BRAVE COMMERCE | Episode Bar Keeper’s Friend’s Felicia Zhang on Building Brands Through Iteration
In this episode of BRAVE COMMERCE, Rachel Tipograph and Sarah Hofstetter sit down with Felicia Zhang, Head of Marketing at Bar Keeper’s Friend, to discuss what it takes to modernize an iconic brand while maintaining the trust that made it successful in the first place. Drawing on experience across global brands including Nike, Oreo, and Nestlé, Felicia shares lessons from her transition to a smaller, more agile organization, where speed, experimentation, and continuous improvement are critical to success.
The conversation explores why brands perform best when they’re willing to launch, learn, and iterate rather than waiting for perfect conditions. Felicia also shares how her approach to leadership has evolved over time, including the importance of empowering teams to take action, embracing uncertainty, and finding optimism through periods of change.
Key Takeaways
- Launching a strong V1 and improving through iteration often drives more progress than waiting for a perfect launch.
- The most effective teams combine strategic thinking with a willingness to roll up their sleeves and execute.
- Leadership becomes more effective when leaders focus less on controlling outcomes and more on empowering people and solving problems.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Speaker 1: When there is an amazing product that’s been trusted for generations,
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Speaker 1: the idea of bringing it into a new generation, making
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Speaker 1: sure that the brand is as relevant and as productive
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Speaker 1: today as it always has been, is such a unique.
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Speaker 2: Challenge and one that I just really, really love. It’s
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Speaker 2: like a startup. You have to run.
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Speaker 1: You have to be able to run. You have to
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Speaker 1: be able to pivot. You can’t be precious. You can’t
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Speaker 1: get stuck on perfection. But I’m going to put in
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Speaker 1: the work. I’m going to try to help people. I’m
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Speaker 1: going to try to find solutions to problems. And if
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Speaker 1: I do all of that, I just have faith that
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Speaker 1: good things will come out of it.
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Speaker 3: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce. I’m Sarah Hofstadter.
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Speaker 4: And I’m Rachel Tippegraff. And this is a show that
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Speaker 4: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah,
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Speaker 4: I think I already know the answer to this question,
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Speaker 4: but would you consider yourself a perfectionist?
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Speaker 5: Do I consider myself a perfectionist or do others consider
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Speaker 5: me a perfectionist?
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Speaker 4: Do you honestly think the answer differs?
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Speaker 3: It absolutely does, depending on the people.
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Speaker 2: Okay.
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Speaker 5: So my husband will say that I am absolutely not
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Speaker 5: a perfectionist. He says I’m an 80 percenter. Like 80
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Speaker 5: percent is good enough.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: And I tend to agree, like if it’s 80% of
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Speaker 5: the way there, like you can work around the edges
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Speaker 5: and people at work have always said that I’m a
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Speaker 5: crazy ass perfectionist, like that I’ll find the thing that
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Speaker 5: drives people, you know, wow, how did she find that thing?
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Speaker 5: And so I don’t know what I think I am
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Speaker 5: because at home I’m not seen as a perfectionist, but
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Speaker 5: at work I am seen as a perfectionist.
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Speaker 3: So what did you think I am? Do you think
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Speaker 3: I’m a perfectionist?
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Speaker 4: I think in relation to other people, I would consider
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Speaker 4: a perfectionist. I actually don’t consider you perfectionist. I think
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Speaker 4: the reason why you and I work so well together
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Speaker 4: is because we actually both do embody the 80% rule.
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Speaker 4: To be as prolific as we are, you cannot be
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Speaker 4: a perfectionist.
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Speaker 3: I think if I was a perfectionist, this podcast would
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Speaker 3: be pretty boring.
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Speaker 4: Also, we would have to wash our hair and publish video.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: No, like we let the warts show. And I think
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Speaker 5: that that’s a big part of being real. But it
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Speaker 5: is kind of interesting, just the perspective, because I wonder
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Speaker 5: if your employees think that you’re a perfectionist.
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Speaker 1: I don’t know.
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Speaker 4: I have one listening in right now. She could be
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Speaker 4: the judge. But in comparison to my wife, who would
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Speaker 4: also describe herself as a perfectionist, we don’t even hold
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Speaker 4: a candle.
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Speaker 3: That’s funny. My husband’s a crazy ass perfectionist.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: And it is difficult.
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Speaker 5: I was just like, I don’t know, dude, it’s good enough.
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Speaker 5: I’m like kind of okay with it. And I do
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Speaker 5: think I’ve always been like that. Again, I feel like
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Speaker 5: there are people that are going to be writing to
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Speaker 5: us after listening to this episode and.
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Speaker 3: Saying, are you freaking kidding me, Sarah?
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Speaker 5: You’re totally a perfectionist. But I’m just telling you, A,
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Speaker 5: like it’s not a self-awareness thing. A brand is what
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Speaker 5: people say about you when you’re not in the room.
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Speaker 5: And when I’m not in the room at home, I’m
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Speaker 5: most certainly not spoken about as a perfectionist. And at
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Speaker 5: my various jobs over the course of my career, that
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Speaker 5: might be perceived as different. But I think it’s different
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Speaker 5: being perfectionist than having a high standard.
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Speaker 2: I agree.
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Speaker 3: And maybe that’s where the confluence comes in.
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Speaker 4: Sarah, I think you should introduce this guest on the
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Speaker 4: show because you’ve known them for a long time and
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Speaker 4: you’ve seen the evolution.
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Speaker 5: So- Felicia from Bar Keepers Friend is going to be
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Speaker 5: joining us. And one of the many reasons that I
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Speaker 5: really wanted to have her on the show is because
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Speaker 5: she’s gone through such a transformation, professionally and personally, like
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Speaker 5: the transformation that she’s gone through professionally has been, you know,
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Speaker 5: working both on, you know, just absolutely huge iconic brands
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Speaker 5: like Nike and Oreo and Nestle over the years. And
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Speaker 5: I had the privilege of working with her on some
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Speaker 5: of that when we have.
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Speaker 3: Collabed at 360i.
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Speaker 5: But Now working with a smaller brand, but in-house, just
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Speaker 5: I think a lot of that has changed the way
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Speaker 5: she thinks about things professionally. But also when we met,
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Speaker 5: she wasn’t a mom. And becoming a mom has really
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Speaker 5: changed a lot of her perspective. So I think her
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Speaker 5: professional development and her personal development have changed.
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Speaker 3: Her perspective on perfectionism.
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Speaker 5: And I think it has made her a stronger leader
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Speaker 5: and a happier human.
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Speaker 4: Well, on that note, let’s bring Felicia onto the show.
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Speaker 5: This has been something that I feel is becoming a
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Speaker 5: little bit of a pattern here. It’s people that I’ve
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Speaker 5: worked with, particularly at 360i that have gone on to
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Speaker 5: brand side and have done some pretty extraordinary things. So Felicia,
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Speaker 5: I’m really excited about this conversation because you’ve seen things
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Speaker 5: from so many different perspectives. especially let’s go way back
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Speaker 5: machine on the iconic brands that you have worked on
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Speaker 5: when you were agency side like Oreo and Nestle. What
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Speaker 5: drew you to Bar Keepers Friend and what surprised you
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Speaker 5: the most about making that week?
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Speaker 1: Well, firstly, I have been a fan of Bar Keepers Friend,
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Speaker 1: the product for over 15 years. I was someone who
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Speaker 1: got into cooking. Once I moved in with my Then boyfriend,
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Speaker 1: now husband, you know, it’s kind of like that life stage.
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Speaker 1: And when you are learning to cook, you’re going to
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Speaker 1: burn a lot of food on your stove and on
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Speaker 1: your pots and pans.
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Speaker 5: I don’t know what you’re talking about. This never happens.
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Speaker 5: This is a you problem.
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Speaker 2: Like it still happens.
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Speaker 1: It’s 15 years later, still having the same issues many,
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Speaker 1: many years later. But I found out about Bar Keepers Friend,
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Speaker 1: which is not a product I grew up with. from
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Speaker 1: just going into Google, the result that popped up was
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Speaker 1: Reddit and just having a lot of people talk about
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Speaker 1: what a crazy, amazing product this was. So I found
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Speaker 1: out about Bar Keepers Run many, many years ago. And
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Speaker 1: once you try it, you truly will never use anything else.
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Speaker 1: Once tried, always trusted kind of slogan is very true.
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Speaker 1: So I’ve just been a huge fan of the product.
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Speaker 1: And when the opportunity came, I was really thrilled. But
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Speaker 1: outside of that, to your question, Sarah, I think having
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Speaker 1: worked on just many iconic American brands that are trusted
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Speaker 1: by consumers like Oreo, Nestle, like Cole Haan and Nike,
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Speaker 1: where I worked at also before outside of the agency world.
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Speaker 1: When there is an amazing product that’s been trusted for generations,
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Speaker 1: the idea of bringing it into a new generation, making
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Speaker 1: sure that the brand is as relevant and as productive
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Speaker 1: today as it always has been, is such a unique
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Speaker 1: challenge and one that I just.
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Speaker 2: Really, really love.
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Speaker 4: You’ve described this role as a pivot. So what muscles
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Speaker 4: are you flexing now that maybe you were not doing prior?
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Speaker 2: Oh, so many.
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Speaker 1: I’m coming up on year one and it has been
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Speaker 1: such a huge learning curve and one that I’m really
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Speaker 1: grateful to have. So my background has really been in
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Speaker 1: brand marketing and in digital marketing, which is everything from
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Speaker 1: social to media to what is the brand strategy, campaign planning,
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Speaker 1: integrated marketing, all of that. But my background was not
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Speaker 1: in traditional brand management. So there are so many things
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Speaker 1: that I am learning, working with the sales team, packaging,
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Speaker 1: which is a huge thing.
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Speaker 2: And especially for.
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Speaker 1: Our brand, as we are undergoing a packaging refresh this year,
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Speaker 1: the first in well over a decade. So there are
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Speaker 1: so many things that I am truly learning as I
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Speaker 1: go that I’m really grateful to have the opportunity to do.
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Speaker 5: Now that you’re seeing things from such a different perspective,
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Speaker 5: I feel like you’ve had so much experience with tremendous
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Speaker 5: success at all of the companies that you’ve worked at.
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Speaker 5: There’s so much more flexibility when you are brand side
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Speaker 5: at a smaller company. So how do you balance being
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Speaker 5: this like super high achieving type A person who’s got
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Speaker 5: like everything kind of under control with more fast moving
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Speaker 5: fluid kinds of environments?
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Speaker 2: So really funny story.
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Speaker 1: We had a commercial offsite where the sales and marketing
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Speaker 1: team came together and we all had to take our
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Speaker 1: Enneagrams as part of that offsite. I got perfectionist, which
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Speaker 1: I was aghast. I was not happy. I was not
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Speaker 1: happy to see it.
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Speaker 3: Are you serious?
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Speaker 1: I was very not happy to see it. And I
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Speaker 1: recognize that this is something I’m working through.
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Speaker 2: I need to work through.
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Speaker 1: But that’s such a great point, Sarah, because when you
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Speaker 1: are in a brand where you have the possibility to
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Speaker 1: literally put a handprint and touch so many things that
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Speaker 1: you wouldn’t be able to, it’s like a startup. You
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Speaker 1: have to run. You have to be able to run.
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Speaker 1: You have to be able to pivot. You can’t be precious.
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Speaker 1: You can’t get stuck on perfection. which is a lot
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Speaker 1: of learning from previous roles that I’ve been at. But
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Speaker 1: one thing that I’ve been saying to people that I
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Speaker 1: work with is we are at our best as a
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Speaker 1: team when we know that we have more than one
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Speaker 1: shot at something. So we know that there’s a V1
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Speaker 1: we’re going to launch and we’re going to launch.
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Speaker 2: Quicker than anyone thought was possible.
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Speaker 1: And then there’s going to be in a week or
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Speaker 1: two weeks or in a month, there’s going to be
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Speaker 1: a V2 where we’re going to do it a little
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Speaker 1: bit better. And then a month from that, we’re going
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Speaker 1: to have a V3. We are at our best when
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Speaker 1: we can work this way and be okay with that journey.
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Speaker 1: Then to wait three months to try to get V1
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Speaker 1: as perfect as possible and knowing that nothing is ever
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Speaker 1: perfect when it launches. So there have been so many
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Speaker 1: things that we’ve launched in the last, I would say,
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Speaker 1: six months or so. And what we have learned from
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Speaker 1: muscle memory is V1, V2, V3 in the same time
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Speaker 1: as it would take to launch a V1. That is
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Speaker 1: when we’re at our best and that’s how we have
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Speaker 1: to work to operate.
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Speaker 4: And that’s when you’re iterating with the consumer. I mean,
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Speaker 4: in today’s ecosystem, the opportunity to get feedback as fast
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Speaker 4: as possible and then bring it back into your cycle
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Speaker 4: is everything.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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Speaker 1: We just did a activation where we launched LITS, reusable
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Speaker 1: silicone lids that can go on top of your barkeeper’s
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Speaker 1: friend powder. So typically we have a sticker that you
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Speaker 1: can kind of peel on and off and our diehard
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Speaker 1: fans on Reddit have been asking for a lid for
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Speaker 1: a long time and we’ve never done it because we
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Speaker 1: want to keep the cost low, but we did it
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Speaker 1: as more of a limited edition kind of one-time thing.
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Speaker 1: So we launched an activation where we created lids and
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Speaker 1: we gave away over a thousand lids over the span
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Speaker 1: of seven days. 144 a day to celebrate our birthday.
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Speaker 2: And our goal is that.
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Speaker 1: We will be able to carry these lids and sell
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Speaker 1: them as individual items, either on our website or on
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Speaker 1: Amazon or somewhere else. But rather than waiting for getting
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Speaker 1: that all done and aligned and buttoned up, which will
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Speaker 1: take months, what we did was we’re saying, let’s launch
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Speaker 1: these lids. Let’s give people the thing that they have
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Speaker 1: been asking for as a thank you. We can continue
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Speaker 1: to do these as activations as we work on creating
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Speaker 1: a system and a backend in order fulfillment where we
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Speaker 1: could do DTC or listening on Amazon.
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Speaker 4: Listening to you talk, you’re extremely action oriented. Like you
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Speaker 4: have really tangible examples of how you are moving work forward.
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Speaker 4: And so I’m curious, first of all, if you believe
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Speaker 4: that’s a skill that can be taught or if that
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Speaker 4: is just innate in our beings. Either you have it
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Speaker 4: or you don’t. Okay, so you believe it’s a skill
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Speaker 4: that can be taught.
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Speaker 2: 100%.
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Speaker 1: And let me tell you, Sarah Hofstadter’s words as well
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Speaker 1: as actions play a huge part in that.
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Speaker 2: I was listening to Sarah talk.
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Speaker 1: And also one of your previous episodes where Sarah coined
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Speaker 1: that in any role that you’re in, you have to
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Speaker 1: oscillate between getting shit done and big strategic ideas. And
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Speaker 1: you have to know when to do what And that
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Speaker 1: was clarifying. I think that was just so clarifying for
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Speaker 1: me when I heard that. I’m always trying to learn.
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Speaker 1: I’m always getting inspired. And I think it’s really important
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Speaker 1: that you sit down with yourself, no matter where you
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Speaker 1: are kind of in the totem pole, and say, is
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Speaker 1: this a get shit done moment?
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Speaker 2: Is this a get shit done quarter? Is this a
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Speaker 2: get shit done year?
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Speaker 1: Is this a big strategic idea moment? And again, one
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Speaker 1: doesn’t happen without the other, hopefully, but you have to
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Speaker 1: do what is needed at that point in time. And
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Speaker 1: I will say that this is a muscle that I’m
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Speaker 1: building and I love it. It’s really empowering to know
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Speaker 1: that you yourself can get shit done.
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Speaker 4: And so how do you teach others to do that?
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Speaker 2: Oh, that’s a great question.
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Speaker 1: Well, one, I think It is always helpful when it’s all,
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Speaker 1: all hands on board and not just you all hands
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Speaker 1: on board, you know? So as I said, you know,
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Speaker 1: also just watching, having watched Sarah as well. So I
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Speaker 1: think it’s just demonstrating it’s all, all hands on board.
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Speaker 1: When we have a big audacious goal, like for example,
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Speaker 1: we’re launching a website in a month, you know, we’re
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Speaker 1: launching a website in a month. We have a photo
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Speaker 1: shoot two weeks before the website. It all has to get,
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Speaker 1: you know, it all has to get on there. And
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Speaker 1: when it’s all hands on board and I’ve got this part,
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Speaker 1: you’ve got this part, they’ve got that part, this is
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Speaker 1: how it all comes together. And this is how we’re
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Speaker 1: all working together. I think that’s really important. And then
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Speaker 1: I think you have to find people who are going
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Speaker 1: to have that mindset that if I don’t know something,
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Speaker 1: I am going to figure it out. I’m either going
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Speaker 1: to figure it out myself or I’m going to find
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Speaker 1: the right people to ask who can help me figure
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Speaker 1: it out. But people who have that mentality of, yes,
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Speaker 1: I can.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I can figure it out.
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Speaker 5: One of the things that’s interesting is you were talking
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Speaker 5: about how aghast you were about the perfectionism. And you
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Speaker 5: and I worked closely together before you became a parent.
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Speaker 5: And now that you are a parent, letting go of
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Speaker 5: that perfectionism has been, frankly, a necessity.
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Speaker 3: And I don’t mean you.
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Speaker 5: I mean any parent, Rachel being a new one, me
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Speaker 5: being a, let’s just say, not New one. But you’ve
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Speaker 5: also talked about how letting go of that perfectionism has
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Speaker 5: made you a better parent. So like, what was that
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Speaker 5: spark that helped you realize that? And then how, if
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Speaker 5: at all, do you bring that to work?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that has been, being a parent
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Speaker 1: has been just the most transformational experience.
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Speaker 2: And I know everyone says this, so this is not new.
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Speaker 3: But we’re talking to you and you’re the guest. So
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Speaker 3: let’s talk about your experience.
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Speaker 1: But I think in terms of perfectionism, being a parent is,
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Speaker 1: You can do everything quote unquote right. You can follow
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Speaker 1: the most hardcore advice. You can try to do everything right.
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Speaker 1: And there is absolutely no guarantee of any outcome.
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Speaker 2: And that’s the way it should be. And your job
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Speaker 2: as a parent.
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Speaker 1: You know, is to just love and support your child.
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Speaker 2: You kind of like, no matter what.
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Speaker 1: And I think when I recognize that the best that
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Speaker 1: I can do for my child is really just to
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Speaker 1: love and support them, no matter what, no matter what
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Speaker 1: they’re interested in, no matter how they show up academically,
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Speaker 1: no matter kind of what, you know, their personalities are like,
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Speaker 1: you could just have to let go of the, well,
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Speaker 1: if I do everything right, then there’s an end outcome
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Speaker 1: because the end outcome is just that your child is
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Speaker 1: kind of loves who they are and it’s comfortable with
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Speaker 1: who they are and goes out into the world with
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Speaker 1: that comfort of loving who they are.
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Speaker 2: You know, like that’s the only end outcome that I
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Speaker 2: want for my child.
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Speaker 1: And I think when you think about perfectionism of if
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Speaker 1: I do this right, my child will go to X
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Speaker 1: school or my child will do this or that. And
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Speaker 1: like none of that is important and none of that
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Speaker 1: can be guaranteed. And I will share a really personal story. Rachel,
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Speaker 1: I know you’re a new parent, but when I had
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Speaker 1: my first child, He was born very, very healthy. And
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Speaker 1: then I had trouble breastfeeding, which a lot of parents do.
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Speaker 1: But I just kept being told, you know, this is
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Speaker 1: the best that you can do for your child.
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Speaker 2: And I really, really tried. You know, I did not
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Speaker 2: give up.
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Speaker 1: And it got to a point where I think in
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Speaker 1: his two-month check-in, he had declined on the growth chart
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Speaker 1: to be at something like 4%, which when you slide
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Speaker 1: into the single digits and when you’re in the very
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Speaker 1: low single digits, you get into failure to thrive territory.
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Speaker 1: which being told as a parent who is a perfectionist
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Speaker 1: that you’re trying to do all the right things, that
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Speaker 1: your child has failure to thrive, was so incredibly gutting.
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Speaker 2: And at that moment, it was really quick, like, Me
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Speaker 2: trying to be a.
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Speaker 1: Perfectionist parent in the same way that I had tried
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Speaker 1: to do that through work and all these other things
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Speaker 1: is actually causing harm to my child as well as
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Speaker 1: to myself because it was not fun.
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Speaker 2: None of that was fun. That was a real wake-up call.
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Speaker 1: And from then, I really just said, forget making me
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Speaker 1: feel good about doing what I… I’m just going to
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Speaker 1: give my kid whatever it is that they’re going to need.
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Speaker 1: And that was a very long journey to… to just
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Speaker 1: supporting and feeding my child so that they could not
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Speaker 1: be failure to thrive and gain a little bit more
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Speaker 1: and gain a little bit more. And I think even
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Speaker 1: from two months on, that was a lesson of you
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Speaker 1: just do whatever you need to to make your child thrive,
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Speaker 1: to make them feel supported. And as a baby, that’s
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Speaker 1: just feeding. Now my older son is eight years old.
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Speaker 1: Now it’s just really about supporting who he just naturally
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Speaker 1: is and making sure that he feels great about that.
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Speaker 3: That’s beautiful, meaningful.
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Speaker 5: And in the interest of also sharing, I struggled with
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Speaker 5: that with my son who was my second.
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Speaker 3: I had no problem with the breastfeeding.
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Speaker 5: I had a big problem in that he really did
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Speaker 5: not enjoy it and threw up everything that I gave him.
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Speaker 5: And I was like, oh my God, my baby’s rejecting me.
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Speaker 5: This is horrible. I’m going to try harder. And it’s like, no,
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Speaker 5: trying harder does not work. Yeah, trying harder just simply
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Speaker 5: doesn’t work. And recognizing that, okay, you know what? I
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Speaker 5: know that this is, the way it’s been done for
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Speaker 5: generations and millennia, but there’s a good reason why we
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Speaker 5: have alternative options at the moment and thank God continue
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Speaker 5: to thrive.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, it is a punch in the gut.
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Speaker 5: I think one thing that seems to stay true throughout
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Speaker 5: all of this is your faith, faith in yourself, faith
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Speaker 5: in others, faith in the process, which is a big
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Speaker 5: part of letting go, which again, as somebody who has
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Speaker 5: struggled with this whole, like, how do I not just
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Speaker 5: take all of this on myself, but involve others to
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Speaker 5: make it more both team-oriented and also just to, frankly, function.
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Speaker 3: So faith has become more central.
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Speaker 5: To you as you’ve grown. How do you cultivate that
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Speaker 5: when the road ahead isn’t so clear?
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Speaker 2: Sarah, that’s such a great question.
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Speaker 1: And to clarify, faith for me is not religion.
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Speaker 2: I am actually not religious at all. I didn’t grow
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Speaker 2: up religious.
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Speaker 1: And I would say up until The past few years,
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Speaker 1: I really had no faith. For me, faith was just
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Speaker 1: in being able to control everything that I could, to
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Speaker 1: see the road ahead, to control the variables, to make
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Speaker 1: sure that things would go according to plan. So I was, yeah,
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Speaker 1: very little faith. And in the last few years, though,
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Speaker 1: I will say that letting go and just kind of
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Speaker 1: believing that what is meant to be will be mine
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Speaker 1: and what is not meant to be will not be mine.
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Speaker 1: And just knowing that no matter what happens, if you
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Speaker 1: work hard, you keep trying, you don’t give up, good
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Speaker 1: things will happen. Believing in that, fully believing in that
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Speaker 1: has really been kind of the way that I’ve been
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Speaker 1: thinking and working. The last few years, it’s been tough economically.
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Speaker 1: We see it in the news. There’s so many layoffs
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Speaker 1: that are happening. There’s all kinds of challenges that are happening.
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Speaker 1: You really do not. There’s a lot of things that
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Speaker 1: you just don’t control. And as a perfectionist, it’s all
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Speaker 1: about control. If I do this, I’m going to get
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Speaker 1: this outcome. If I can see around the corner and
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Speaker 1: answer every single possibility, have a plan A through Z,
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Speaker 1: I’m going to be okay. But in the grand universe
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Speaker 1: of things, there’s just so many things that happen that
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Speaker 1: you don’t have control over.
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Speaker 2: The tighter you try to hold.
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Speaker 1: On in those instances, just the more insane you’re going
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Speaker 1: to be. So rather than holding on tighter, I think
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Speaker 1: it’s actually about, for me, it’s been about loosening up,
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Speaker 1: you know, not necessarily changing the way that I am,
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Speaker 1: but just opening up my mind and saying, you know,
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Speaker 1: I have faced all kinds of challenges before. I have
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Speaker 1: overcome them. I’m not going to overcome them just by
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Speaker 1: hope or just by wishing. but I’m going to put
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Speaker 1: in the work. I’m going to try to help people.
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Speaker 1: I’m going to try to find solutions to problems. And
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Speaker 1: if I do all of that, I just have faith
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Speaker 1: that good things will come out of it and that
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Speaker 1: we will be okay. So I don’t have like an
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Speaker 1: answer to where or why, but as I’ve gotten older,
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Speaker 1: as I’ve had challenges that I’ve worked through, I think
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Speaker 1: it’s just simply knowing that no matter what happens, there
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Speaker 1: will be a way. You will have a way. The
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Speaker 1: universe will show you a way and what’s meant to
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Speaker 1: be will be.
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Speaker 4: Well, it really resonates with me because a therapist once
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00:21:33,550 –> 00:21:35,830
Speaker 4: said to me, Rachel, the pain is in the pushback.
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Speaker 4: And I think that encapsulates what you just said. We
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Speaker 4: have to ask you our famous last question, which is
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Speaker 4: what’s the bravest thing you’ve ever done?
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Speaker 1: The bravest thing that I’ve ever done is be an optimist.
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Speaker 1: And I will say that I am an optimist. I’m
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Speaker 1: a new optimist. I would never have described myself as
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Speaker 1: an optimist. I would have said very annoyingly, I’m a
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00:21:57,280 –> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: realist for many years of my life. But today I
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Speaker 1: can absolutely say I am a full optimist. I think
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Speaker 1: what lies ahead is greater than what lies behind us.
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Speaker 2: Do I have proof of this? Concrete proof?
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Speaker 1: No. But I just know that good things will happen
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Speaker 1: as long as we treat people right, put in the
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Speaker 1: hard work and just.
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Speaker 2: Do our best.
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Speaker 4: Well, we appreciate you sharing your optimism and your words
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Speaker 4: of wisdom. It’s certainly uplifting. We are recording this on
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Speaker 4: a Friday, so it’s a nice way to roll into
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Speaker 4: the weekend.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
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Speaker 4: If you like what you heard and you want to
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00:22:34,710 –> 00:22:38,990
Speaker 4: listen to more people from Sarah Hofstetter’s past of 360i greatness,
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00:22:41,020 –> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 4: Go check out the episode we recorded with Megan from Comb.
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00:22:45,820 –> 00:22:48,290
Speaker 4: And don’t forget, tell a friend, write a review. Thanks
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00:22:48,310 –> 00:22:48,830
Speaker 4: for listening.
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Speaker 6: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman
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00:23:06,100 –> 00:23:08,869
Speaker 6: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast
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00:23:08,930 –> 00:23:12,369
Speaker 6: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me
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00:23:12,410 –> 00:23:16,100
Speaker 6: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As
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Speaker 6: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and
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00:23:18,520 –> 00:23:21,619
Speaker 6: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,
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00:23:21,820 –> 00:23:25,100
Speaker 6: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience
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00:23:25,140 –> 00:23:27,980
Speaker 6: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that
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00:23:28,030 –> 00:23:30,490
Speaker 6: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is
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Speaker 6: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out
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Speaker 6: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.