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Speaker 1: It takes tough conversations because like we’re going to be

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Speaker 1: making decisions that like some people are just not going

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Speaker 1: to be happy with. But Mindy and I are going

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Speaker 1: to work together because we’re friends and we’re going to

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Speaker 1: like pick our battles and we’re going to try and

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Speaker 1: push the business where it needs to go. So I

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Speaker 1: think that’s our success.

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Speaker 2: For us, it also has to do with letting go

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Speaker 2: of the concept of turf. We try to not be

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Speaker 2: precious about, well, this is your area, this is my area,

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Speaker 2: because of how the consumer journey has evolved. You have

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Speaker 2: to let some of that go and we say, okay,

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Speaker 2: we’re going to together as a team make the best decision.

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Speaker 3: For the situation this brand is in. That’s how we’re

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Speaker 3: going to kind of approach this.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce.

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Speaker 5: I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

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Speaker 6: And I’m Rachel Tippegraff. And this is a show that

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Speaker 6: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands.

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Speaker 1: Sarah, you and.

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Speaker 6: Ryan Wiener have worked together for how long?

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Speaker 3: 26 years.

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Speaker 6: That’s longer than I think marriages in every country.

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Speaker 5: That’s probably not like the way we want to compare

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Speaker 5: these things. I mean, he’s more like a work spouse.

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Speaker 4: But working actually, he joined the company that I had

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Speaker 4: the week that his son was born, his older son.

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Speaker 4: So we have been working together since our older kids

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Speaker 4: were born, but Sam and his daughter, Stephanie came afterwards. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it’s been a long time, but having trust with the

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Speaker 4: people you work with, it makes it so much easier

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Speaker 4: to be vulnerable.

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Speaker 5: And also to create boundaries.

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Speaker 4: And be able to hold your guns without being fearful

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Speaker 4: that like that’s going to impact your job or way

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Speaker 4: of working or anything like that.

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Speaker 6: What is it between the two of you that makes

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Speaker 6: both of you want to keep working together all these decades?

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Speaker 4: I have to say the latest iteration with 37 Arc,

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Speaker 4: I was not necessarily originally in on it.

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Speaker 5: And then he just like totally sucked me back in.

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Speaker 5: And now I’m like all into it.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of it of why we continue

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Speaker 4: to work together is that we compliment each other really well.

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Speaker 4: And while I have plenty of professional pursuits, independent of him,

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Speaker 4: my board seats, my advisory roles and things like that,

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Speaker 4: I do find that the intellectual sparring makes me better

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Speaker 4: and it allows me to be curious without feeling dumb.

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Speaker 4: It allows me to also like, actually the not feeling

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Speaker 4: dumb part is a really important part of it because

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Speaker 4: I feel like I’ve already we’ve already proven ourselves to

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Speaker 4: each other I was talking to somebody recently um actually

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Speaker 4: this morning and she was asking me she’s like does

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Speaker 4: it get too intense because anytime you talk to each

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Speaker 4: other you’re always talking about work you may be friends

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Speaker 4: but it doesn’t matter because you’re always talking about work

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Speaker 4: so you always have to be like on one of

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Speaker 4: the things that’s been really kind of helpful is me

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Speaker 4: just saying You know what? My brain’s not interested in

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Speaker 4: discussing this right now. So we’re not going to talk

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Speaker 4: about that. There aren’t that many people you can kind

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Speaker 4: of get away with saying that.

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Speaker 6: Your spouse, your best friend, your sibling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: You know what?

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Speaker 4: If I said to Adam, my husband, if I said,

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Speaker 4: you know what?

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Speaker 5: My brain’s not working. I don’t want to talk about

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Speaker 5: this right now. I think he’d be like, okay, but

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Speaker 5: we have to talk about this.

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Speaker 6: Oh, Sammy and I pull that all the time.

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Speaker 5: You say my brain doesn’t want to do this?

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Speaker 3: 100%.

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Speaker 6: I have no capacity to have this conversation right now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Because we both know if we keep going down that direction,

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Speaker 6: it’ll be a disaster.

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Speaker 5: I hear that. But think about it at work, how

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Speaker 5: often somebody came to your office and said to you,

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Speaker 5: you said like, hey, can you give me an idea

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Speaker 5: on the forecast for the quarter?

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Speaker 4: And they’d be like, you know, my brain’s not in

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Speaker 4: the mood to do that right now. You’d be like,

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Speaker 4: get the fuck out of here.

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Speaker 5: Like, that’s it. That’s it. It’s over, right?

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Speaker 6: But I do think it’s important to understand as a leader,

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Speaker 6: how to get the most out of your team. And

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Speaker 6: for example, I know who’s an early riser on my

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Speaker 6: team versus who works late.

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Speaker 5: Oh, you’ve got to know that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and I’ll schedule accordingly.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: For example, everyone knows I’m an early riser and by

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Speaker 6: 4 p.m.

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Speaker 5: My brain is mush.

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Speaker 6: So just like don’t have a difficult conversation with me

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Speaker 6: after 4 p.m.

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Speaker 4: With all the conversation about AI and tech and all

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Speaker 4: this other stuff, the criticality of understanding relationships and understanding, A.C.

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Speaker 4: Eggleston-Bracy said this on our podcast many years ago, what

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Speaker 4: makes you tick and what ticks you off? And I

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Speaker 4: actually wrote that down and kept it on a sticky

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Speaker 4: until the stickiness wore off. And obviously I’ve committed it

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Speaker 4: to memory and with the appropriate credit, but I think

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Speaker 4: it makes a difference when you know that about yourself

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Speaker 4: and you know that about the people that you work

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Speaker 4: with ultimately drives the right kinds of partnerships.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: That is built by working together, especially through challenges and

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Speaker 6: just really the, the nature of time passing. And so

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Speaker 6: on that note, We are going to bring onto the

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Speaker 6: show Mindy and Wes, who have an incredible working partnership

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Speaker 6: at Mondelez, and you will all be witness to their

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Speaker 6: chemistry and how that facilitates true growth for the business. Today,

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Speaker 6: we’ll go Wes Saraceni, VP of Consumer Experience US at Mondelez. Hello,

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Speaker 6: Mindy and Wes.

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Speaker 3: Hi there.

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Speaker 6: Hey.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 6: Well, we’re so excited to have you. We obviously go

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Speaker 6: way back with both of you through various lives. And

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Speaker 6: it’s interesting, we’ve recorded 200 plus episodes and we rarely

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Speaker 6: have had both marketing and sales represented on the show

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Speaker 6: at once, which I have no idea why, but we’re

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Speaker 6: probably going to get into it on the show. And

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Speaker 6: I At first glance, I have to guess that the

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Speaker 6: reason why is because so many orgs still operate in

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Speaker 6: silos where not even on the show, they want to

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Speaker 6: bring them together. So why did both of you want

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Speaker 6: to do this episode together?

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Speaker 1: Mindy’s like the other half of my brain. So like,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of the thing, right? Marketing and sales,

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Speaker 1: like left and right brain, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Rachel, it is rare that people like us

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Speaker 1: get together on the same show. That’s a problem. So

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Speaker 1: it’s really cool that Mindy and I are here together

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Speaker 1: because at work, this is how we are. Mindy and

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Speaker 1: I are like always holding hands when it comes to

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Speaker 1: some of the big decisions that we have to make.

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Speaker 1: And that’s how it should be. I’m supposed to speak

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Speaker 1: for the consumer. Mindy speaks for the shopper. It’s funny.

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Speaker 1: Those are the same person, but at organizations like ours

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Speaker 1: and many others, like we kind of think about them

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Speaker 1: separate sometimes. So Mindy and I are working together to

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Speaker 1: make sure that doesn’t happen.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, The evolution that has happened over the past

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Speaker 2: 10 years to the consumer journey, the shopper journey, whatever

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Speaker 2: we want to say, it necessitates this kind of partnership

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Speaker 2: because the shopper, they’re not deciding, oh, this.

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Speaker 3: Is something I do in the upper funnel.

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Speaker 2: And then here’s something I’m doing when I’m actually shopping, right?

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Speaker 2: It’s all the same thing to them. So what we

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Speaker 2: have to do is be really deliberate about connecting those

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Speaker 2: points across the shopper journey.

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Speaker 3: And it’s super hard. It’s actually super hard in our organization.

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Speaker 2: And I think the reason we’re doing this is because

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Speaker 2: Wes and I are both passionate about it. And we

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Speaker 2: believe that our organization needs to keep pushing in this area.

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Speaker 2: And there’s still a lot of people that for us want.

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Speaker 3: To keep things separate.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes we have to be practical and we move

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Speaker 2: on things because speed is important. But over time, we

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Speaker 2: really want to bring these teams together, have these full

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Speaker 2: journey plans that we’re putting in front of consumers and

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Speaker 2: shoppers and be connected through that journey to really drive

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Speaker 2: what we think is going to be accelerated conversion for

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Speaker 2: our brands and categories.

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Speaker 4: I’ll tell you a story that probably neither of you know,

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Speaker 4: but 14, 15 years ago, I was working on the

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Speaker 4: Oreo brand at a digital agency. And we didn’t know

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Speaker 4: anything about shopper marketing because we were digital marketers. So

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Speaker 4: we were just like, whatever, consumer shopper, like those are

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Speaker 4: just interchangeable terms.

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Speaker 5: And it was just as like, you know, mobile was mobile.

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Speaker 4: Specifically just in terms of social media apps on mobile

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Speaker 4: was a really big deal. And we were coming up

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Speaker 4: against like shopper budgets and shopper agencies and our minds

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Speaker 4: were blown. And so one of the things that we

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Speaker 4: did at the agency was bring in shopper marketing experts

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Speaker 4: to teach us and help us understand. And so much

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Speaker 4: of it to us was like, why is this not

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Speaker 4: just marketing? Like, why do you need consumer marketing and

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Speaker 4: jobber marketing? And then here we are 14, 15 years later,

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Speaker 4: and we’re still trying to break that down. And it’s

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Speaker 4: funny because you guys, particularly Mondelez International at a global level,

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Speaker 4: last week I was in Cannes with Martin.

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Speaker 5: Rachel was on one side of him. I was on

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Speaker 5: the other side of him.

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Speaker 6: And that was unplanned. He chose to sit next to us.

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Speaker 5: That is true. That is true.

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Speaker 4: Which we definitely have to get him on the show also.

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Speaker 4: because we don’t have enough model these people that come

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Speaker 4: on to brave commerce one thing that you know i

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Speaker 4: always found fascinating is that he’s the chief marketing and

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Speaker 4: sales officer so you’ve got that alignment at the top

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Speaker 4: but when you kind of go down to the markets

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Speaker 4: and you go down to the activation and you go

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Speaker 4: down to the the specifics like how do we get

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Speaker 4: shit done that’s where so much of it falls apart

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Speaker 4: just watching your chemistry to me is like it’s so

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Speaker 4: it’s so inspiring.

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Speaker 5: And i To me, so much of what’s brought marketing.

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Speaker 4: And sales together more lately has been this jump off

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Speaker 4: of retail media.

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Speaker 5: And the way you guys.

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Speaker 4: Are talking about it, it’s about just reverse engineering, how

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Speaker 4: humans behave.

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Speaker 5: Regardless of where they are in the store. Like, how

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Speaker 5: did you become these kindred spirits?

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Speaker 1: I love the word chemistry, Mindy.

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Speaker 6: We do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Are we work dating? Yeah. Yes. First of all,

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Speaker 1: let me address how we got here. And I think

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Speaker 1: it has to do with a lot of trust. So like,

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Speaker 1: I remember joining the organization, like, whatever, 13 years ago,

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Speaker 1: and like, Mindy was one of the first people I met, like,

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Speaker 1: we worked in the same category. as like ABM, senior ABM,

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Speaker 1: Mindy being more senior, of course. And she mentored me

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Speaker 1: and we’ve been friends ever since. So there’s like a trust, right?

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Speaker 1: That we’re all trying to do the same thing. We’re

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Speaker 1: all in here. We spend like a lot of time

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Speaker 1: at work with each other. In some cases, you guys

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Speaker 1: know this, we spend more time at work than with

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Speaker 1: our families sometimes, which is kind of crazy. But like

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Speaker 1: we are at the core like friends. And so we

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Speaker 1: can have open and honest conversations with each other. You’re right, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Like the way this whole thing manifests at the bottom,

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Speaker 1: at the execution, like the people on the ground. When

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Speaker 1: it comes to those who are buying media or planning

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Speaker 1: on the equity side, we’re measuring with M & Ms

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Speaker 1: and we’re measuring the efficiency and effectiveness of that type

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Speaker 1: of media. And then the same thing on the retail side,

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Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it. The equity side

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Speaker 1: is always going to see the national equity as performing better.

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Speaker 1: And on the retail side, the same thing. When you

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Speaker 1: look at it from that lens, well, of course, all

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Speaker 1: the retail and shopper activation is going to work harder

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Speaker 1: in the retail level. So it’s like you have these

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Speaker 1: two languages, right? And I think what Mindy and I

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Speaker 1: have been able to do is to work together to

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Speaker 1: force the conversation. We’re bringing both of those viewpoints and

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Speaker 1: models together and making decisions outside of those two boxes.

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Speaker 1: And it takes tough conversations because like we’re going to

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Speaker 1: be making decisions that like some people are just not

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Speaker 1: going to be happy with. But Mindy and I are

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Speaker 1: going to work together because we’re friends and we’re going

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Speaker 1: to like pick our battles and we’re going to try

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Speaker 1: and push the business where it needs to go. So

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Speaker 1: I think that’s our success.

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Speaker 3: For us, it also has to do with letting go

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Speaker 3: of the concept of turf.

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Speaker 2: We try to not be precious about, well.

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Speaker 3: This is your area.

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Speaker 2: This is my area because of how the consumer journey

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Speaker 2: has evolved, right? You have to let Some of that

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Speaker 2: go and we say, okay, we’re going to together as

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Speaker 2: a team make the best decision for the situation this

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Speaker 2: brand is in.

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Speaker 3: And that’s how we’re going to kind of approach this.

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Speaker 2: And I think we take a little bit of inspiration

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Speaker 2: from brands who are newer to the marketplace and they

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Speaker 2: never think about these things. Sometimes our organizational structure dictates decisions.

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Speaker 3: That we shouldn’t really even be making. We’re constantly challenging each.

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Speaker 1: Other on that.

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Speaker 6: So to your point that the landscape has evolved, at

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Speaker 6: a place like Mondelez, I’m sure there’s a lot of

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Speaker 6: people who’ve worked there their entire career. And maybe they

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Speaker 6: have a background that looks more like CPG marketers 20

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Speaker 6: years ago versus CPG marketers born today. So how are

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Speaker 6: you upskilling your peers to operate in a 2026 landscape?

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Speaker 1: That’s a really good question. And I think about like,

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Speaker 1: my own journey and like how I’ve, no one comes

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Speaker 1: out of school knowing this stuff. You learn it, right?

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Speaker 1: So like, how did I get here? And I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I’ve learned is that you

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Speaker 1: have to be okay, like feeling dumb, seriously, you don’t know.

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Speaker 1: And you need to be able to have an opinion

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Speaker 1: and go into a room, not being an expert, because

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Speaker 1: we’re all learning here. And The bigger the organization, the

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Speaker 1: tighter the lane becomes, and you’re working in this lane

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Speaker 1: and you’re kind of scared to get out of the

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Speaker 1: lane because like, you may not look like an expert.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, a lot of us operate

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Speaker 1: from fear in that way. We have to learn by doing,

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Speaker 1: and it means getting involved in the conversation. It means

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Speaker 1: being vulnerable, understanding that it like, if you’ve lived in

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Speaker 1: equity world for years. yeah, it’s okay that you don’t

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Speaker 1: know the retail environment, but like step into it anyway.

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Speaker 1: And that could feel uncomfortable. I think that’s what Mindy

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Speaker 1: and I both did. Mindy and I have not grown

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Speaker 1: up as media people. We grew up as like brand

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Speaker 1: managers and we took a step and we started to

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Speaker 1: learn about these things. And now we have like a

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Speaker 1: really good view. But in the beginning, I could speak

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Speaker 1: for myself, Mindy, but like, I didn’t know what I

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Speaker 1: was talking about. Right. And I learned and it was scary.

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Speaker 1: And I think we all just like my advice to

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Speaker 1: CPG marketers is to like be uncomfortable not knowing the answer,

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Speaker 1: but you have to get involved because you have to

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Speaker 1: experience it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The fear of like jumping into something new is definitely real.

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Speaker 2: I think in large companies because of a few things there’s,

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Speaker 2: language barriers. We almost speak different languages when you’re talking

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Speaker 2: about commerce versus upper funnel, ROAS, traffic, share of search,

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Speaker 2: all those things together. And then how do I know

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Speaker 2: which one’s most important? There’s not a rule book that’s

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Speaker 2: written around that. Things are changing very rapidly, right? And

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Speaker 2: it can feel really daunting to keep up with that change.

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Speaker 2: But what Wes said is the right thing. It’s like,

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Speaker 2: you don’t have to be perfect in keeping up with

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Speaker 2: that change. You just have to make like a small

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Speaker 2: commitment to like learning every day. And then the perfectionism

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Speaker 2: kind of like we as brand marketers growing up in

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Speaker 2: large CPG, right? You are almost trained that like you

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Speaker 2: want to come into the room with answers. You want

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Speaker 2: to know what’s right before it goes live, right? We

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Speaker 2: want to know what KPIs we’re.

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Speaker 3: Going to hit.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to loosen that. to really succeed in

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Speaker 2: these areas that are new, whether it’s retail media or

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Speaker 2: driving something from a digital commerce perspective. So we try

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Speaker 2: to model that as like leaders in the organization. And

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Speaker 2: then we’re trying to build the coalition of like people

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Speaker 2: who will come along with us and like start to

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Speaker 2: also model that because we have found that it is

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Speaker 2: a bit contagious within the organization. And once you have

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Speaker 2: leveraged the competitive spirit that kind of exists within our organization, hey,

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Speaker 2: this person is doing something really amazing. It’s not perfect,

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Speaker 2: but like, look how they’re leaning into this and learning it.

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Speaker 2: And then it inspires others to kind of do the same.

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Speaker 5: I love this.

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Speaker 4: The fact that you guys are leading with psychological safety

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Speaker 4: and the willingness to look dumb, if you will, creates

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Speaker 4: an environment for everybody else to do that. I have

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Speaker 4: to ask you, because Wes, you started with the whole

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Speaker 4: like not being afraid to look dumb. I generally speaking,

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Speaker 4: I’m not afraid to look dumb.

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Speaker 5: I do it every day.

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Speaker 4: And It gets easier every day. But in a large organization,

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Speaker 4: that’s really hard to do. It was there like a

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Speaker 4: moment that you were just like, you know what?

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Speaker 5: Like, screw it.

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Speaker 4: If I don’t get the answers to these questions, I’m

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Speaker 4: not going to be able to move forward. And before

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Speaker 4: you answer that question, I just want to give like

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Speaker 4: a big kudos to both of you because there are

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Speaker 4: plenty of ABMs that go through this like, you know,

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Speaker 4: 18-month rotation throughout the rest of their careers and don’t

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Speaker 4: actually rise to that clear, differentiated leadership. So props to

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Speaker 4: both of you for not just growing up in CPG,

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Speaker 4: but really leapfrogging as much as you had. But Wes,

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Speaker 4: was there a moment that you’re just like, screw this,

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Speaker 4: I’m just going to let it.

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Speaker 5: All out there?

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Speaker 1: So Mindy, when was the first time you felt like

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Speaker 1: you were dumb at work?

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Speaker 3: Just kidding.

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Speaker 1: I’m not going to pass it off.

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Speaker 3: This is really hard for me personally. Like I’m not

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Speaker 3: good at this.

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Speaker 5: I know it is.

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Speaker 3: I want to come in.

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Speaker 2: I want to have all the answers like that typical person.

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Speaker 2: Wes actually teaches me how to do this more. Like

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Speaker 2: I use him as I’m like, sometimes I ask myself, okay,

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Speaker 2: why am I not moving forward?

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Speaker 3: It’s because I don’t have the perfect answers. Like what

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Speaker 3: would other people do in this situation?

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Speaker 1: How dare you?

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Speaker 2: I think one example for me and Wes, you were

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Speaker 2: in this example is like we were asked to kind

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Speaker 2: of present a full year digital commerce plan, right, to

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Speaker 2: a leadership team. And like, I think it’s so interesting

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Speaker 2: when someone asks you to do that, because in an

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Speaker 2: organization like Mondelez, digital commerce means like many different things.

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Speaker 2: It means what are we doing at Amazon? What’s happening

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Speaker 2: with all the omnichannel retailers that are at different stages

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Speaker 2: of maturity? It means what’s happening in our D2C and

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Speaker 2: social commerce businesses, right? Those are really different initiatives. And

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Speaker 2: we struggled in that meeting, I think, telling a clear

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Speaker 2: story about what was happening with all those different things

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Speaker 2: to a leadership team who thinks it’s this one monolithic

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Speaker 2: thing that is delivering a decent amount of growth for

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Speaker 2: the organization. So that was a time where it’s like,

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Speaker 2: we went into that meeting, I came out of it

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Speaker 2: feeling a little defeated, but then it was like a

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Speaker 2: nice rallying point to be like, okay, How do we

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Speaker 2: continue to simplify this, break it into pieces? And it

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Speaker 2: led to this place of like, hey, we’ve got to

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Speaker 2: get everyone in the organization more literate on these things

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Speaker 2: so that we can talk about it in slightly more detail,

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Speaker 2: to be honest.

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Speaker 1: That’s a really great example. I remember that. Another example

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Speaker 1: of me just being completely vulnerable is when I made

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Speaker 1: the shift into what my previous job was, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of like the e-com marketing guy, I switched from

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Speaker 1: brand manager of Sour Patch Kids, which is like the

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Speaker 1: coolest job in the whole planet, by the way, like

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Speaker 1: so cool. I encourage everyone to have that job. But

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Speaker 1: then I switched over to lead marketing for e-commerce because

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Speaker 1: it was new and different and I wanted to learn.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, the internet’s growing. Let me

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Speaker 1: like go do that. That seems like a cool thing

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Speaker 1: to do. This is like before the pandemic when like the,

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Speaker 1: you know, the rest is history. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about and what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: I really didn’t. And it was a really awkward shift

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Speaker 1: in my career because I was going from being like

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Speaker 1: the lead of a brand who was supposed to know

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Speaker 1: everything to literally not knowing anything. What I learned really

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Speaker 1: quickly is you have to have an opinion because that’s

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Speaker 1: a foundation of like the conversation, but you have to

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Speaker 1: be wildly open to hearing the truth from experts. And

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Speaker 1: that is such a weird balance to find, right? Walking

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Speaker 1: into a room, not knowing everything, but having a foundational

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Speaker 1: assumption and then listening, like deeply listening. And I learned

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Speaker 1: that really fast because I literally was new to everything. Search, PDP. content,

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Speaker 1: like all of that, the flywheel. I mean, Sarah, all

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Speaker 1: the stuff you know so much about, new to me,

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Speaker 1: new to me, new to me. So that was really vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: But like, I’ll tell you, I think people also react

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Speaker 1: really positively when you’re vulnerable and they want, like people

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Speaker 1: intrinsically want to help. And that also surprised me. Right.

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Speaker 1: So don’t feel afraid to be dumb. Don’t feel afraid

427
00:20:13,880 –> 00:20:16,659
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable because if you’re surrounded by like a

428
00:20:16,859 –> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: good like a good set of people, they’re going to

429
00:20:18,800 –> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: want to help you.

430
00:20:19,619 –> 00:20:22,530
Speaker 5: I do believe vulnerability breeds trust.

431
00:20:23,290 –> 00:20:25,750
Speaker 4: Where did you go to get your education and where

432
00:20:25,770 –> 00:20:29,230
Speaker 4: would you recommend our listeners go to get educated?

433
00:20:30,890 –> 00:20:34,469
Speaker 2: You have to actually practically take on a project or

434
00:20:34,510 –> 00:20:34,929
Speaker 2: an initiative.

435
00:20:35,340 –> 00:20:36,980
Speaker 1: I totally agree. Yes.

436
00:20:37,160 –> 00:20:40,500
Speaker 3: You can get all the wonderful industry newsletters.

437
00:20:40,720 –> 00:20:40,980
Speaker 6: Yes.

438
00:20:41,080 –> 00:20:44,500
Speaker 2: Read them religiously, go out and learn, listen to podcasts

439
00:20:44,540 –> 00:20:47,090
Speaker 2: like free of commerce, like do all of those things.

440
00:20:47,350 –> 00:20:50,409
Speaker 2: But I think practically you have to take on a

441
00:20:51,050 –> 00:20:54,110
Speaker 2: project in order to really learn and like live.

442
00:20:54,030 –> 00:20:56,990
Speaker 3: Some of these things. I say it to my team too.

443
00:20:57,050 –> 00:20:59,290
Speaker 2: It’s like, we can do the training, we can do this,

444
00:20:59,350 –> 00:21:01,570
Speaker 2: we can do whatever, but you’re not going to know

445
00:21:01,630 –> 00:21:03,530
Speaker 2: this until you try to do it yourself.

446
00:21:04,030 –> 00:21:06,859
Speaker 3: So it has to be project and experience based in

447
00:21:06,900 –> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 3: my opinion.

448
00:21:07,880 –> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 2: And there’s a plethora of things to do, whether you’re

449
00:21:10,380 –> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 2: sitting in a brand seat or a customer seat or

450
00:21:13,240 –> 00:21:16,250
Speaker 2: a sales seat, or honestly like a finance seat, right?

451
00:21:16,330 –> 00:21:18,210
Speaker 3: You can do something in this.

452
00:21:18,210 –> 00:21:21,570
Speaker 2: Area and ask, lead with curiosity and say, what is

453
00:21:21,590 –> 00:21:22,930
Speaker 2: this doing to my business?

454
00:21:22,970 –> 00:21:25,330
Speaker 3: And how can I like think about it differently?

455
00:21:25,470 –> 00:21:27,379
Speaker 1: This person is going to know that I’m talking about her,

456
00:21:27,480 –> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: but this amazing woman who’s now on one of our

457
00:21:31,400 –> 00:21:34,879
Speaker 1: brand leads and she did like a temporary assignment for like,

458
00:21:34,900 –> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 1: she covered for someone who was, I think on mat

459
00:21:36,940 –> 00:21:39,310
Speaker 1: leave at the time. And I asked her if she

460
00:21:39,350 –> 00:21:41,250
Speaker 1: would step in and she said, yeah, I like working

461
00:21:41,270 –> 00:21:43,230
Speaker 1: with you. We can do this. And so she was

462
00:21:43,270 –> 00:21:46,570
Speaker 1: there for like a few months. And after she did

463
00:21:46,590 –> 00:21:48,169
Speaker 1: an amazing job, by the way, but this was like,

464
00:21:48,190 –> 00:21:50,129
Speaker 1: she was like fully on the e-commerce team doing a

465
00:21:50,150 –> 00:21:52,330
Speaker 1: lot of retail media type stuff and all of that

466
00:21:52,890 –> 00:21:55,020
Speaker 1: after the assignment. I mean, she took me aside and

467
00:21:55,040 –> 00:21:59,590
Speaker 1: was like, that was really a profound experience. Like, I

468
00:21:59,750 –> 00:22:05,050
Speaker 1: didn’t realize how different that world is. And to Mindy’s point,

469
00:22:05,090 –> 00:22:09,060
Speaker 1: you could talk about equity versus retail and everything, but

470
00:22:09,100 –> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: until you’ve stepped into those segments, you really don’t get

471
00:22:13,040 –> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: it until you do it. So my advice is like,

472
00:22:17,100 –> 00:22:19,179
Speaker 1: do it, find a project, like Mindy said, see if

473
00:22:19,200 –> 00:22:21,949
Speaker 1: you can cover for someone, get involved because that’s how

474
00:22:21,970 –> 00:22:22,670
Speaker 1: you’re really going to learn.

475
00:22:23,070 –> 00:22:26,129
Speaker 6: Completely agree. You have to become a practitioner. You guys

476
00:22:26,310 –> 00:22:28,470
Speaker 6: have been in the process of bringing your orgs together.

477
00:22:29,050 –> 00:22:34,510
Speaker 6: What’s one aha moment that unearthed as you started to

478
00:22:34,570 –> 00:22:36,410
Speaker 6: bring the organizations together?

479
00:22:38,990 –> 00:22:44,750
Speaker 1: An aha moment. I think for me, Mindy did mention

480
00:22:44,790 –> 00:22:48,710
Speaker 1: this already on like structure and stuff. The aha moment

481
00:22:48,750 –> 00:22:50,850
Speaker 1: was how much of the decisions we were making is

482
00:22:50,890 –> 00:22:54,429
Speaker 1: based on our structure and budgets and like lines in

483
00:22:54,450 –> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: the sand and not on like reality’s Like so much

484
00:22:58,960 –> 00:23:02,700
Speaker 1: of the world we have created is not real. PowerPoint

485
00:23:02,780 –> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: is not real. This Excel document is not real. This

486
00:23:05,420 –> 00:23:07,870
Speaker 1: budget is not real. These are not real. We’ve created

487
00:23:07,900 –> 00:23:11,230
Speaker 1: them in our heads. This is not reality for people

488
00:23:11,270 –> 00:23:14,109
Speaker 1: in the world who are eating Oreo cookies. You know

489
00:23:14,130 –> 00:23:17,340
Speaker 1: what I mean? And so. I think working with Mindy,

490
00:23:17,400 –> 00:23:21,060
Speaker 1: we realized like, hey, this is my process. This is

491
00:23:21,100 –> 00:23:24,659
Speaker 1: your process, but they’re just processes, right? So that was

492
00:23:24,700 –> 00:23:27,500
Speaker 1: a big aha moment. And it’s kind of like breaking

493
00:23:27,520 –> 00:23:28,980
Speaker 1: out of the matrix in a way. So like Mindy

494
00:23:29,010 –> 00:23:30,970
Speaker 1: and I have been able to like move money around,

495
00:23:31,050 –> 00:23:34,090
Speaker 1: make different types of decisions because we’re realizing like we

496
00:23:34,130 –> 00:23:36,949
Speaker 1: can break these processes and we can break these systems

497
00:23:36,990 –> 00:23:39,109
Speaker 1: if we want to, as long as it’s right for

498
00:23:39,150 –> 00:23:41,470
Speaker 1: the consumer. And I think that was an aha that

499
00:23:41,490 –> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: like just, I think made us all more powerful.

500
00:23:43,980 –> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

501
00:23:45,210 –> 00:23:47,909
Speaker 2: And as we’ve brought these things together, and I’m not

502
00:23:47,950 –> 00:23:50,450
Speaker 2: saying we’ve solved the world in the year or so

503
00:23:50,490 –> 00:23:53,450
Speaker 2: that we’ve been working on this, we’ve said, okay, let’s

504
00:23:53,490 –> 00:23:54,580
Speaker 2: take a huge step back.

505
00:23:54,630 –> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: Let’s look at it all together.

506
00:23:55,890 –> 00:23:58,060
Speaker 2: And Wes is really the one who’s been leading this

507
00:23:58,160 –> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 2: and saying, hey, we’re missing this really big part of

508
00:24:02,280 –> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: the consumer journey. We’re talking to them up here about

509
00:24:06,380 –> 00:24:09,540
Speaker 2: all the things our brand stands for. We’re touching them

510
00:24:09,560 –> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: a lot at the point of conversion, but we’re not

511
00:24:13,550 –> 00:24:16,670
Speaker 2: talking in this space of like driving an action, right?

512
00:24:16,710 –> 00:24:18,889
Speaker 2: Like the middle of the journey, like how can.

513
00:24:18,770 –> 00:24:19,690
Speaker 3: We move them?

514
00:24:19,810 –> 00:24:20,590
Speaker 1: Don’t get me started.

515
00:24:21,690 –> 00:24:24,470
Speaker 2: How can we move them right from that? Like I

516
00:24:24,650 –> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 2: am aware into that I’m considering and considering converting space.

517
00:24:29,380 –> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 3: And that’s a real lesson for us internally, right?

518
00:24:32,800 –> 00:24:35,700
Speaker 2: And I think again, going back to like how smaller

519
00:24:35,740 –> 00:24:38,580
Speaker 2: brands operate, right? That comes very naturally to them and

520
00:24:38,600 –> 00:24:41,939
Speaker 2: they actually start at different points in the journey sometimes, right?

521
00:24:42,270 –> 00:24:44,490
Speaker 2: So we’re just kind of continually trying to kind of

522
00:24:44,590 –> 00:24:48,050
Speaker 2: shine a light on what are our internal biases and

523
00:24:48,109 –> 00:24:50,050
Speaker 2: how do we get through them? And are we really

524
00:24:50,130 –> 00:24:51,910
Speaker 2: like thinking about this holistically?

525
00:24:52,270 –> 00:24:55,109
Speaker 6: I love that the missing mid funnel, you guys found it.

526
00:24:56,130 –> 00:24:59,500
Speaker 6: We have to ask you our famous last question, which

527
00:24:59,660 –> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 6: is what’s the bravest thing you’ve ever done? And Wes,

528
00:25:03,920 –> 00:25:04,580
Speaker 6: I’ll start with you.

529
00:25:04,600 –> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I was thinking to answer this question personally, professionally.

530
00:25:08,840 –> 00:25:10,830
Speaker 1: I’m going to keep it professional now. There’s lots of like,

531
00:25:11,350 –> 00:25:13,510
Speaker 1: ways we could go. But I want to go back

532
00:25:13,550 –> 00:25:16,930
Speaker 1: to that day that I made the shift from brand

533
00:25:16,970 –> 00:25:20,260
Speaker 1: management to this e-com world. That was a pretty big

534
00:25:20,320 –> 00:25:22,980
Speaker 1: shift for me. It was a completely different part of

535
00:25:23,000 –> 00:25:25,060
Speaker 1: the business. I had no idea what I was doing.

536
00:25:25,140 –> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: It was really me stepping into something I really didn’t

537
00:25:27,100 –> 00:25:30,459
Speaker 1: know much about. And it was really small at the time.

538
00:25:30,580 –> 00:25:34,459
Speaker 1: So there was this fear that I was hurting my

539
00:25:34,500 –> 00:25:39,850
Speaker 1: career by learning something new. And I made the decision,

540
00:25:40,130 –> 00:25:42,740
Speaker 1: probably the first time in my life career, I guess,

541
00:25:42,820 –> 00:25:47,450
Speaker 1: to choose the smaller thing in order to learn. And

542
00:25:47,470 –> 00:25:49,450
Speaker 1: that was kind of weird decision for me. We think

543
00:25:49,510 –> 00:25:53,730
Speaker 1: always like bigger, better, right? And it was the best

544
00:25:53,770 –> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: decision I made. I learned so much and the team

545
00:25:58,020 –> 00:26:01,060
Speaker 1: has just grown as that, like it’s become such an

546
00:26:01,100 –> 00:26:03,740
Speaker 1: important part of the business. So I’m really proud of

547
00:26:03,760 –> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: the decision I made. Looking back, it was like, obviously,

548
00:26:06,660 –> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: that was like an important part of a pivot point

549
00:26:09,220 –> 00:26:12,450
Speaker 1: for me. But in that moment, it was a really

550
00:26:12,710 –> 00:26:15,270
Speaker 1: tough decision. So proud of myself for that.

551
00:26:15,609 –> 00:26:16,109
Speaker 4: And Mindy?

552
00:26:16,790 –> 00:26:20,210
Speaker 3: I promise that we did not collaborate on these answers.

553
00:26:20,470 –> 00:26:24,609
Speaker 2: But my example is actually pretty similar because we talked

554
00:26:24,650 –> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: about how we’ve had somewhat similar journeys.

555
00:26:27,040 –> 00:26:30,340
Speaker 3: So I made the leap into digital a little bit later.

556
00:26:30,770 –> 00:26:33,590
Speaker 3: It was in 2022. It was post-COVID.

557
00:26:34,190 –> 00:26:36,050
Speaker 2: I was sitting kind of in a role where I

558
00:26:36,070 –> 00:26:38,930
Speaker 2: was like, I don’t know where else to go, right,

559
00:26:38,990 –> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: within Mondelez. Like, I wasn’t sure if I could continue

560
00:26:43,380 –> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 2: to grow, like if the organization wanted me to grow

561
00:26:46,680 –> 00:26:49,419
Speaker 2: with them. And I said, okay, what are all the

562
00:26:49,480 –> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: next steps? A lot of them very practical options. And then,

563
00:26:53,520 –> 00:26:55,230
Speaker 2: you know, I kind of raised my hand for this

564
00:26:55,290 –> 00:26:59,540
Speaker 2: digital commerce sales role. where I was a partner to Wes,

565
00:26:59,780 –> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: and that was in 2022, it didn’t see, it wasn’t

566
00:27:02,200 –> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: the most practical choice that I potentially had in front

567
00:27:05,100 –> 00:27:07,810
Speaker 2: of me, but kind of made that leap. And I

568
00:27:07,869 –> 00:27:10,930
Speaker 2: went into a pretty established team where I knew nothing

569
00:27:11,170 –> 00:27:12,510
Speaker 2: about digital, right?

570
00:27:13,130 –> 00:27:15,750
Speaker 3: I had actually never been in a sales leader role.

571
00:27:16,570 –> 00:27:19,630
Speaker 2: And, you know, I walked into this knowing very little,

572
00:27:20,930 –> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: surrounded by people who had been doing this for several

573
00:27:23,600 –> 00:27:26,020
Speaker 2: years at a pretty high level, right?

574
00:27:26,060 –> 00:27:29,220
Speaker 3: Wes included. And I didn’t know anything.

575
00:27:29,280 –> 00:27:31,340
Speaker 2: I didn’t know the language. I didn’t know the metrics.

576
00:27:31,600 –> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: I felt really stupid at the beginning. But I think

577
00:27:35,980 –> 00:27:38,030
Speaker 2: like the learning that I took from it is that

578
00:27:38,190 –> 00:27:42,750
Speaker 2: the not knowing is actually kind of like my superpower, right?

579
00:27:42,810 –> 00:27:45,150
Speaker 2: And it can be a superpower for people that like

580
00:27:45,230 –> 00:27:48,129
Speaker 2: step into those unknown things. Because when you come in,

581
00:27:48,710 –> 00:27:51,230
Speaker 2: you know the playbook, you know how things have been done, right?

582
00:27:51,270 –> 00:27:56,149
Speaker 2: You don’t do the questioning and the challenging. And, you know,

583
00:27:56,190 –> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: sometimes it takes that person who doesn’t know something to

584
00:27:59,880 –> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: come in and disrupt it.

585
00:28:01,500 –> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: And bring about a better way of doing things.

586
00:28:04,660 –> 00:28:06,700
Speaker 2: And not that I’ve like did that in that role,

587
00:28:06,740 –> 00:28:08,980
Speaker 2: but like that’s the main learning I’ve taken from it.

588
00:28:09,040 –> 00:28:11,369
Speaker 2: And it’s like helped me to be more brave in

589
00:28:11,410 –> 00:28:14,109
Speaker 2: my career and like taking steps forward into things that

590
00:28:14,170 –> 00:28:15,450
Speaker 2: I don’t know as well.

591
00:28:15,850 –> 00:28:18,510
Speaker 6: Well, I think this has been a remarkable case study

592
00:28:18,710 –> 00:28:23,260
Speaker 6: of Two colleagues who, yes, using Sarah’s words, have incredible

593
00:28:23,300 –> 00:28:26,850
Speaker 6: chemistry to create change in a large organization. So we

594
00:28:26,869 –> 00:28:31,310
Speaker 6: appreciate you both sharing your story. I’m curious what assignment

595
00:28:31,330 –> 00:28:34,810
Speaker 6: you’re going to take next into this unknown world that

596
00:28:34,850 –> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 6: we are participating in. And folks, follow them on LinkedIn.

597
00:28:39,000 –> 00:28:41,340
Speaker 3: Thank you guys for having us. Thank you, Wes.

598
00:28:41,540 –> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 6: Thanks, Kyle.

599
00:28:42,540 –> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: Bye.

600
00:28:43,220 –> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: Awesome being here. Thanks, Mindy.

601
00:28:49,120 –> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 6: If you like what you heard and you want to

602
00:28:50,780 –> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 6: keep thinking about the humanity of work, go check out

603
00:28:53,900 –> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 6: an episode we did probably two or three years ago

604
00:28:57,780 –> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 6: with A.C. Eggleston Bracey when she was at Unilever. And

605
00:29:01,680 –> 00:29:27,900
Speaker 6: tell a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening. Thank you.

606
00:29:31,310 –> 00:29:34,070
Speaker 7: And the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

607
00:29:34,130 –> 00:29:37,580
Speaker 7: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

608
00:29:37,600 –> 00:29:41,300
Speaker 7: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

609
00:29:41,340 –> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 7: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

610
00:29:43,700 –> 00:29:46,860
Speaker 7: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

611
00:29:47,040 –> 00:29:50,310
Speaker 7: we’re coming center stage and sharing the mic to experience

612
00:29:50,350 –> 00:29:53,210
Speaker 7: stories of truth, insights, and visions for the future that

613
00:29:53,230 –> 00:29:55,690
Speaker 7: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

614
00:29:55,750 –> 00:29:59,270
Speaker 7: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

615
00:29:59,450 –> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 7: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.