1
00:00:02,770 –> 00:00:06,750
Speaker 1: When brands win, everybody wins. Agencies, to media companies, to publishers,

2
00:00:06,790 –> 00:00:10,290
Speaker 1: to researchers, to consultants, to everybody that’s in the overall

3
00:00:10,340 –> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: marketing chain. When that effectiveness is truncated by parochial interests,

4
00:00:16,060 –> 00:00:19,680
Speaker 1: we end up making decisions that are not well-grounded and

5
00:00:19,720 –> 00:00:24,300
Speaker 1: are probably detrimental to the health and wealth of the brand,

6
00:00:24,520 –> 00:00:28,180
Speaker 1: and that basically short-circuits our overall success. I just saw

7
00:00:28,200 –> 00:00:31,070
Speaker 1: a report the other day which indicated that marketing has

8
00:00:31,410 –> 00:00:35,350
Speaker 1: relatively one of the lowest deployments of AI among business

9
00:00:35,409 –> 00:00:38,770
Speaker 1: and industry. So there’s so much more room to grow.

10
00:00:42,600 –> 00:00:46,500
Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce. I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

11
00:00:46,620 –> 00:00:49,300
Speaker 3: And I’m Rachel Tippegraff. And this is a show that

12
00:00:49,360 –> 00:00:52,520
Speaker 3: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands.

13
00:00:52,540 –> 00:00:53,460
Speaker 4: Welcome to Free of Commerce.

14
00:01:01,020 –> 00:01:06,860
Speaker 3: Sarah, you’ve lived through search, social, retail media, now the

15
00:01:07,000 –> 00:01:11,380
Speaker 3: agentic transformation. When you look back at your epic career,

16
00:01:12,100 –> 00:01:13,360
Speaker 3: what has stayed the same?

17
00:01:13,640 –> 00:01:15,509
Speaker 2: What hasn’t stayed the same is I’ve gotten much older.

18
00:01:15,530 –> 00:01:19,390
Speaker 2: The way you just phrased that, yikes. What’s funny is

19
00:01:19,550 –> 00:01:21,470
Speaker 2: the more things change, the more they stay the same

20
00:01:21,630 –> 00:01:23,770
Speaker 2: as it relates to the fact that every time there

21
00:01:23,890 –> 00:01:27,150
Speaker 2: is something new, some new change in consumer behavior or

22
00:01:27,190 –> 00:01:31,770
Speaker 2: some new technology, the big brands still seem to find

23
00:01:32,030 –> 00:01:37,119
Speaker 2: the saying either hide under the table until they think

24
00:01:37,160 –> 00:01:39,539
Speaker 2: the moment’s going to pass until they give up on

25
00:01:39,560 –> 00:01:45,690
Speaker 2: it or the jump in ready, fire, aim. But then

26
00:01:45,890 –> 00:01:48,250
Speaker 2: they just forget the fact that the consumer is the

27
00:01:48,290 –> 00:01:50,790
Speaker 2: most important part of this whole equation and everything else

28
00:01:50,830 –> 00:01:55,260
Speaker 2: around it, search, social, commerce, agentic, whatever it is. Those

29
00:01:55,280 –> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 2: are just different mechanisms. And it’s kind of funny to

30
00:01:58,760 –> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 2: me how the reaction to things that are new for

31
00:02:02,500 –> 00:02:05,500
Speaker 2: an industry where change is constant. We don’t seem to

32
00:02:05,540 –> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 2: know how to react to change.

33
00:02:06,620 –> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 3: Change is tough.

34
00:02:07,260 –> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: Change is tough. But literally, it’s the name of the

35
00:02:08,980 –> 00:02:09,920
Speaker 2: game here. Don’t you think?

36
00:02:10,080 –> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 3: A hundred percent. I mean, I’m just thinking about my weekend.

37
00:02:13,639 –> 00:02:18,220
Speaker 3: I’m noticing a change in my own market dynamics at Micmac. And,

38
00:02:18,470 –> 00:02:21,550
Speaker 3: you know, here I am post-acquisition and I’m like, time

39
00:02:21,570 –> 00:02:23,870
Speaker 3: to put on my change management pants because the world

40
00:02:23,930 –> 00:02:26,150
Speaker 3: is changing. And you can’t rest on your laurels.

41
00:02:26,490 –> 00:02:29,550
Speaker 2: I think when we look at people that have seen

42
00:02:29,610 –> 00:02:33,329
Speaker 2: it all and done it all, someone who’s certainly seen

43
00:02:33,370 –> 00:02:36,950
Speaker 2: it all has been Bob Leides, who is actually, after

44
00:02:37,130 –> 00:02:39,620
Speaker 2: many years at the helm of the ANA, retiring at

45
00:02:39,660 –> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 2: the end of the year. So we thought it would

46
00:02:41,540 –> 00:02:43,460
Speaker 2: be a good idea to bring him onto the show

47
00:02:44,040 –> 00:02:46,579
Speaker 2: to think about, like, the more things change, what does

48
00:02:46,620 –> 00:02:50,040
Speaker 2: stay the same? What doesn’t? History doesn’t repeat itself, but

49
00:02:50,120 –> 00:02:52,250
Speaker 2: it sure does rhyme. So what can we learn here?

50
00:02:52,530 –> 00:02:54,549
Speaker 3: Well, on that note, let’s bring Bob onto the show.

51
00:02:56,270 –> 00:02:59,410
Speaker 2: Representing the world’s biggest brands for I don’t know how long,

52
00:02:59,889 –> 00:03:04,790
Speaker 2: longer than I can remember, is Bob Mlandis, the CEO

53
00:03:05,070 –> 00:03:07,090
Speaker 2: of the ANA. And for those of you who don’t

54
00:03:07,120 –> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 2: know what that is, that’s the Association of National Advertisers. Bob,

55
00:03:11,660 –> 00:03:14,940
Speaker 2: I am so glad that you have agreed to join us.

56
00:03:14,980 –> 00:03:15,859
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

57
00:03:15,919 –> 00:03:20,200
Speaker 1: My pleasure. And I’ve been around for years. Call it 31.

58
00:03:20,200 –> 00:03:21,220
Speaker 1: I’m older than dust.

59
00:03:22,120 –> 00:03:25,940
Speaker 2: Oh. I got to tell you, one of the wonderful

60
00:03:26,000 –> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 2: things that I love about being in this space is

61
00:03:29,520 –> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 2: that while the pace of change is out of control,

62
00:03:31,800 –> 00:03:34,380
Speaker 2: there are certain things that are just, they don’t change.

63
00:03:34,500 –> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: But there are also things that as you’ve had this

64
00:03:38,060 –> 00:03:41,340
Speaker 2: front row seat to the evolution of marketing, some things

65
00:03:41,380 –> 00:03:44,690
Speaker 2: have gotten better and certain things have changed and certain

66
00:03:44,710 –> 00:03:47,270
Speaker 2: things have been different. But let’s start with the negative

67
00:03:47,310 –> 00:03:50,110
Speaker 2: and work our way into the positive. What’s still as

68
00:03:50,170 –> 00:03:52,430
Speaker 2: broken as it was 10, 15 years ago?

69
00:03:53,770 –> 00:03:56,510
Speaker 1: Transparency. To me, it’s always been the number one issue

70
00:03:56,690 –> 00:04:00,650
Speaker 1: that we’ve had, and primarily as it runs through media

71
00:04:00,790 –> 00:04:04,030
Speaker 1: and through the entire digital media supply chain. This is

72
00:04:04,050 –> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: an industry that is very parochial and very proprietary, and

73
00:04:10,720 –> 00:04:16,539
Speaker 1: we are not really equipped to share and to play nicely.

74
00:04:17,560 –> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 1: When you look at other industries that we’ll call it

75
00:04:20,040 –> 00:04:24,940
Speaker 1: either are highly regulated or highly standardized, Information is forced

76
00:04:25,000 –> 00:04:30,450
Speaker 1: to flow. And in that information flow, efficiencies and effectiveness

77
00:04:30,710 –> 00:04:33,690
Speaker 1: come out of it. And yes, you have a guiding

78
00:04:33,730 –> 00:04:35,590
Speaker 1: hand that says you must do this and you must

79
00:04:35,630 –> 00:04:39,210
Speaker 1: do that. But there is very little equivocation. There’s very

80
00:04:39,290 –> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 1: little uncertainty. In our industry, we have no such guiding

81
00:04:44,200 –> 00:04:48,739
Speaker 1: body that can, in fact, regulate the information and data flow,

82
00:04:49,220 –> 00:04:53,089
Speaker 1: which is so fundamental to effective marketing. Think about what

83
00:04:53,170 –> 00:04:56,270
Speaker 1: marketers have to work with. They probably only have half

84
00:04:56,330 –> 00:05:01,770
Speaker 1: the information that’s necessary to effectuate the best decisions possible

85
00:05:01,810 –> 00:05:05,210
Speaker 1: for their businesses and their brands. And what a tragedy

86
00:05:05,270 –> 00:05:10,390
Speaker 1: that is because when brands win, everybody wins. The money,

87
00:05:10,450 –> 00:05:14,620
Speaker 1: the success flow to agencies, to media companies, to publishers,

88
00:05:14,650 –> 00:05:18,159
Speaker 1: to researchers, to consultants, to everybody that’s in the overall

89
00:05:18,200 –> 00:05:24,170
Speaker 1: marketing chain. And when that effectiveness is truncated by parochial interests,

90
00:05:25,050 –> 00:05:28,049
Speaker 1: we end up making decisions that are not well grounded

91
00:05:28,570 –> 00:05:32,789
Speaker 1: and are probably detrimental to the health and wealth of

92
00:05:32,830 –> 00:05:36,190
Speaker 1: the brand. And that basically short circuits our overall success.

93
00:05:36,890 –> 00:05:39,750
Speaker 3: I think we can all agree with you that no

94
00:05:39,850 –> 00:05:42,180
Speaker 3: one wants to play nice with each other in this industry.

95
00:05:43,060 –> 00:05:46,180
Speaker 3: But in the spirit of trying to be glass half full,

96
00:05:46,200 –> 00:05:50,140
Speaker 3: you know, over the last 10 years, are there any

97
00:05:50,540 –> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 3: stories that stand out to you around transparency, measurement, or

98
00:05:54,920 –> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 3: accountability where you really feel that the industry showed up

99
00:05:58,560 –> 00:06:00,020
Speaker 3: as the best version of themselves?

100
00:06:00,580 –> 00:06:05,609
Speaker 1: Yeah, I’ll acknowledge two specific times. First, going back 10

101
00:06:05,610 –> 00:06:11,229
Speaker 1: years to the infamous media transparency report, which was essentially

102
00:06:11,270 –> 00:06:14,089
Speaker 1: commandeered by the ANA, and we often call it the

103
00:06:14,150 –> 00:06:19,370
Speaker 1: K2 report, which essentially did an expose on what we’ll

104
00:06:19,390 –> 00:06:25,190
Speaker 1: call media rebates, which was essentially non-disclosed information where the

105
00:06:25,230 –> 00:06:28,330
Speaker 1: marketers were not securing the rebates that were due to

106
00:06:28,370 –> 00:06:32,969
Speaker 1: them by media buying, and particularly at the agencies. We

107
00:06:33,130 –> 00:06:37,279
Speaker 1: exposed that issue. We essentially looked at the entire system

108
00:06:37,400 –> 00:06:40,940
Speaker 1: and identified where things could get better. From the marketer side,

109
00:06:40,980 –> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 1: it was simply a matter of, have you looked at

110
00:06:43,520 –> 00:06:47,190
Speaker 1: your media agency contract recently and updated it? at that

111
00:06:47,230 –> 00:06:50,550
Speaker 1: point in time, for the transformation that was taking place

112
00:06:50,610 –> 00:06:53,310
Speaker 1: in the digital media supply chain? The answer was an

113
00:06:53,380 –> 00:06:56,860
Speaker 1: unequivocal no. And that woke the industry up from a

114
00:06:56,900 –> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: marketer standpoint of the fact that you just cannot let

115
00:07:00,540 –> 00:07:04,940
Speaker 1: things of that import wallow in insignificance. They were, in fact,

116
00:07:05,560 –> 00:07:09,850
Speaker 1: tremendously significant. And we rewrote the media agency contract. Flash

117
00:07:09,870 –> 00:07:13,810
Speaker 1: forward another seven years or so, When we took another

118
00:07:13,870 –> 00:07:17,500
Speaker 1: crack at transparency and we issued two versions of our

119
00:07:17,810 –> 00:07:21,580
Speaker 1: programmatic media transparency report. And the issue at that time

120
00:07:21,640 –> 00:07:25,140
Speaker 1: was we did a heavy duty study that indicated that

121
00:07:25,220 –> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 1: in the open web, which was at the time about

122
00:07:28,580 –> 00:07:34,460
Speaker 1: almost $ 90 billion, about 25% waste existed. And at that stage,

123
00:07:34,760 –> 00:07:39,119
Speaker 1: we found that there were 16 areas of deficiency. Again,

124
00:07:39,140 –> 00:07:42,300
Speaker 1: a lot on the shoulders of the marketers, but blamed

125
00:07:42,340 –> 00:07:45,420
Speaker 1: to be spread all around. But one of the highlights

126
00:07:45,460 –> 00:07:48,430
Speaker 1: that just came out front and center were made for

127
00:07:48,530 –> 00:07:53,810
Speaker 1: advertising sites, where 15% of all programmatic media investments were

128
00:07:53,850 –> 00:07:58,150
Speaker 1: going to. And what a waste that was. And shortly

129
00:07:58,290 –> 00:08:02,090
Speaker 1: after the report, within six to nine months, that number

130
00:08:02,130 –> 00:08:06,570
Speaker 1: of 15% impressions bought was down to 1%. So we

131
00:08:06,590 –> 00:08:11,170
Speaker 1: can learn by essentially opening the curtains and finding out

132
00:08:11,210 –> 00:08:13,690
Speaker 1: that the man inside is just a man, as you

133
00:08:13,750 –> 00:08:17,130
Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz fans well know. And in fact, you

134
00:08:17,170 –> 00:08:19,670
Speaker 1: can click your ruby slippers and get to the place

135
00:08:19,690 –> 00:08:20,550
Speaker 1: that you need to be.

136
00:08:21,190 –> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that context. Fast forwarding, we’re now in

137
00:08:27,330 –> 00:08:31,380
Speaker 2: the AI world. And you and I have had a

138
00:08:31,420 –> 00:08:34,950
Speaker 2: couple of conversations today. just this year about it and

139
00:08:34,990 –> 00:08:39,130
Speaker 2: its implications. And obviously, I’m doubling down on that, as

140
00:08:39,150 –> 00:08:44,620
Speaker 2: we’ve discussed. In some cases, AI can help solve a

141
00:08:44,740 –> 00:08:47,100
Speaker 2: lot of the things we’re talking about. In other cases,

142
00:08:47,160 –> 00:08:53,319
Speaker 2: it can obfuscate and accelerate existing problems. Can AI be

143
00:08:53,340 –> 00:08:58,210
Speaker 2: a forcing function for better accountability? Or what’s the bull?

144
00:08:58,330 –> 00:08:58,990
Speaker 2: What’s the bear?

145
00:08:59,330 –> 00:09:02,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, AI is going to be both. But I think

146
00:09:02,620 –> 00:09:04,719
Speaker 1: there’s going to be more bull than bear over the

147
00:09:04,780 –> 00:09:08,300
Speaker 1: course of time. Let’s give AI its due. It has

148
00:09:08,380 –> 00:09:12,380
Speaker 1: essentially been effective for three plus years. And we need

149
00:09:12,420 –> 00:09:16,630
Speaker 1: to recognize its infancy. But we also need to recognize

150
00:09:16,690 –> 00:09:21,330
Speaker 1: that its ability to mature into adulthood is growing very rapidly.

151
00:09:21,670 –> 00:09:23,510
Speaker 1: I would call it a young adult right now if

152
00:09:23,570 –> 00:09:25,900
Speaker 1: I had to kind of characterize it, which is growing

153
00:09:26,000 –> 00:09:30,100
Speaker 1: up at warp speed. AI is transformational. I don’t think

154
00:09:30,460 –> 00:09:33,699
Speaker 1: there is any way to debate it, but its ability

155
00:09:33,780 –> 00:09:37,940
Speaker 1: to take knowledge and to assemble it in a way

156
00:09:38,020 –> 00:09:43,459
Speaker 1: that is understandable by we mortal humans and to move

157
00:09:43,520 –> 00:09:48,330
Speaker 1: to a place of inherent understanding that would never have

158
00:09:48,370 –> 00:09:53,730
Speaker 1: happened or would have only happened by a lengthy evaluation

159
00:09:53,809 –> 00:09:58,390
Speaker 1: period is just remarkable. And when you layer on what

160
00:09:58,630 –> 00:10:03,940
Speaker 1: agentic AI is. now becoming, we are seeing an incredible

161
00:10:04,080 –> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 1: workforce that is at our fingertips that we have barely

162
00:10:10,020 –> 00:10:15,059
Speaker 1: begun to scratch the surface with. And I do believe

163
00:10:15,120 –> 00:10:18,569
Speaker 1: that AI is the key to the one issue which

164
00:10:18,630 –> 00:10:23,830
Speaker 1: we just talked about of transparency. Because when facts and

165
00:10:23,870 –> 00:10:27,430
Speaker 1: information for the way we operate as an industry come

166
00:10:27,570 –> 00:10:30,890
Speaker 1: into AI and come into full view, it will become

167
00:10:31,010 –> 00:10:38,670
Speaker 1: apparent where the issues and business systems and fallible structures exist.

168
00:10:39,150 –> 00:10:42,750
Speaker 1: We’ve not really poked and probed at it sufficiently yet

169
00:10:42,820 –> 00:10:47,630
Speaker 1: to know where those potholes are. But once that comes about,

170
00:10:48,070 –> 00:10:52,260
Speaker 1: it will be undeniable that the marketers will demand better.

171
00:10:52,820 –> 00:10:55,780
Speaker 1: Because the way we are conditioning, I won’t say we’ve

172
00:10:55,960 –> 00:10:59,439
Speaker 1: succeeded yet, but the way we are conditioning the brand

173
00:10:59,620 –> 00:11:04,559
Speaker 1: community is to say that the vast majority of decisions

174
00:11:04,600 –> 00:11:07,210
Speaker 1: that need to be made for the industry need to

175
00:11:07,250 –> 00:11:10,250
Speaker 1: be done through the lens of the brand marketer. And

176
00:11:10,270 –> 00:11:12,489
Speaker 1: it goes back to one of the opening statements I had,

177
00:11:12,550 –> 00:11:16,200
Speaker 1: which was, when brands win, everybody wins. And we need

178
00:11:16,260 –> 00:11:19,620
Speaker 1: to learn that because when we get parochial, as we

179
00:11:19,660 –> 00:11:25,719
Speaker 1: said before, we operate ineffectively and inefficiently. AI has the

180
00:11:26,120 –> 00:11:29,620
Speaker 1: ability to open up the drapes and the curtains and

181
00:11:29,679 –> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 1: let the sunlight in. And we know that when you

182
00:11:32,470 –> 00:11:36,490
Speaker 1: shine a light on the cockroaches, they all run for

183
00:11:36,500 –> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 1: the corners.

184
00:11:37,450 –> 00:11:41,170
Speaker 2: They run the cockroaches as you’d see them.

185
00:11:41,929 –> 00:11:48,969
Speaker 1: We’ll leave that to another podcast. When I’m tired. Seriously,

186
00:11:48,990 –> 00:11:52,340
Speaker 1: I have great hope for it. I really do. And

187
00:11:52,380 –> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, if we look at

188
00:11:54,660 –> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: how AI is just transforming every landscape, well beyond marketing.

189
00:11:58,559 –> 00:12:00,840
Speaker 1: I just saw a report the other day which indicated

190
00:12:00,880 –> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: that marketing has relatively one of the lowest deployments of

191
00:12:04,940 –> 00:12:08,660
Speaker 1: AI among business and industry. So there’s so much more

192
00:12:08,720 –> 00:12:12,470
Speaker 1: room to grow. We have to become far more capable

193
00:12:12,550 –> 00:12:15,000
Speaker 1: in acknowledging that what it can do for us. But

194
00:12:15,040 –> 00:12:19,400
Speaker 1: I truly believe that we haven’t dove into the water

195
00:12:20,110 –> 00:12:24,490
Speaker 1: sufficiently yet to effectuate that change. In my company, I’m

196
00:12:24,530 –> 00:12:28,050
Speaker 1: basically trying to get everybody to develop their own personal

197
00:12:28,230 –> 00:12:32,670
Speaker 1: and departmental plans because I don’t feel while there’s lots

198
00:12:32,710 –> 00:12:35,850
Speaker 1: of great dabbling and there’s lots of great application for

199
00:12:35,890 –> 00:12:39,410
Speaker 1: writing things and becoming more efficient, we haven’t upended the

200
00:12:39,490 –> 00:12:42,770
Speaker 1: business systems yet that only AI, I think, can do

201
00:12:42,840 –> 00:12:43,360
Speaker 1: at this stage.

202
00:12:43,820 –> 00:12:45,540
Speaker 2: So if we haven’t dived into the deep end of

203
00:12:45,580 –> 00:12:47,020
Speaker 2: the pool, who’s going to be the first one to

204
00:12:47,040 –> 00:12:49,880
Speaker 2: jump in and say, hey, guys, the water temperature is back.

205
00:12:49,940 –> 00:12:50,980
Speaker 2: Get your ass in here.

206
00:12:51,320 –> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 1: Well, from an industry standpoint, I personally think that we

207
00:12:55,440 –> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 1: have to do this collaboratively. One of the things that

208
00:12:58,380 –> 00:13:00,829
Speaker 1: we’re going to be doing at the upcoming Masters of

209
00:13:00,900 –> 00:13:03,890
Speaker 1: Marketing is we are going to be doing an industry summit.

210
00:13:04,309 –> 00:13:07,469
Speaker 1: And why we’re doing an industry summit is because we

211
00:13:07,510 –> 00:13:11,090
Speaker 1: have let the golden age of collaboration pass us by.

212
00:13:11,110 –> 00:13:15,189
Speaker 1: When was that? That was in the decade of 2010

213
00:13:15,190 –> 00:13:19,710
Speaker 1: to 2018, when, for example, the IAB, the 4As, and

214
00:13:19,750 –> 00:13:23,650
Speaker 1: the ANA used to come together and have joint board meetings.

215
00:13:23,910 –> 00:13:24,429
Speaker 2: I was there.

216
00:13:24,630 –> 00:13:24,870
Speaker 1: Yeah.

217
00:13:25,150 –> 00:13:26,410
Speaker 2: I was there on the 4A side.

218
00:13:26,530 –> 00:13:30,780
Speaker 1: There you go. And to that end, things such as

219
00:13:31,160 –> 00:13:36,160
Speaker 1: the viewable impression came about, which essentially united digital and

220
00:13:36,480 –> 00:13:41,170
Speaker 1: linear measurement systems. The Digital Advertising Alliance was created to

221
00:13:41,210 –> 00:13:46,969
Speaker 1: address behavioral targeting and ensure that consumers could make their

222
00:13:47,070 –> 00:13:52,470
Speaker 1: own privacy choices. We created the Trustworthy Accountability Group that

223
00:13:52,730 –> 00:13:57,150
Speaker 1: in fact brought an organization together that addressed ad fraud

224
00:13:57,350 –> 00:14:01,770
Speaker 1: and certain brand safety issues and attacked criminal behavior. We

225
00:14:01,809 –> 00:14:04,750
Speaker 1: haven’t done that in a long time. It’s time for

226
00:14:04,820 –> 00:14:08,620
Speaker 1: us to reunite and to ensure that those things which

227
00:14:08,780 –> 00:14:14,380
Speaker 1: are both opportunities and deficiencies, that we have the opportunity

228
00:14:14,440 –> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 1: to come together, discuss, debate, and identify how we are

229
00:14:19,700 –> 00:14:24,060
Speaker 1: going to organize or reorganize in the future to pursue

230
00:14:24,120 –> 00:14:28,300
Speaker 1: those opportunities, obviate the issues that are out there, and

231
00:14:28,880 –> 00:14:31,110
Speaker 1: make better decisions for our entire industry.

232
00:14:31,630 –> 00:14:34,890
Speaker 3: I love what you’re saying, because in the last 12 months,

233
00:14:34,930 –> 00:14:39,230
Speaker 3: we’ve seen that happen in commerce because of AI. So

234
00:14:39,590 –> 00:14:42,840
Speaker 3: essentially Google, Shopify, and a bunch of other major retailers

235
00:14:43,140 –> 00:14:47,020
Speaker 3: came together to create a standardized system that they’re calling UCP.

236
00:14:47,720 –> 00:14:49,840
Speaker 3: So I guess my question is, why do you think

237
00:14:49,900 –> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 3: it stopped after 2018? Was it due to the pandemic?

238
00:14:53,180 –> 00:14:55,750
Speaker 3: Was it due to the rise of retail media? I’m

239
00:14:55,760 –> 00:14:58,190
Speaker 3: trying to think of what other external factors.

240
00:14:59,310 –> 00:15:02,390
Speaker 1: Yeah, we kind of just went into our own little cubbyholes.

241
00:15:03,030 –> 00:15:06,489
Speaker 1: The ANA, we do almost a thousand events per year.

242
00:15:07,280 –> 00:15:10,180
Speaker 1: At the time, they were all face-to-face. Well, we had

243
00:15:10,220 –> 00:15:13,020
Speaker 1: to turn the entire association on its head and to

244
00:15:13,060 –> 00:15:17,860
Speaker 1: become virtual, completely virtual within a hairbreadth’s notice. So we

245
00:15:17,900 –> 00:15:21,460
Speaker 1: weren’t necessarily interested in industry affairs at that time. We

246
00:15:21,480 –> 00:15:24,900
Speaker 1: were interested in ensuring that we could best serve our

247
00:15:24,960 –> 00:15:28,300
Speaker 1: members in what it was that they needed to navigate

248
00:15:28,350 –> 00:15:31,390
Speaker 1: their way out of the pandemic. And once you kind

249
00:15:31,410 –> 00:15:35,910
Speaker 1: of get out of a behavioral mode, it’s really tough

250
00:15:35,950 –> 00:15:38,740
Speaker 1: to crank it back up We had various changes in

251
00:15:38,770 –> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: leadership that took place. Marla Kaplowitz became the CEO of

252
00:15:43,060 –> 00:15:46,260
Speaker 1: the four A’s. David Cohen became the CEO of the IAB.

253
00:15:46,940 –> 00:15:49,500
Speaker 1: And they had their own respective agendas, and we had ours,

254
00:15:49,560 –> 00:15:53,620
Speaker 1: and we just kind of didn’t do what we used

255
00:15:53,660 –> 00:15:56,500
Speaker 1: to do. We still collaborated on various things like we

256
00:15:56,540 –> 00:15:59,480
Speaker 1: do now. We’re partners on Ad ID. We negotiate the

257
00:15:59,500 –> 00:16:02,750
Speaker 1: Screen Actors Guild contract together. We all serve on the

258
00:16:02,800 –> 00:16:06,700
Speaker 1: BBB board for self-regulation. So there are things that are

259
00:16:06,740 –> 00:16:09,980
Speaker 1: continuing and as well as servings on the board of

260
00:16:10,080 –> 00:16:14,780
Speaker 1: TAG and the Digital Advertising Alliance. So there was still collaboration,

261
00:16:15,540 –> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: but there was no new collaboration that was in fact

262
00:16:18,080 –> 00:16:22,710
Speaker 1: taking place. And with the spate of issues and challenges

263
00:16:22,750 –> 00:16:26,350
Speaker 1: that we have in our ecosystem still, and more that

264
00:16:26,390 –> 00:16:29,710
Speaker 1: are now coming out because of AI, we need to

265
00:16:30,250 –> 00:16:32,470
Speaker 1: get back in the same room again and have these

266
00:16:32,530 –> 00:16:35,830
Speaker 1: intelligent conversations and figure out how we’re going to tackle

267
00:16:35,850 –> 00:16:36,270
Speaker 1: the future.

268
00:16:36,890 –> 00:16:41,330
Speaker 3: Well, you seem to be a truth teller. So as

269
00:16:41,370 –> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 3: we’re catching you right now, what would you say is

270
00:16:45,900 –> 00:16:50,200
Speaker 3: one belief that people have about the marketing industry today

271
00:16:52,020 –> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 3: that they might not want to say out loud? What’s

272
00:16:55,160 –> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 3: the elephant in the room? And maybe you think it’s

273
00:16:58,300 –> 00:17:01,430
Speaker 3: the lack of collaboration or transparency or it’s something else.

274
00:17:01,670 –> 00:17:03,410
Speaker 1: That’s a great question. I think there are a couple

275
00:17:03,430 –> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 1: of things that are going on. I do think that

276
00:17:05,530 –> 00:17:08,669
Speaker 1: we are probably at the highest level of uncertainty as

277
00:17:08,710 –> 00:17:11,010
Speaker 1: an industry that we have ever been. And there are

278
00:17:11,030 –> 00:17:14,790
Speaker 1: a number of things that are really changing the foundation.

279
00:17:15,270 –> 00:17:18,690
Speaker 1: Economic uncertainty is one of the most important that I see.

280
00:17:19,190 –> 00:17:22,010
Speaker 1: Many marketers really don’t know which way is up. Tariffs

281
00:17:22,030 –> 00:17:26,350
Speaker 1: get introduced and change the ability to navigate in a

282
00:17:26,390 –> 00:17:30,950
Speaker 1: global economy. DEI is no longer a word or an

283
00:17:31,330 –> 00:17:35,429
Speaker 1: acronym that we could effectively use. that has changed the

284
00:17:35,490 –> 00:17:40,980
Speaker 1: way we navigate people in terms of having diverse organizations,

285
00:17:41,480 –> 00:17:46,460
Speaker 1: making belonging a concept that strewns throughout our respective organization

286
00:17:46,920 –> 00:17:51,180
Speaker 1: and make inclusion the centerpiece for the behavior that, in fact,

287
00:17:51,220 –> 00:17:54,510
Speaker 1: we want and need. And then AI has certainly changed

288
00:17:54,570 –> 00:17:57,290
Speaker 1: the rules of the game. How often have we heard

289
00:17:57,970 –> 00:18:02,230
Speaker 1: that AI is resulting in cut staffs I mean, the

290
00:18:02,369 –> 00:18:06,590
Speaker 1: agency community is being turned on its head because lower

291
00:18:06,650 –> 00:18:11,100
Speaker 1: level jobs are being eliminated, at least in the agency community,

292
00:18:11,140 –> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 1: but all throughout the ecosystem. We’re trying to find our

293
00:18:14,880 –> 00:18:19,160
Speaker 1: footing again. I don’t think it’s because people are acting badly.

294
00:18:19,780 –> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 1: I think it’s because we don’t know which way is forward.

295
00:18:23,720 –> 00:18:26,710
Speaker 1: And I think marketers in particular, I mean, I can

296
00:18:26,730 –> 00:18:29,810
Speaker 1: speak for them, that they’re trying to find that level

297
00:18:30,070 –> 00:18:33,610
Speaker 1: of certainty, but the world is changing at a far

298
00:18:33,670 –> 00:18:37,470
Speaker 1: more rapid pace than it ever has. In our own business,

299
00:18:37,690 –> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: we have done a lot to help our members through AI,

300
00:18:42,800 –> 00:18:47,860
Speaker 1: but six months after we’ve done things, they’re archaic, they’re antiquated.

301
00:18:47,900 –> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: We have to throw them out and reinvent because the

302
00:18:50,800 –> 00:18:53,659
Speaker 1: world is changing so rapidly. So I do think that

303
00:18:53,700 –> 00:18:57,460
Speaker 1: there is a slippery slope that is out there that

304
00:18:57,859 –> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: we all have to get close together and stabilize the

305
00:19:02,619 –> 00:19:07,500
Speaker 1: ecosystem so that, in fact, we can move forward decidedly.

306
00:19:08,320 –> 00:19:12,159
Speaker 1: And a lot of that goes to talent management. And

307
00:19:12,220 –> 00:19:16,540
Speaker 1: I say that because it has been probably my longest-term

308
00:19:16,580 –> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 1: criticism of our industry. There are many in the industry,

309
00:19:20,500 –> 00:19:24,109
Speaker 1: and marketers included, that say, ooh, our most important asset

310
00:19:24,140 –> 00:19:28,790
Speaker 1: is our people. Yet how many really provide them the

311
00:19:28,850 –> 00:19:31,770
Speaker 1: training and the development that they need to be able

312
00:19:31,830 –> 00:19:35,670
Speaker 1: to succeed. Very few. Maybe the big boys and girls

313
00:19:35,710 –> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: that are out there. But when you go throughout the industry,

314
00:19:38,859 –> 00:19:42,980
Speaker 1: especially when you have tons of economic uncertainty out there,

315
00:19:43,680 –> 00:19:46,810
Speaker 1: you are not getting your talent base up to the

316
00:19:46,910 –> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 1: skill set necessary to navigate in the digital and social

317
00:19:51,480 –> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: media environment and now in the AI environment. So we’re

318
00:19:55,900 –> 00:19:59,590
Speaker 1: all trying to catch up, catch our breath, and make

319
00:19:59,670 –> 00:20:02,570
Speaker 1: ourselves better so that, in fact, we have a greater

320
00:20:02,609 –> 00:20:03,450
Speaker 1: degree of certainty.

321
00:20:04,609 –> 00:20:07,090
Speaker 3: Well, Bob, we could pick your brain all day, but

322
00:20:07,130 –> 00:20:10,189
Speaker 3: we have to ask our famous last question. What’s the

323
00:20:10,210 –> 00:20:11,380
Speaker 3: bravest thing you’ve ever done?

324
00:20:11,970 –> 00:20:13,420
Speaker 1: Okay. Good question.

325
00:20:13,540 –> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 4: Bravest.

326
00:20:14,160 –> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 1: When I became CEO of the ANA, we were a

327
00:20:18,220 –> 00:20:23,379
Speaker 1: broken organization. We had only $ 28, 000 in the bank. We

328
00:20:23,400 –> 00:20:27,180
Speaker 1: only had 28 people in our organization. And we had

329
00:20:27,380 –> 00:20:34,010
Speaker 1: no plan. None whatsoever. Our future was precarious. Our ability

330
00:20:34,050 –> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 1: to make payrolls was terribly uncertain. And our future was…

331
00:20:39,350 –> 00:20:43,230
Speaker 1: had a limited shelf life if we continued on that path.

332
00:20:44,030 –> 00:20:47,290
Speaker 1: And what we had to do was to completely reinvent

333
00:20:47,330 –> 00:20:50,020
Speaker 1: the ANA. At the time, I had a board of

334
00:20:50,060 –> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 1: directors that put that job in my hands and trusted

335
00:20:53,060 –> 00:20:56,140
Speaker 1: me to be able to do that. And with the

336
00:20:56,340 –> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: remaining 27 other people I had, we had to figure

337
00:21:00,440 –> 00:21:04,409
Speaker 1: out a new path that allowed the ANA to be

338
00:21:04,490 –> 00:21:09,070
Speaker 1: able to grow, to be relevant to our industry, to

339
00:21:09,130 –> 00:21:12,710
Speaker 1: be able to provide a full slate of products and

340
00:21:12,770 –> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 1: services that were meaningful for our respective constituents, and to

341
00:21:17,740 –> 00:21:22,620
Speaker 1: assume a leadership position within our industry. That was not

342
00:21:22,660 –> 00:21:25,719
Speaker 1: for the faint of heart. Now, fortunately, I didn’t have

343
00:21:25,740 –> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: to do all of those in one year. But as

344
00:21:28,420 –> 00:21:31,740
Speaker 1: I said, the board provided me the opportunity to do

345
00:21:31,780 –> 00:21:35,350
Speaker 1: it over many years and to make brave decisions like

346
00:21:35,650 –> 00:21:40,140
Speaker 1: acquire five other trade associations, to fill out our portfolio

347
00:21:40,180 –> 00:21:43,340
Speaker 1: of products and services so that we could provide our

348
00:21:43,400 –> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 1: members with what it was that they needed in order

349
00:21:46,420 –> 00:21:50,330
Speaker 1: to succeed and to pursue what is our core mission,

350
00:21:50,750 –> 00:21:56,110
Speaker 1: which is branded business growth. And that was certainly no

351
00:21:56,190 –> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: easy challenge and required a lot of handholding, a lot

352
00:22:00,560 –> 00:22:03,340
Speaker 1: of courageous decisions that I look back on now. It’s

353
00:22:03,600 –> 00:22:05,940
Speaker 1: just kind of amazing. We did not go out of

354
00:22:05,980 –> 00:22:10,250
Speaker 1: business and lose our way But that, to me, was

355
00:22:11,090 –> 00:22:13,430
Speaker 1: what I would consider to be my bravest moment.

356
00:22:13,869 –> 00:22:15,689
Speaker 2: When you’re looking at the tunnel and you’re like, how

357
00:22:15,710 –> 00:22:18,830
Speaker 2: do I find my light? That’s a real tough one.

358
00:22:19,050 –> 00:22:21,010
Speaker 1: When you’re in the abyss, stop digging.

359
00:22:22,470 –> 00:22:25,820
Speaker 2: Well, we are very thankful that you figured your way

360
00:22:26,040 –> 00:22:29,580
Speaker 2: out of it and that the ANA has continued to

361
00:22:29,640 –> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: be a source of both inspiration and community and education

362
00:22:36,080 –> 00:22:38,820
Speaker 2: and so much more. The 20 or so years that

363
00:22:39,240 –> 00:22:42,540
Speaker 2: I’ve been part of this journey, I am super grateful

364
00:22:42,580 –> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: to you and to the entire A & A organization

365
00:22:45,320 –> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: for everything that they’ve done to help shine a light

366
00:22:48,020 –> 00:22:49,940
Speaker 2: on what needs to be true and then create that

367
00:22:49,960 –> 00:22:52,100
Speaker 2: path to get us there. So thank you, Bob.

368
00:22:52,180 –> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sarah. You don’t know what an influence you

369
00:22:54,770 –> 00:22:57,420
Speaker 1: were to me personally, so I thank you. for everything

370
00:22:57,440 –> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: that you’ve delivered in return.

371
00:22:59,100 –> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: All right. Well, now that that love fest is over,

372
00:23:01,140 –> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: I hope you guys enjoy future episodes of Brave Commerce.

373
00:23:07,880 –> 00:23:09,500
Speaker 3: If you like what you heard and you want to

374
00:23:09,560 –> 00:23:14,220
Speaker 3: keep going into advertising’s history to figure out what repeats itself,

375
00:23:14,710 –> 00:23:17,390
Speaker 3: go check out an episode we did about a year

376
00:23:17,430 –> 00:23:21,060
Speaker 3: ago with Rashad, or go check out a recent episode

377
00:23:21,100 –> 00:23:24,980
Speaker 3: we did with Jim, who’s now a professor at Northwestern.

378
00:23:25,340 –> 00:23:27,260
Speaker 3: If you like what you heard, tell a friend, write

379
00:23:27,300 –> 00:23:28,620
Speaker 3: a review. Thanks for listening.

380
00:23:45,840 –> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 4: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

381
00:23:49,840 –> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 4: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

382
00:23:52,660 –> 00:23:56,100
Speaker 4: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

383
00:23:56,119 –> 00:23:59,820
Speaker 4: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

384
00:23:59,859 –> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 4: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

385
00:24:02,240 –> 00:24:05,369
Speaker 4: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

386
00:24:05,570 –> 00:24:08,830
Speaker 4: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

387
00:24:08,869 –> 00:24:11,740
Speaker 4: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

388
00:24:11,760 –> 00:24:14,230
Speaker 4: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

389
00:24:14,290 –> 00:24:17,810
Speaker 4: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

390
00:24:18,010 –> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 4: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.