1
00:00:02,350 –> 00:00:04,990
Speaker 1: One thing I’ll say, I can’t say enough about my

2
00:00:05,350 –> 00:00:08,790
Speaker 1: colleagues and my team is that we are very fast

3
00:00:08,830 –> 00:00:13,270
Speaker 1: to market. We are management owned. We don’t have shareholders

4
00:00:13,350 –> 00:00:17,040
Speaker 1: to answer to. We operate in a very, very quick fashion.

5
00:00:17,570 –> 00:00:19,980
Speaker 1: And we have people who have been in their roles

6
00:00:20,040 –> 00:00:21,959
Speaker 1: for a long time on the winemaking side.

7
00:00:22,000 –> 00:00:23,940
Speaker 2: So we’re just very, very quick.

8
00:00:24,540 –> 00:00:27,420
Speaker 1: I’ve gotten things to market in under six months, and

9
00:00:27,460 –> 00:00:30,650
Speaker 1: that’s because we’re not scared. We don’t have a lot

10
00:00:30,730 –> 00:00:33,729
Speaker 1: of boundaries to cross in a way that I’ve seen

11
00:00:33,810 –> 00:00:36,950
Speaker 1: at some other companies I’ve worked at. So one thing

12
00:00:36,970 –> 00:00:39,270
Speaker 1: is just a credit to the company for being very,

13
00:00:39,310 –> 00:00:39,809
Speaker 1: very quick.

14
00:00:42,950 –> 00:00:45,170
Speaker 3: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce.

15
00:00:45,810 –> 00:00:46,850
Speaker 2: I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

16
00:00:46,970 –> 00:00:49,650
Speaker 4: And I’m Rachel Tippegraff. And this is a show that

17
00:00:49,710 –> 00:01:01,940
Speaker 4: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah,

18
00:01:01,980 –> 00:01:07,380
Speaker 4: if you had to think about CMO talent, how often

19
00:01:07,540 –> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 4: do you think they follow sort of traditional vertical career

20
00:01:13,040 –> 00:01:17,270
Speaker 4: path where they’re in CPG, they stay in CPG? And

21
00:01:17,310 –> 00:01:21,069
Speaker 4: how often do you think they jump between industry verticals?

22
00:01:21,730 –> 00:01:24,790
Speaker 3: Are you asking about the way people hire or the

23
00:01:24,810 –> 00:01:26,190
Speaker 3: way people design their career?

24
00:01:26,410 –> 00:01:27,690
Speaker 4: The way people design their careers.

25
00:01:28,160 –> 00:01:31,040
Speaker 3: I think it’s interestingly split. And the question is, which

26
00:01:31,120 –> 00:01:35,190
Speaker 3: one is feeding whom? Let’s just take CPG. Are CPG

27
00:01:36,930 –> 00:01:39,770
Speaker 3: marketers looking for other people who have been in CPG?

28
00:01:39,790 –> 00:01:42,410
Speaker 3: You and I have talked about the, in many instances,

29
00:01:42,790 –> 00:01:45,950
Speaker 3: the PepsiCo alumni, the Kraft Heinz alumni, the L’Oreal alumni.

30
00:01:46,390 –> 00:01:49,580
Speaker 3: Do you just want to plug people from that space

31
00:01:49,640 –> 00:01:53,340
Speaker 3: because they know that space? Or do you take somebody

32
00:01:53,380 –> 00:01:55,860
Speaker 3: who doesn’t have the CPG experience, but maybe has worked

33
00:01:56,100 –> 00:02:00,750
Speaker 3: in an adjacent environment and bring somebody in. And I

34
00:02:00,790 –> 00:02:05,310
Speaker 3: think that in general, CPG is a lower risk tolerance space.

35
00:02:06,220 –> 00:02:09,940
Speaker 3: So therefore they try to hire from within, in which

36
00:02:09,980 –> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 3: case then people are developing their careers and they’re realizing

37
00:02:12,780 –> 00:02:15,760
Speaker 3: it’s insular. You got to stay within the vertical. I

38
00:02:15,820 –> 00:02:19,220
Speaker 3: remember you and I had a guest on Thomas who

39
00:02:19,410 –> 00:02:20,770
Speaker 3: at the time was at Chobani.

40
00:02:21,210 –> 00:02:21,430
Speaker 1: Yeah.

41
00:02:21,750 –> 00:02:23,230
Speaker 2: He came to us from Uber.

42
00:02:23,250 –> 00:02:23,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

43
00:02:24,250 –> 00:02:26,290
Speaker 3: Went to Chobani and then went from there to Intuit.

44
00:02:27,430 –> 00:02:31,450
Speaker 3: And that was surprising to us, right? Like you came

45
00:02:31,490 –> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 3: from a different, a very different space and then not

46
00:02:35,540 –> 00:02:41,050
Speaker 3: Uber Eats, Uber, Uber. And then came to show Bonnie a,

47
00:02:41,419 –> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 3: you know, perishable product with a different kind of culture

48
00:02:46,370 –> 00:02:49,010
Speaker 3: and then got out of CPG. But I think it’s

49
00:02:49,050 –> 00:02:51,350
Speaker 3: as much the people who make the career decisions as

50
00:02:51,430 –> 00:02:53,690
Speaker 3: it is the people who make the hiring decisions.

51
00:02:54,630 –> 00:02:57,390
Speaker 4: No, you’re totally right, which is a story we’re about

52
00:02:57,430 –> 00:03:00,110
Speaker 4: to hear from Helen at The Wine Group, where she

53
00:03:00,169 –> 00:03:04,340
Speaker 4: talks about literally her first conversation with the recruiter when

54
00:03:04,360 –> 00:03:06,920
Speaker 4: they reached out to her because she does not come

55
00:03:07,419 –> 00:03:11,619
Speaker 4: from the traditional Bevel background. So without further ado, let’s

56
00:03:11,680 –> 00:03:15,980
Speaker 4: bring Helen onto the show. Today, we are very excited

57
00:03:16,000 –> 00:03:18,680
Speaker 4: to have Helen Kurtz, the Chief Marketing Officer at The

58
00:03:18,760 –> 00:03:19,359
Speaker 4: Wine Group.

59
00:03:19,580 –> 00:03:20,140
Speaker 2: Onto the show.

60
00:03:20,160 –> 00:03:20,400
Speaker 3: Hello, Helen.

61
00:03:20,820 –> 00:03:23,410
Speaker 2: Hello, Helen. Hi, great to be here.

62
00:03:23,770 –> 00:03:27,630
Speaker 4: So, you know, looking at your LinkedIn, it’s actually fairly

63
00:03:27,720 –> 00:03:29,560
Speaker 4: reflective of a lot of guests that we’ve had in

64
00:03:29,620 –> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 4: this show. You’ve gone from fruit snacks to cereal to

65
00:03:33,720 –> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 4: chicken and now to wine. So it’s a full meal,

66
00:03:37,520 –> 00:03:41,220
Speaker 4: your career journey. But like, talk about how you worked

67
00:03:41,260 –> 00:03:43,980
Speaker 4: your way up to the bed owl category.

68
00:03:44,060 –> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I’d love to take some credit for

69
00:03:46,200 –> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: any kind of thought that went into it. But, you know,

70
00:03:48,440 –> 00:03:52,670
Speaker 1: like most things, it’s sort of, happened in part luck

71
00:03:52,730 –> 00:03:56,450
Speaker 1: and in part, I guess, some strategy. But I was

72
00:03:56,550 –> 00:04:01,660
Speaker 1: lucky enough to get recruited from business school to General Mills. Actually,

73
00:04:01,680 –> 00:04:03,619
Speaker 1: you left out the most important part, which was that

74
00:04:03,640 –> 00:04:07,720
Speaker 1: my internship was at Colgate-Palmolive. So I have toothbrushing at

75
00:04:07,760 –> 00:04:10,040
Speaker 1: the end of it all. So a full circle moment.

76
00:04:10,320 –> 00:04:13,570
Speaker 1: But yes, I was recruited into CPG at General Mills,

77
00:04:13,850 –> 00:04:18,930
Speaker 1: had an amazing 20 years there. And then I left there.

78
00:04:18,990 –> 00:04:22,460
Speaker 1: I was exited out as often happens when you get

79
00:04:22,480 –> 00:04:24,659
Speaker 1: to the tippity top of the pyramid. So I left

80
00:04:24,720 –> 00:04:28,790
Speaker 1: as a VP and moved to California to be CMO

81
00:04:28,950 –> 00:04:32,909
Speaker 1: at Foster Farms, which is a leading chicken and poultry

82
00:04:32,950 –> 00:04:34,170
Speaker 1: company on the West Coast.

83
00:04:35,110 –> 00:04:36,630
Speaker 2: And then we sold the company.

84
00:04:36,650 –> 00:04:40,670
Speaker 1: I went to be C-suite at Calava, which does fresh

85
00:04:40,730 –> 00:04:44,099
Speaker 1: fruit and vegetables and guacamole and avocados.

86
00:04:44,890 –> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 2: From there, I joined the wine group. So yeah, really

87
00:04:48,140 –> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 2: filled that meal out.

88
00:04:50,120 –> 00:04:54,890
Speaker 3: What made you make that most recent change? I mean, gosh,

89
00:04:54,930 –> 00:04:57,390
Speaker 3: there’s a lot to unpack starting with that internship. But

90
00:04:57,430 –> 00:05:01,390
Speaker 3: like when you made that pivot to the wine group,

91
00:05:01,790 –> 00:05:05,770
Speaker 3: especially coming out of more recently, some more fresh brands,

92
00:05:06,230 –> 00:05:08,490
Speaker 3: what made you say, you know what, this is the

93
00:05:08,550 –> 00:05:09,590
Speaker 3: right opportunity for me?

94
00:05:10,450 –> 00:05:14,380
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, candidly, the CEO who had recruited me said,

95
00:05:14,990 –> 00:05:19,049
Speaker 1: He left and, you know, as sometimes happens, it wasn’t

96
00:05:19,089 –> 00:05:22,229
Speaker 1: the best fit with the new CEO. So I chose

97
00:05:22,290 –> 00:05:25,750
Speaker 1: to leave and was just, I feel so lucky at

98
00:05:25,810 –> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 1: the timing of this, but the wine group was looking

99
00:05:28,260 –> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: for that CMO role. And I will tell you that

100
00:05:32,020 –> 00:05:35,040
Speaker 1: a recruiter called me about it and I was quick

101
00:05:35,100 –> 00:05:38,380
Speaker 1: to sort of dismiss it because I said, well, I’m

102
00:05:38,420 –> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 1: not the right choice because I’m not really a big drinker.

103
00:05:41,450 –> 00:05:45,430
Speaker 1: I don’t know the wine category at all. And he said, no, no,

104
00:05:45,490 –> 00:05:48,610
Speaker 1: they want someone who knows marketing. And I said, well,

105
00:05:48,790 –> 00:05:51,010
Speaker 1: I do know that. And so I was really intrigued.

106
00:05:51,050 –> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 1: First of all, I really give the company so much

107
00:05:53,130 –> 00:05:56,900
Speaker 1: credit for not looking. There are plenty of amazing wine

108
00:05:56,960 –> 00:05:59,740
Speaker 1: marketers and the fact that they were open to someone

109
00:05:59,800 –> 00:06:04,140
Speaker 1: who didn’t have the category experience, but really knew the

110
00:06:04,200 –> 00:06:06,849
Speaker 1: function very well. And I think they were looking for

111
00:06:06,890 –> 00:06:09,550
Speaker 1: a strong leader too. So I give a lot of

112
00:06:09,589 –> 00:06:12,150
Speaker 1: credit to them for being open-minded. And it’s been just

113
00:06:12,190 –> 00:06:16,390
Speaker 1: a really, really wonderful fit and experience for me. It’s

114
00:06:16,529 –> 00:06:18,469
Speaker 1: absolutely one of my favorite jobs I’ve had.

115
00:06:18,750 –> 00:06:19,570
Speaker 2: That’s wonderful.

116
00:06:19,650 –> 00:06:22,670
Speaker 3: So it is a credit to them to not just

117
00:06:22,730 –> 00:06:25,370
Speaker 3: kind of go for the square peg, square hole. A

118
00:06:25,390 –> 00:06:28,290
Speaker 3: little while back, we had one of the top buyers

119
00:06:28,610 –> 00:06:32,250
Speaker 3: at Total Wine talking to us and his background is

120
00:06:32,510 –> 00:06:36,490
Speaker 3: at Kraft Foods. So I do see some bit of

121
00:06:36,529 –> 00:06:38,870
Speaker 3: a trend, but when we asked him this question.

122
00:06:39,450 –> 00:06:40,390
Speaker 2: We got one answer.

123
00:06:40,430 –> 00:06:42,529
Speaker 3: I’m curious to hear yours. What do you think is

124
00:06:42,550 –> 00:06:48,050
Speaker 3: the biggest difference between working in CPG versus wine? Competition

125
00:06:48,070 –> 00:06:53,780
Speaker 3: is very, very different. The choices are abundant. So how

126
00:06:53,800 –> 00:06:57,539
Speaker 3: do you think about the differences and how your superpowers

127
00:06:57,580 –> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 3: are coming to play here?

128
00:06:58,839 –> 00:06:59,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that.

129
00:06:59,600 –> 00:07:01,820
Speaker 1: And I know him, we had a nice little bonding

130
00:07:01,839 –> 00:07:04,860
Speaker 1: moment over our CPG background. It is First of all,

131
00:07:04,900 –> 00:07:08,680
Speaker 1: such an incredible background. I feel so grateful for having

132
00:07:09,020 –> 00:07:13,250
Speaker 1: learned so much in, you know, really the 27 years

133
00:07:13,320 –> 00:07:16,610
Speaker 1: I was in CPG. So it’s such an incredible foundation.

134
00:07:17,770 –> 00:07:19,870
Speaker 1: And there is a huge difference. So, you know, of course,

135
00:07:19,910 –> 00:07:23,870
Speaker 1: the biggest difference is because of prohibition, there is a

136
00:07:23,910 –> 00:07:27,250
Speaker 1: three-tiered system, like suppliers, like the wine group are not

137
00:07:27,410 –> 00:07:31,420
Speaker 1: able to sell directly to retailers like Total Wine & More.

138
00:07:31,630 –> 00:07:33,420
Speaker 2: And so we have a distributor in the middle.

139
00:07:34,430 –> 00:07:40,060
Speaker 1: That can be hard in that it’s another layer, another gatekeeper.

140
00:07:40,080 –> 00:07:41,740
Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of when I was

141
00:07:41,820 –> 00:07:44,500
Speaker 1: on Fruit Snacks and you’ve got to really market.

142
00:07:44,280 –> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 2: To moms to get to kids. But it can also

143
00:07:46,500 –> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 2: be really wonderful.

144
00:07:47,560 –> 00:07:51,980
Speaker 1: Because the distributors can be fantastic partners like we have

145
00:07:52,060 –> 00:07:56,220
Speaker 1: in Southern Grillizers or Allied and real collaborators. So that’s

146
00:07:56,490 –> 00:07:59,170
Speaker 1: the biggest one. The other one is, to your point,

147
00:07:59,430 –> 00:08:02,570
Speaker 1: so much competition. I mean, the most competition I ever

148
00:08:02,650 –> 00:08:09,020
Speaker 1: had in CPG was maybe 10 other, you know, competitors.

149
00:08:09,220 –> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: And I was always on brands that were number one

150
00:08:12,180 –> 00:08:15,550
Speaker 1: or number two. And in wine, you know, it’s rare

151
00:08:15,580 –> 00:08:20,010
Speaker 1: that you have fewer than 20 SKUs or competitors, brands

152
00:08:20,230 –> 00:08:24,250
Speaker 1: against which you compete. And so that creates a really

153
00:08:24,290 –> 00:08:28,020
Speaker 1: different dynamic. The consumer has loads of choices. There’s far

154
00:08:28,080 –> 00:08:31,970
Speaker 1: less loyalty. And there’s a lot of sort of promiscuousness

155
00:08:32,050 –> 00:08:35,090
Speaker 1: in the category and that people want to try different things.

156
00:08:35,210 –> 00:08:39,340
Speaker 1: And some see it as a commodity, right? So they just,

157
00:08:39,480 –> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: you know, move around a lot. And I think the

158
00:08:41,860 –> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 1: final thing maybe is that just the size of the

159
00:08:44,520 –> 00:08:46,920
Speaker 1: marketing you’re able to do is a lot smaller.

160
00:08:47,040 –> 00:08:49,220
Speaker 2: So think of the actual SKU itself.

161
00:08:49,300 –> 00:08:52,230
Speaker 1: It’s tiny, like you have a tiny little footprint on

162
00:08:52,250 –> 00:08:54,210
Speaker 1: a wine bottle, a 750 bottle.

163
00:08:55,610 –> 00:08:57,390
Speaker 2: You know, one of our brands is Franzia, which is

164
00:08:57,429 –> 00:08:57,870
Speaker 2: a box.

165
00:08:57,910 –> 00:09:00,500
Speaker 1: So that’s such a privilege to, or just an advantage

166
00:09:00,540 –> 00:09:03,140
Speaker 1: to have all that room to talk about it, but

167
00:09:03,160 –> 00:09:07,060
Speaker 1: you have far less space. And so the packaging becomes

168
00:09:07,140 –> 00:09:11,179
Speaker 1: really important and it becomes harder to really call out

169
00:09:11,340 –> 00:09:15,940
Speaker 1: differentiators and benefits. So there are lots of differences, but

170
00:09:15,960 –> 00:09:18,830
Speaker 1: there are lots of similarities too. And I can talk

171
00:09:18,870 –> 00:09:21,490
Speaker 1: to that, but, you know, innovation is a really big

172
00:09:21,530 –> 00:09:27,240
Speaker 1: theme in both areas, good marketing, great, communication strategies and

173
00:09:27,260 –> 00:09:30,540
Speaker 1: really being transparent in how you talk about things and

174
00:09:30,920 –> 00:09:32,780
Speaker 1: the way in which you reach consumers. There are lots

175
00:09:32,820 –> 00:09:36,359
Speaker 1: of great interplays that I’ve been able to take advantage.

176
00:09:36,020 –> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 2: Of and sort of bring some fresh thinking on.

177
00:09:38,380 –> 00:09:41,660
Speaker 4: On top of everything that you just said, there’s obviously

178
00:09:41,720 –> 00:09:46,260
Speaker 4: also the macro backdrop, which impacts CPG as well. But,

179
00:09:46,870 –> 00:09:49,110
Speaker 4: you know, Bev-Elk as a category has definitely been under

180
00:09:49,140 –> 00:09:53,670
Speaker 4: the spotlight as consumers change their taste preferences. You know,

181
00:09:53,690 –> 00:09:57,219
Speaker 4: if we look at like the last, five years of BevAlc,

182
00:09:57,400 –> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 4: there’s been a big change in growth. In fact, in

183
00:10:00,200 –> 00:10:03,420
Speaker 4: many areas, the category is declining, especially in an area

184
00:10:03,460 –> 00:10:07,020
Speaker 4: like wine. You’re open-minded enough that I can ask you

185
00:10:07,059 –> 00:10:10,680
Speaker 4: this question, which is, do you think that the BevAlc

186
00:10:10,760 –> 00:10:13,380
Speaker 4: category is going to be around 20 years from now?

187
00:10:14,190 –> 00:10:14,510
Speaker 3: Yeah.

188
00:10:14,670 –> 00:10:17,230
Speaker 1: I mean, I love a provocative question like that. So

189
00:10:17,429 –> 00:10:20,340
Speaker 1: thank you. And I have no doubt that it’ll be around.

190
00:10:20,480 –> 00:10:24,300
Speaker 1: I think it’ll look different and it is shocking. I

191
00:10:24,760 –> 00:10:28,089
Speaker 1: think after having enjoyed so much growth for so long,

192
00:10:28,140 –> 00:10:32,390
Speaker 1: the category is really reeling in that it’s down quite

193
00:10:32,470 –> 00:10:34,990
Speaker 1: significantly and it is a different world.

194
00:10:35,670 –> 00:10:37,130
Speaker 2: Happily, I have a lot.

195
00:10:36,990 –> 00:10:39,730
Speaker 1: Of experience in that because guess what was declining before

196
00:10:39,770 –> 00:10:40,570
Speaker 1: I came to wine?

197
00:10:40,670 –> 00:10:41,309
Speaker 2: CPG.

198
00:10:41,910 –> 00:10:45,150
Speaker 1: And so I really, I take it very much in

199
00:10:45,290 –> 00:10:49,270
Speaker 1: stride and I’m just, have a very curious stance around

200
00:10:49,390 –> 00:10:51,590
Speaker 1: it in that like, well, what’s driving us and how

201
00:10:51,630 –> 00:10:54,969
Speaker 1: can we adapt? This is someone else’s words, but I

202
00:10:55,030 –> 00:11:04,209
Speaker 1: love this expression that wine is one of many mood modulators, caffeine, chocolate, drugs, exercise,

203
00:11:04,830 –> 00:11:08,470
Speaker 1: all these things fall into mood modulators and consumers are

204
00:11:08,670 –> 00:11:12,030
Speaker 1: always going to be interested in that. We partake myself

205
00:11:12,120 –> 00:11:14,860
Speaker 1: in some of those, right? So I think there’s always

206
00:11:14,900 –> 00:11:17,310
Speaker 1: gonna be a place for it. And the beauty of.

207
00:11:17,410 –> 00:11:22,449
Speaker 2: Wine is it’s not just a product. It’s also a feeling.

208
00:11:22,670 –> 00:11:27,390
Speaker 2: It’s a connection. It’s a way in which to drive

209
00:11:27,630 –> 00:11:28,890
Speaker 2: relationships and rapport.

210
00:11:28,960 –> 00:11:32,340
Speaker 1: And it has a really special place in people’s sort

211
00:11:32,400 –> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 1: of gestalt. And I think the opportunity is to bring

212
00:11:35,280 –> 00:11:39,059
Speaker 1: more of that back, even as the product itself is changing.

213
00:11:39,120 –> 00:11:42,059
Speaker 1: So I’m quite optimistic about wine. I think it’s going

214
00:11:42,100 –> 00:11:44,990
Speaker 1: to be a hard slog for the next few years

215
00:11:45,030 –> 00:11:49,020
Speaker 1: in alcohol overall. But there’s a lot of opportunity too,

216
00:11:49,080 –> 00:11:52,700
Speaker 1: I think, with Gen Z is drinking very differently, but

217
00:11:52,980 –> 00:11:55,850
Speaker 1: that doesn’t scare me. They’re very efficient. They want to

218
00:11:56,179 –> 00:11:58,550
Speaker 1: have high elk so they don’t have to drink as much.

219
00:11:58,710 –> 00:12:01,690
Speaker 1: We can deliver that. They want high fruit and high flavor.

220
00:12:02,090 –> 00:12:06,410
Speaker 1: We can deliver that. With GLP-1s, that’s so interesting. That’s

221
00:12:06,610 –> 00:12:11,959
Speaker 1: a really nascent thing to be thinking about and figuring out.

222
00:12:12,080 –> 00:12:15,370
Speaker 1: And I think similarly, We have a lot of opportunity

223
00:12:15,410 –> 00:12:19,770
Speaker 1: in smaller serving sizes or more transparency. Consumers are getting

224
00:12:19,790 –> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 1: more interested in what’s actually in everything that they drink

225
00:12:24,559 –> 00:12:27,380
Speaker 1: or eat. I think it’s just about meeting them where

226
00:12:27,420 –> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 1: they are and not getting too doom and gloom about it,

227
00:12:31,580 –> 00:12:35,219
Speaker 1: but rather really finding a way to serve their needs

228
00:12:35,500 –> 00:12:38,819
Speaker 1: and recognize there are different occasions at which we can

229
00:12:39,080 –> 00:12:39,620
Speaker 1: come to play.

230
00:12:40,160 –> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 3: So you just said something very interesting.

231
00:12:42,460 –> 00:12:43,960
Speaker 2: About size.

232
00:12:44,580 –> 00:12:49,559
Speaker 3: And that hits real hard because at CPG, PPA and

233
00:12:49,760 –> 00:12:52,449
Speaker 3: assortment strategy is very natural.

234
00:12:52,760 –> 00:12:53,810
Speaker 2: That’s a very natural thing.

235
00:12:53,910 –> 00:12:57,230
Speaker 3: And yet for hundreds, if not thousands of years, maybe

236
00:12:57,250 –> 00:13:01,250
Speaker 3: not thousands, but certainly hundreds, it’s the 750.

237
00:13:01,250 –> 00:13:04,410
Speaker 2: And getting a 375 or even, you know, the little

238
00:13:04,470 –> 00:13:05,469
Speaker 2: ones you get on the.

239
00:13:05,390 –> 00:13:09,719
Speaker 3: Plane, you know, that’s very unusual and harder to come

240
00:13:09,780 –> 00:13:12,670
Speaker 3: by At the same time, there’s like this barrier of

241
00:13:12,690 –> 00:13:14,030
Speaker 3: do I want to open up a bottom line?

242
00:13:14,270 –> 00:13:14,500
Speaker 1: Right.

243
00:13:14,790 –> 00:13:19,420
Speaker 3: So how do you take those CPG mindsets and apply

244
00:13:19,480 –> 00:13:21,420
Speaker 3: it to say, you know what, I know we haven’t

245
00:13:21,460 –> 00:13:24,960
Speaker 3: been doing this, but would we consider maybe having more

246
00:13:25,000 –> 00:13:29,620
Speaker 3: of our assortment run on a 375 or something like that?

247
00:13:30,179 –> 00:13:32,230
Speaker 1: Again, sort of in the spirit of like never waste

248
00:13:32,250 –> 00:13:35,449
Speaker 1: a good crisis, there is a real openness right now

249
00:13:35,510 –> 00:13:39,510
Speaker 1: to trying different things and being innovative in both product

250
00:13:39,550 –> 00:13:43,110
Speaker 1: and packaging. So yeah, it hasn’t been hard to really

251
00:13:43,230 –> 00:13:46,229
Speaker 1: think through that. I think the tricky thing is just

252
00:13:46,270 –> 00:13:50,310
Speaker 1: consumers are talking a lot more about wanting different sizes.

253
00:13:49,929 –> 00:13:52,030
Speaker 2: Than they’re actually behaving in that way.

254
00:13:52,090 –> 00:13:55,650
Speaker 1: So we see that those smaller sizes aren’t turning at

255
00:13:55,690 –> 00:13:59,710
Speaker 1: the same velocity as a 750 because it’s a new behavior.

256
00:14:00,230 –> 00:14:03,670
Speaker 1: But as I sit here with a Diet Coke in

257
00:14:03,710 –> 00:14:07,100
Speaker 1: a can, I always am saying like, there’s no way

258
00:14:07,130 –> 00:14:09,460
Speaker 1: I’d ever drink a Diet Coke out of a two liter, right?

259
00:14:09,580 –> 00:14:13,059
Speaker 1: And so I think consumers, I even hate the word

260
00:14:13,080 –> 00:14:15,620
Speaker 1: consumers in some ways because it implies they’re just a

261
00:14:15,679 –> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 1: mouth that we’re feeding. It’s like, we’re all consumers, right?

262
00:14:18,440 –> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 1: And we all eat and drink things from different categories.

263
00:14:21,800 –> 00:14:25,240
Speaker 1: And so that kind of transference and thinking about, I

264
00:14:25,560 –> 00:14:28,180
Speaker 1: just don’t always want four servings. I want it in

265
00:14:28,420 –> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 1: one or I want it portable or I want it

266
00:14:30,260 –> 00:14:33,460
Speaker 1: on the go is something that I think the industry

267
00:14:33,660 –> 00:14:37,660
Speaker 1: and retailers are more and more open to. What’s interesting again,

268
00:14:37,700 –> 00:14:42,070
Speaker 1: back to prohibition is that we actually have restrictions on

269
00:14:42,270 –> 00:14:45,590
Speaker 1: which sizes we can be in. We can’t do the,

270
00:14:45,630 –> 00:14:48,950
Speaker 1: you mentioned PPA, we can’t just shave down ounces or

271
00:14:49,030 –> 00:14:53,250
Speaker 1: liters because there are certain sizes that we can be in.

272
00:14:53,670 –> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 1: But in those required sizes, we can certainly bring innovation

273
00:14:57,460 –> 00:15:01,260
Speaker 1: in terms of can or bottle or different size shape

274
00:15:01,440 –> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: packs that will serve the consumer in those different occasions

275
00:15:05,420 –> 00:15:10,020
Speaker 1: in which they want to drink. It’s We really want

276
00:15:10,040 –> 00:15:13,190
Speaker 1: to be present wherever they’re interested in bringing us.

277
00:15:13,610 –> 00:15:16,750
Speaker 4: You talked about such a, I think, like a wide

278
00:15:16,850 –> 00:15:19,850
Speaker 4: range of product innovation opportunities. We just dove a little

279
00:15:19,870 –> 00:15:24,170
Speaker 4: bit deeper into packaging and sizes. You also talked about

280
00:15:24,250 –> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 4: flavor profile, alcohol count. All those things have a long

281
00:15:30,340 –> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 4: timeline to get to market. Yet the speed of change

282
00:15:34,480 –> 00:15:38,830
Speaker 4: is happening much faster than what product development time takes.

283
00:15:39,460 –> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 4: So internally, how is the wine group approaching the risks

284
00:15:44,800 –> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 4: and the benefits of product innovation in the hopes that

285
00:15:47,900 –> 00:15:49,460
Speaker 4: by the time they get the product to the shelf,

286
00:15:49,560 –> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 4: those trends are still holding?

287
00:15:50,960 –> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s a great question in terms of speed to market,

288
00:15:55,280 –> 00:15:57,960
Speaker 1: because that really is part of the trick, right? Is

289
00:15:58,040 –> 00:16:01,780
Speaker 1: being either a leader or really being fast to follow.

290
00:16:02,790 –> 00:16:05,430
Speaker 1: One thing I’ll say, I can’t say enough about my

291
00:16:05,790 –> 00:16:09,229
Speaker 1: colleagues and my team is that we are very fast

292
00:16:09,270 –> 00:16:09,730
Speaker 1: to market.

293
00:16:10,190 –> 00:16:11,730
Speaker 2: We are management owned.

294
00:16:12,030 –> 00:16:15,550
Speaker 1: We don’t have shareholders to answer to. We operate in

295
00:16:15,580 –> 00:16:19,180
Speaker 1: a very, very quick fashion. And we have people who

296
00:16:19,220 –> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 1: have been in their roles for a long time on

297
00:16:21,500 –> 00:16:25,140
Speaker 1: the winemaking side. So we’re just very, very quick. I’ve

298
00:16:25,180 –> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 1: gotten things to market in under six months, and that’s

299
00:16:28,180 –> 00:16:31,250
Speaker 1: because we’re not scared. We don’t have a lot of

300
00:16:31,510 –> 00:16:34,310
Speaker 1: boundaries to cross in a way that I’ve seen at

301
00:16:34,450 –> 00:16:37,460
Speaker 1: some other companies I’ve worked at. So one thing is

302
00:16:37,720 –> 00:16:40,260
Speaker 1: just a credit to the company for being very, very quick.

303
00:16:40,980 –> 00:16:44,740
Speaker 1: I think too, we’re willing to experiment and we like

304
00:16:44,780 –> 00:16:47,230
Speaker 1: to do things to bring us confidence. So we do

305
00:16:47,250 –> 00:16:52,430
Speaker 1: a lot of consumer testing, but we don’t necessarily wait

306
00:16:52,490 –> 00:16:55,910
Speaker 1: for a lot of market test data or things to

307
00:16:56,010 –> 00:16:58,350
Speaker 1: come back before we just go out with things. We

308
00:16:58,430 –> 00:17:01,410
Speaker 1: know that that speed of innovation is really, really critical.

309
00:17:02,050 –> 00:17:04,780
Speaker 1: So all to say, it is rare that it takes

310
00:17:04,859 –> 00:17:07,659
Speaker 1: a full year to get out in market and certainly

311
00:17:07,700 –> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 1: not to, we go quickly. The trick is always, you know,

312
00:17:11,080 –> 00:17:13,820
Speaker 1: hitting the trend at the right time. And one of

313
00:17:13,840 –> 00:17:16,100
Speaker 1: the things we’ve been working on is moving earlier on

314
00:17:16,119 –> 00:17:20,050
Speaker 1: the trend curve, which is to say, you know, let’s

315
00:17:20,119 –> 00:17:23,550
Speaker 1: try things like we have an Agua Fresca coming out Now,

316
00:17:23,630 –> 00:17:28,070
Speaker 1: Agrafresca is national, the non-spiked version at Chipotle. So it’s

317
00:17:28,109 –> 00:17:31,850
Speaker 1: not an unknown thing, but really there’s only one competitor

318
00:17:32,010 –> 00:17:36,010
Speaker 1: of any scale in market. And so hitting the market

319
00:17:36,330 –> 00:17:39,730
Speaker 1: at that point is right. Or we have a spiked

320
00:17:39,859 –> 00:17:43,860
Speaker 1: coconut water coming out, or we have a dirty soda

321
00:17:44,300 –> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 1: coming out. So those are really nascent trends that we

322
00:17:48,240 –> 00:17:51,860
Speaker 1: can come early on and figure out the right route

323
00:17:51,900 –> 00:17:55,580
Speaker 1: to market the right way. to get quickly into market

324
00:17:56,119 –> 00:18:00,659
Speaker 1: while also being confident by the time we go national. Again,

325
00:18:00,740 –> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 1: I think it always has to do, you know, we

326
00:18:03,260 –> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 1: have a stage gate process. We have a similar vetting

327
00:18:06,119 –> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 1: process to all the places I’ve worked, but we have

328
00:18:09,000 –> 00:18:13,340
Speaker 1: a management team that really is leaning forward on knowing

329
00:18:13,380 –> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: we need to do things differently in this environment. And

330
00:18:16,100 –> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: that kind of permission helps tremendously.

331
00:18:19,340 –> 00:18:22,770
Speaker 3: Makes a lot of sense. And It seems like if

332
00:18:22,810 –> 00:18:25,070
Speaker 3: you don’t get out of trends early, even if you’re

333
00:18:25,150 –> 00:18:26,790
Speaker 3: able to do all of that work in such a

334
00:18:26,830 –> 00:18:29,629
Speaker 3: short period of time on innovation, you still got to

335
00:18:29,670 –> 00:18:33,990
Speaker 3: go through the three-tier system and equally importantly, get the

336
00:18:34,060 –> 00:18:38,920
Speaker 3: retailers excited about that. And so you’re in parallel trying

337
00:18:39,000 –> 00:18:41,939
Speaker 3: to move a category or move into a trend or

338
00:18:41,980 –> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 3: something like that. And you’ve got to bring that to

339
00:18:45,119 –> 00:18:48,169
Speaker 3: all the points. You’ve got to get it to the distributors.

340
00:18:48,190 –> 00:18:50,169
Speaker 3: You’ve got to get the retailers excited. You’ve got to

341
00:18:50,210 –> 00:18:53,330
Speaker 3: convince everybody that this trend is exciting enough while still

342
00:18:53,390 –> 00:18:57,070
Speaker 3: retaining that unique insight that you have found. How do

343
00:18:57,090 –> 00:19:00,250
Speaker 3: you think about all of your constituents as you do that?

344
00:19:01,090 –> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that’s exactly right. There are a lot of hard

345
00:19:03,820 –> 00:19:07,300
Speaker 1: things about the job. I mean, it’s also what’s energizing

346
00:19:07,340 –> 00:19:09,380
Speaker 1: about it is like, oh, how can I figure this out?

347
00:19:09,400 –> 00:19:13,189
Speaker 1: And how can I make it work. Even internally, we

348
00:19:13,230 –> 00:19:16,570
Speaker 1: need to make our own organization excited about it. And

349
00:19:17,470 –> 00:19:22,260
Speaker 1: we launched, my team and I launched 49 new items

350
00:19:22,859 –> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 1: in the last two years and 10 new brands. And

351
00:19:26,540 –> 00:19:28,619
Speaker 1: that is a lot. There had been a bit of

352
00:19:28,660 –> 00:19:30,980
Speaker 1: an innovation drought before that. And so we had some

353
00:19:31,020 –> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 1: catching up to do, but that’s a lot. And I

354
00:19:34,420 –> 00:19:38,530
Speaker 1: really need to respect and partner with my sales team

355
00:19:38,910 –> 00:19:42,170
Speaker 1: Peers who are out there selling and, you know, because

356
00:19:42,210 –> 00:19:45,220
Speaker 1: the shelf is contracting, you can’t fit all those things in.

357
00:19:45,540 –> 00:19:50,300
Speaker 1: You have to recognize, we have high elk in cans.

358
00:19:50,340 –> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 1: We have a Mad Dog SKU. We have a Fuel

359
00:19:52,560 –> 00:19:56,260
Speaker 1: by Francia SKU. Those are a great fit for some

360
00:19:56,320 –> 00:20:01,180
Speaker 1: channels like Seastore or I have on-premise only SKUs that

361
00:20:01,580 –> 00:20:03,970
Speaker 1: really make sense. They don’t actually have a UPC on

362
00:20:04,010 –> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 1: them and they’re only sold in on-premise. So it’s figuring

363
00:20:08,640 –> 00:20:12,710
Speaker 1: out the right channel, the right time, the right prioritization

364
00:20:13,150 –> 00:20:16,290
Speaker 1: within there. And again, that takes a lot of internal

365
00:20:16,350 –> 00:20:19,649
Speaker 1: partnership and making sure, and then again, going to that

366
00:20:19,730 –> 00:20:23,149
Speaker 1: next rung of distributor and the next rung with retailers.

367
00:20:23,730 –> 00:20:26,409
Speaker 1: What we’ve seen is that retailers are becoming more and

368
00:20:26,450 –> 00:20:29,730
Speaker 1: more open to having the thing that we became very

369
00:20:29,790 –> 00:20:32,770
Speaker 1: used to in CPG, which is joint business planning and

370
00:20:32,850 –> 00:20:35,530
Speaker 1: innovation summits and you know, we used to call them

371
00:20:35,590 –> 00:20:38,770
Speaker 1: shock and awe, where we would show them things, you know,

372
00:20:38,810 –> 00:20:41,429
Speaker 1: three years out. And I don’t think that was as

373
00:20:41,530 –> 00:20:44,510
Speaker 1: common in elk, but it is becoming more and more so.

374
00:20:45,130 –> 00:20:46,830
Speaker 2: And it’s so.

375
00:20:46,690 –> 00:20:49,550
Speaker 1: Great when we get to do that, because I love

376
00:20:49,590 –> 00:20:52,409
Speaker 1: to hear what retailers are thinking, you know, they’re on

377
00:20:52,430 –> 00:20:56,430
Speaker 1: the front lines, they’re hearing from consumers, they’re watching other categories.

378
00:20:56,950 –> 00:20:59,430
Speaker 1: And they give us a lot of fingertips and wrist

379
00:20:59,619 –> 00:21:02,360
Speaker 1: in terms of what might appeal to them and They

380
00:21:02,390 –> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 1: know they’re consuming, talking to Target is very different than

381
00:21:05,240 –> 00:21:08,940
Speaker 1: talking to Total Wine or to Walmart or to Ruth’s

382
00:21:09,000 –> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: Chris on-premise.

383
00:21:10,520 –> 00:21:12,820
Speaker 4: Well, Helen, we could pick your brain all day, but

384
00:21:12,859 –> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 4: we got to ask you our famous last question, which

385
00:21:15,320 –> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 4: is what’s the bravest thing you’ve ever done?

386
00:21:17,420 –> 00:21:18,020
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

387
00:21:18,140 –> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: Well, I love this question. It is a hard question.

388
00:21:22,780 –> 00:21:27,540
Speaker 1: And I have done natural childbirth. I have done outward bound.

389
00:21:27,560 –> 00:21:32,330
Speaker 1: I have moved across country many times. But I thought

390
00:21:32,430 –> 00:21:34,790
Speaker 1: in the spirit, you know, my son is a senior

391
00:21:35,010 –> 00:21:37,230
Speaker 1: and he’s going to college next year. So I’ve been

392
00:21:37,330 –> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: deep in critiquing and thinking about college essays. And so

393
00:21:41,540 –> 00:21:43,980
Speaker 1: I thought I’d bring up one from my past, which

394
00:21:44,100 –> 00:21:46,379
Speaker 1: is when I was a senior in high school, I

395
00:21:47,140 –> 00:21:50,850
Speaker 1: was an avid cross-country runner and I was in the

396
00:21:50,890 –> 00:21:53,970
Speaker 1: backseat of a car that was hit by a drunk driver.

397
00:21:54,720 –> 00:21:58,220
Speaker 1: in my senior year of high school. And it was

398
00:21:58,600 –> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 1: really difficult as you can imagine to have a broken back.

399
00:22:01,200 –> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: And I had to sort of make the choice of,

400
00:22:03,470 –> 00:22:05,170
Speaker 1: you know, was I going to do a slow recovery

401
00:22:05,270 –> 00:22:06,970
Speaker 1: or a surgery? And then I had to sort of

402
00:22:07,050 –> 00:22:09,550
Speaker 1: make it through. I now have, uh, I am bionic.

403
00:22:09,609 –> 00:22:11,109
Speaker 1: I like to say I have a rod in my

404
00:22:11,150 –> 00:22:16,250
Speaker 1: back and eight years after all that happened. And, you know,

405
00:22:17,050 –> 00:22:18,940
Speaker 1: I was grateful to have something to write about in

406
00:22:18,980 –> 00:22:22,950
Speaker 1: my own senior essays because, uh, Those essays are so brutal.

407
00:22:23,010 –> 00:22:24,950
Speaker 1: They make you think about like how you’ve had sort

408
00:22:24,970 –> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: of a boring life until this, this gave me something

409
00:22:27,880 –> 00:22:29,900
Speaker 1: to write about. But I will say eight years after

410
00:22:29,940 –> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: I went to another doctor and he said, Oh no, no, you’re,

411
00:22:32,940 –> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: you’re able to run. You’re able to do anything you want.

412
00:22:35,300 –> 00:22:37,220
Speaker 1: You have, you know, you’re that much stronger. You really

413
00:22:37,280 –> 00:22:41,780
Speaker 1: are biotic. And so I ran five marathons and I,

414
00:22:41,800 –> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: I really, I think the reason I, I choose this

415
00:22:45,500 –> 00:22:47,780
Speaker 1: example to share with you is that it shaped my,

416
00:22:48,240 –> 00:22:51,169
Speaker 1: really my outlook on so many things. One about, you know,

417
00:22:51,210 –> 00:22:53,790
Speaker 1: what a privilege it is to have a body that

418
00:22:53,810 –> 00:22:55,990
Speaker 1: can move. And I never sort of have any of

419
00:22:56,030 –> 00:22:58,489
Speaker 1: the resentment that people do about working out.

420
00:22:58,530 –> 00:23:00,450
Speaker 2: I really do see it as something I’m so lucky

421
00:23:00,470 –> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: to be able to do.

422
00:23:02,100 –> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: And I really do think, you know, that experience with

423
00:23:04,680 –> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: drunk driving made me think a lot about alcohol and

424
00:23:07,320 –> 00:23:12,980
Speaker 1: a lot about moderation and a you know, made me

425
00:23:13,119 –> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: just sort of more aware of things like that. So

426
00:23:15,960 –> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: I think it really shaped me in a way that

427
00:23:18,780 –> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: a lot of other brave choices didn’t, but sticks with

428
00:23:21,760 –> 00:23:22,590
Speaker 1: me to this day.

429
00:23:22,660 –> 00:23:24,379
Speaker 2: And I had a great workout this morning.

430
00:23:25,109 –> 00:23:28,750
Speaker 4: Well, one, thank God you’re okay all these years later.

431
00:23:29,109 –> 00:23:31,970
Speaker 4: Appreciate you sharing that story, especially against the backdrop of

432
00:23:32,010 –> 00:23:35,389
Speaker 4: your role. So it’s clear that you really care about

433
00:23:35,410 –> 00:23:39,790
Speaker 4: the overall category as well as wellness and Hopefully your

434
00:23:39,830 –> 00:23:41,210
Speaker 4: son writes a great essay.

435
00:23:41,330 –> 00:23:42,390
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he did great.

436
00:23:42,550 –> 00:23:44,670
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wrote a better one than I did probably

437
00:23:44,730 –> 00:23:47,270
Speaker 1: and is off to college, but thank you.

438
00:23:47,450 –> 00:23:48,810
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate the question.

439
00:23:48,869 –> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: It’s such a interesting thing to recognize and take a

440
00:23:52,200 –> 00:23:55,139
Speaker 1: moment to think about that, you know, just like consumers

441
00:23:55,200 –> 00:23:57,739
Speaker 1: are more than their mouths, like leaders are more than

442
00:23:57,760 –> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: the brands on which we work. We have a full

443
00:23:59,660 –> 00:24:03,590
Speaker 1: life and all those experiences of our past really do

444
00:24:03,680 –> 00:24:06,690
Speaker 1: influence it. So thanks for the question. Really fun to

445
00:24:06,730 –> 00:24:08,460
Speaker 1: catch up. Thank you both for inviting me.

446
00:24:08,880 –> 00:24:13,810
Speaker 4: Absolutely. If you like what you heard and you wanna

447
00:24:13,830 –> 00:24:18,570
Speaker 4: hear an episode from another executive who moved outside of

448
00:24:18,609 –> 00:24:22,250
Speaker 4: their category and is flourishing, go check out the episode

449
00:24:22,290 –> 00:24:26,210
Speaker 4: we recorded recently with Brian Gelb from Total Wine. If

450
00:24:26,260 –> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 4: you like what you heard, tell a friend, write a review.

451
00:24:28,600 –> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.

452
00:24:47,230 –> 00:24:51,190
Speaker 1: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

453
00:24:51,230 –> 00:24:53,990
Speaker 1: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

454
00:24:54,050 –> 00:24:57,490
Speaker 1: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

455
00:24:57,520 –> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: this incredibly smart piece of advice, meet everyone once.

456
00:25:01,100 –> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: As a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating

457
00:25:03,480 –> 00:25:06,740
Speaker 2: and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

458
00:25:06,960 –> 00:25:10,230
Speaker 2: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

459
00:25:10,270 –> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 2: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

460
00:25:13,160 –> 00:25:15,619
Speaker 2: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

461
00:25:15,680 –> 00:25:19,210
Speaker 2: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

462
00:25:19,410 –> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.