimensions.

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Speaker 1: And it’s a fresh start. I think where I get

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Speaker 1: more open right now is how quickly TikTok has conquered

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Speaker 1: the world. Never know what’s going to come with the luggage.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a bit of live streaming of new practices come

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Speaker 1: with a new paradigm of TikTok, which is really a

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Speaker 1: big change on the way people interact with content and

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Speaker 1: with brands right now.

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Speaker 4: On the topic of brands, especially luxury brands, given like

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Speaker 4: your deep roots into beauty, Despite what’s happening in the economy,

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Speaker 4: like luxury is taking off. And so what’s your outlook

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Speaker 4: on this overall desire economy?

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Speaker 1: You know, there’s something which is very interesting in just

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Speaker 1: using the word, you know, desire. When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: in marketing, we used to talk about generate demand, brand awareness,

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Speaker 1: getting the product on the shelves. And now we’re all

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Speaker 1: into brand love on the one side and product desirability

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Speaker 1: on the other side. It’s really quite funny how new generations,

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Speaker 1: new consumers in Asia have broken sort of the marketing

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Speaker 1: matrix and the marketing funnel. You know, this awareness, interest, desire,

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Speaker 1: action now look a bit antiquated. What I find really

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Speaker 1: interesting in the way people behave when they’re early teens

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Speaker 1: is And how much that becomes contagious to older folks

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Speaker 1: like myself very quickly, because the younger ones show you

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Speaker 1: how they do, and then you say, well, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: should do the same. So interesting is an infinite loop

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Speaker 1: of inspiration, exploration, and community. Inspiration, you come with a

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Speaker 1: fantastic product. People find it on social networks. They go

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Speaker 1: and search for it on Google. They search for it

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Speaker 1: on Amazon.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it’s the contrary.

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Speaker 1: Your teenager discovers a product on Amazon and end up,

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Speaker 1: you know, on all sorts of blogs, still exist actually,

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Speaker 1: to understand why an ingredient this month in Germany, the

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Speaker 1: big ingredient is rosemary oil, supposed to be really fantastic

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Speaker 1: for your hair. I strongly recommend anti-pigment because this one

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Speaker 1: I’m pretty sure, you know, the effects are fantastic and

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Speaker 1: thiamidol is an amazing molecule, but all the desire people

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Speaker 1: have for understanding their skin, their bodies, how to care

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Speaker 1: about oneself. All this exploration is really a new movement.

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Speaker 1: And that’s quite funny because we tend to see consumer

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Speaker 1: like bees today. One moment you go on TikTok, another

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Speaker 1: moment you go on Google, another moment you go on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of direction. And you are going to

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Speaker 1: make your opinion one day on what’s a zeitgeist, you know,

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Speaker 1: what’s interest today and how can those ingredients, those routines change.

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Speaker 1: change the way you enter into beauty. And you do

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Speaker 1: that in a fairly, as a consumer, in a very

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Speaker 1: articulate way, exploring, getting inspiration and inspiration from peers. All

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Speaker 1: the community element is really strong here with ratings and reviews.

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Speaker 1: And it’s gigantic in China with Red, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: a very interesting network in its own right. So something

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Speaker 1: has shifted. People keep doing what they did, compare pricing,

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Speaker 1: check if people like it. But the palette of activities

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Speaker 1: for exploration has become immense. And that I find quite interesting.

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Speaker 1: The other thing which I think is interesting is in

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Speaker 1: that mix, influencers have become something. When 56% of consumers

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Speaker 1: buy a product after seeing an influencer video, it’s actually

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Speaker 1: seriously moving the needle in people’s interest in social validation.

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Speaker 1: Getting advice from peers, seeing people do applications, It’s not

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Speaker 1: purely advertising, it’s reporting on experience. And that’s a very

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Speaker 1: big shift in opinion forming, I think.

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Speaker 3: You’re raising a very good point. I’ve been thinking a

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Speaker 3: lot about the role of influencers. I mean, I’ve been

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Speaker 3: involved in, gosh, influencer marketing for almost 20 years now,

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Speaker 3: which is just crazy. And even before that for 10,

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Speaker 3: because I started out in PR, which basically is influencer marketing.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons why influencers, in my opinion, why

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Speaker 3: influencers are actually more important now than ever before is

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Speaker 3: because there are so many insurgent brands that are coming

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Speaker 3: on the scene due to the democratization of entry. The

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Speaker 3: fact that anybody can decide that their beauty brand or

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Speaker 3: an anti-pigmentation brand or a rosemary oil brand or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is. And as long as they figure out how

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Speaker 3: to game the algorithm, what you’ve done is you’ve expanded

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Speaker 3: the number of choices that a consumer can have. but

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Speaker 3: a consumer is still not going to click no matter

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Speaker 3: how exciting the ad is. It goes back to the

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Speaker 3: thing that you said at the beginning of the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Great brands, strong R & D, great product. Who’s going

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Speaker 3: to validate that? It’s going to be the influencers because

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Speaker 3: that’s the only way you’re going to even be willing,

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Speaker 3: whether it’s a dollar or whether it’s a thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: you’re not going to be able to do it. So

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Speaker 3: there’s a combination of more choices and but also more transparency.

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Speaker 3: As much as the market is giving consumers more choices

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Speaker 3: of what and where and how they can buy, you’re

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Speaker 3: not going to do it unless you actually know whether or.

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Speaker 5: Not it works.

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Speaker 3: And reviews on your own website are just not going

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Speaker 3: to get it done. So I feel like that social

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Speaker 3: commerce element is like something we still need to unlock

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Speaker 3: depending on the market itself. So what are you seeing

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Speaker 3: as it relates to social commerce, where you’ve got that

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Speaker 3: intersection of choice and transparency? And where and how do

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Speaker 3: you play as an incumbent and as a trusted brand?

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Speaker 1: I think this one is a big one. And social

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Speaker 1: commerce takes, you know, fairly different forms. In a way,

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Speaker 1: you know, social commerce, you know, I got that idea from.

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Speaker 2: You, Rachel. So credit is due, you know, social commerce

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Speaker 2: is a new D2C. And it’s true.

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Speaker 1: So everything that sold well on D2C, especially everything which

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Speaker 1: is a fairly sizable basket from higher end beauty products

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Speaker 1: or clothes are fantastic and they actually perform everywhere. In

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Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, what’s interesting is because of the lower cost

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Speaker 1: of delivery and the pervasiveness of being delivered everyday goods

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Speaker 1: at home, social commerce has a whole other dimension in

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Speaker 1: size and for everything. including for entry products or a

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Speaker 1: small sun tube, you get home delivered. So Southeast Asia,

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Speaker 1: it’s a very pervasive transformation. And it’s something we are investing,

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Speaker 1: you know, from anywhere from China to Malaysia. In other

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Speaker 1: places in the world, truth is, it’s something that people

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Speaker 1: are using a lot. And they also use it to

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Speaker 1: discover and discover products which are a bit more upscale.

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Speaker 2: Chameleon is a good example.

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Speaker 1: And to discover on products you want to get delivered

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Speaker 1: home and where you have a better acceptability for home

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Speaker 1: delivery and delivery costs or where they can be bought,

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Speaker 1: to discover new products in the face section in particular,

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Speaker 1: where you want to have an immediate discovery on multiple

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Speaker 1: things that can work for you. I think the one

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Speaker 1: thing which is interesting in social is 75% of the.

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Speaker 2: Conversation in boutique are around face. It’s quite obvious, actually.

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Speaker 1: When you say I have a skin routine, you show

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Speaker 1: it with your phone, but you seldom show your belly

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Speaker 1: or your legs. You really show your face. So very obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, the telephone by design is a face mechanism.

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Speaker 1: It’s really the categories that exist there in a beautiful way.

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Speaker 1: Also a fun fact, when you talk influence, sometimes you

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Speaker 1: meet serious folks that tells you, you know, I don’t

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Speaker 1: really follow influencers. I’m not so much in the Bravo culture.

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Speaker 1: you know, and not everybody and something. And then I

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Speaker 1: ask people, and what about the last time you bought

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Speaker 1: a car or a barbecue? Did you go and check

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Speaker 1: out a YouTube video? People say, yes, like 100%. Everything

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Speaker 1: that you’re going to buy, which is high involvement, you

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Speaker 1: don’t think of them as influencer, but the guy doing

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Speaker 1: actually your car review on YouTube is as much as

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Speaker 1: influencer as it gets. And it’s a fairly rational analysis.

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Speaker 1: Many videos that I see in the beauty section, are

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Speaker 1: fairly rational in the ways they are being wrote about. Before, after,

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Speaker 1: what are the effects, what is the texture? Sometimes I’m amazed,

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Speaker 1: you know, the level of skills and prowess of influencers

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Speaker 1: is just flabbergasting. Quality matters. People get so sophisticated, just

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Speaker 1: the same way we get sophisticated about trip advisor review.

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Speaker 1: You know, when the restaurant is a fast food, you

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Speaker 1: know that it’s a five-star fast food, but it’s not

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Speaker 1: the Michelin star. You get a bit of sort of

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Speaker 1: radar to actually read the reviews in a way that

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Speaker 1: can be relevant. And consumers are so sophisticated.

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Speaker 2: It’s funny.

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Speaker 4: I never thought we don’t see enough legs, you know, armpits, bellies, backs,

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Speaker 4: as you said. So maybe that is the next frontier. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: We got to ask you our famous last question, which

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Speaker 4: is what’s the bravest thing you’ve ever done?

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Speaker 1: Well, it’s probably not very brave in general, but in

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Speaker 1: my first career, I was a consultant. One morning I

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Speaker 1: woke up and I said, you know, all my friends

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Speaker 1: are going, they’re creating startups.

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Speaker 2: I was terrified.

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Speaker 1: And I go and I start in the beginnings of

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Speaker 1: two tents, an AI startup. And it’s an absolute disaster.

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Speaker 1: And I’m just like, my partner comes to me and say, well,

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Speaker 1: we are not born to be entrepreneurs.

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Speaker 2: It’s not a thing.

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Speaker 1: And I think the thing which was very brave for

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Speaker 1: me was not to go the first time. It was

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Speaker 1: to raise again and create a second one. You know,

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Speaker 1: after six months we were selling to Apple, to Asia.

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Speaker 2: To Indonesia.

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Speaker 1: And it proves, you know, you need to confront your

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Speaker 1: own dragon because, you know, it’s only scary from afar.

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Speaker 1: But if you get close, you’re going to sit on

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Speaker 1: it and have a good flight. You know, it’s fantastic.

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Speaker 4: Well, I’m curious what happens to that company. So I’m

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Speaker 4: going to have to go do some Googling. But Axel,

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Speaker 4: we’re so appreciative for your time, for your global insights.

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Speaker 4: You clearly have a front row seat for everything that’s

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Speaker 4: happening across the ecosystem. So thank you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Sarah. Raisha, have a fantastic day

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Speaker 2: and thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: If you want to spend more time thinking about skincare,

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00:23:11,880 –> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 4: go check out an episode that we did with Natalie,

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00:23:15,200 –> 00:23:19,740
Speaker 4: who’s the president of L’Oreal’s mass consumer products business this year,

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00:23:20,440 –> 00:23:23,429
Speaker 4: or go back even earlier this year and listen to

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Speaker 4: an episode with Julian, who is leading a more pacific

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Speaker 4: a company that has been based in the Eastern world

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Speaker 4: and is now making tremendous progress in the Western part

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Speaker 4: of the world. If you’re enjoying what you’re hearing, tell

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00:23:35,230 –> 00:23:37,209
Speaker 4: a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 5: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

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00:24:02,710 –> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 5: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

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00:24:05,540 –> 00:24:08,980
Speaker 5: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

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Speaker 5: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

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00:24:12,740 –> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 5: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

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00:24:15,119 –> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 5: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

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Speaker 5: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

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00:24:21,750 –> 00:24:24,619
Speaker 5: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

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00:24:24,640 –> 00:24:27,109
Speaker 5: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

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Speaker 5: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

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Speaker 5: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.