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Speaker 1: The marketers that we see extracting the most value from

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Speaker 1: Pinterest are absolutely ones who are leaning into incrementality, who

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Speaker 1: understand that somebody shopping for couches or living room furniture

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Speaker 1: and spending months creating a board and curating and then

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Speaker 1: actually purchasing, it would be all too easy to just

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Speaker 1: give all of that credit to Google. But the fact

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Speaker 1: of the matter is that’s really just demand capture.

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Speaker 2: It’s more upper funnel, full funnel marketing.

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Speaker 1: Social search platforms like Pinterest that are really driving that demand.

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Speaker 1: CFOs who are very attuned to the ever-evolving media landscape

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Speaker 1: know that.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce.

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Speaker 2: I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

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Speaker 4: And I’m Rachel Tippegraph. And this is a show that

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Speaker 4: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Free of Commerce.

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Speaker 4: Sarah, I mean, you’ve been in the business of search

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Speaker 4: for how many decades at this point?

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Speaker 3: Oh my God, why do you think they seem so old?

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Speaker 3: When was Google invented? Like 2000? I mean, I have

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Speaker 3: been involved in search since 2004. Okay. You know, obviously

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Speaker 3: massively disruptive technology. It has a lot of similarities to

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Speaker 3: OpenAI two years ago.

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Speaker 4: Okay, explain further.

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Speaker 3: There were people that were playing with it, but they

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Speaker 3: didn’t really like, it didn’t have like this meteoric rise,

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Speaker 3: like the way it has had over the past couple

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Speaker 3: of years. Like AI has been a thing for a

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Speaker 3: long time. OpenAI has been around for a while, but

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Speaker 3: getting a little bit more into the consumer zeitgeist and

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Speaker 3: stuff certainly started happening a couple of years ago. And

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Speaker 3: now it’s like, you know, even your grandmother is on it.

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Speaker 3: So the way I look at Google, it was kind

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Speaker 3: of similar. Obviously, there were, and remember, the market was very,

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Speaker 3: you know, there were a lot of players. It was

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Speaker 3: a highly competitive space. Remember, Ask Jeeves, Yahoo, you know,

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Speaker 3: there was Yahoo, there was MSN. I mean, some of

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Speaker 3: them are arguably still around, but there were some real

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Speaker 3: doozies over there. But when you would go to marketers

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Speaker 3: and say, hey, you need to invest in it, they’d

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Speaker 3: be like, yeah, sure, no problem. And like, you know,

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Speaker 3: what’s your rate card? And it’s like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 3: it’s an auction. You bid on this. It’d be like, oh, okay.

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Speaker 3: So where should I send the creative?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 3: It’s just text. And you have limited text and there

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Speaker 3: are certain rules of what you can and can’t do.

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Speaker 3: So you’re used to sight, sounds, emotion, negotiated over three

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Speaker 3: martini lunch. And then you go to text-based stockbroker. And

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Speaker 3: that was a big hindrance to adoption by marketers.

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Speaker 1: Big.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that’s ultimately how I ended up getting into

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Speaker 3: the business because I like taking complicated things and making

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Speaker 3: them approachable. But yeah, that’s ultimately, you know, the origins

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Speaker 3: of search. So fast forward to today, and we’re in

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Speaker 3: the same conversation. Instead of the word search, you say discovery.

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Speaker 3: Google coins ZMOT. I mean, it’s very similar. It’s the

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Speaker 3: zero moment of truth. How do brands get discovered?

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Speaker 4: So when you think about what is the last 22

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Speaker 4: years of search history, right? Your search history.

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Speaker 3: Oh God, nobody should ever see that. So many recipes. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So many inflection points. But it feels like, well, you

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Speaker 4: tell me, 2004 to 2020, was there an inflection point?

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Speaker 3: Yes. Social.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, think about the way people started searching on Twitter.

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Speaker 3: It didn’t happen when Twitter started out. It wasn’t until

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Speaker 3: like maybe, you know, the 2012 election for reals that

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Speaker 3: people were searching on Twitter. First point of discovery was

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Speaker 3: Think about when Amazon became, YouTube became like the second

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Speaker 3: biggest search engine and then Amazon became the second biggest

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Speaker 3: search engine. But the idea of search, of using a

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Speaker 3: keyword-based discovery, that hasn’t changed a lot. But where it’s happened,

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Speaker 3: it’s not, you know, quote unquote traditional, is it?

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So you had traditional search, you had social search, then

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Speaker 4: you had essentially retail media, commerce search.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And now you’ve generative search.

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Speaker 3: Right. And even when you get to generative search, before

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Speaker 3: you get to generative search, you look at commerce search.

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Speaker 3: Commerce search would be on retailer.coms. But I mean, a

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Speaker 3: big part of that business is what happens when you’re

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Speaker 3: searching for products in a social search, which means that

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Speaker 3: the measurement conundrum is a total clusterfuck because where things

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Speaker 3: start and end are arguably needles in haystacks, right?

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Speaker 4: So who have you seen do a good job at

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Speaker 4: solving this conundrum?

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Speaker 3: I don’t know what I’ll get in more trouble for saying,

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Speaker 3: the good ones or the bad ones. You know who

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Speaker 3: the good ones are? The ones who actually prioritize something really,

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Speaker 3: really boring, which is called marketing workflow. Like if you

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Speaker 3: understand how a bill becomes a law in the way

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Speaker 3: you develop your approach to marketing within your organization, then

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Speaker 3: you will be able to identify what the enablers and

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Speaker 3: blockers are and it’ll help you, it’ll bring such distillation

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Speaker 3: So I would say, you know, disciplined marketers. I don’t know.

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Speaker 3: What about you?

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Speaker 4: I’ll name a company.

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Speaker 3: Names?

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Speaker 4: I’ll name a company. And then, of course, there are

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Speaker 4: other examples. But I have always felt that L’Oreal has

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Speaker 4: made the right level of investment to solve some of

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Speaker 4: the biggest challenges in marketing. I would put measurement as

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Speaker 4: one of those challenges. And so I think that is

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Speaker 4: a company and an organization to look at and how

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Speaker 4: they tackled it.

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Speaker 3: That’s fair. That’s fair. I think when you start getting

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Speaker 3: into the specific channels, it gets even more complicated, right?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And obviously, you have internal, you have to rely on

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Speaker 4: third-party vendors, you have the platform themselves. And speaking of platforms,

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Speaker 4: we’re going to hear from Kate at Pinterest today, her perspective.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if you think about Pinterest, it absolutely is

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Speaker 4: sitting at the intersection of social search and commerce search

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Speaker 4: just based on the behavior that exists within that platform.

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Speaker 4: So on that note, let’s bring Kate onto the show.

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Speaker 4: We are very excited to have Kate Hamill, VP of

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Speaker 4: North America Enterprise Sales at Pinterest, onto the show. And

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Speaker 4: Pinterest is serving many brands from big to small across

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Speaker 4: the sun. So Kate, we’re excited to… pick your brain.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It’s good to

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Speaker 2: be here. I have to.

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Speaker 4: Guess that the majority of our listeners at some point

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Speaker 4: in their life have been on Pinterest and have used

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Speaker 4: it as a platform for discovery, whether it’s redecorating their home,

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Speaker 4: recipe ideas, you name it. When you think about Pinterest

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Speaker 4: as a platform, and especially from the commerce angle, since

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Speaker 4: it’s been so much about discovery, What are you doing

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Speaker 4: as a platform to try to continue to move more

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Speaker 4: lower funnel and meet not just at the moment of inspiration,

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Speaker 4: but also at the moment of conversion?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great question.

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Speaker 1: So to your point, for a long time, Pinterest really

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Speaker 1: was kind of an upper funnel platform for marketers. And

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Speaker 1: over the last several years, we’ve really made a concerted

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Speaker 1: effort to drive that kind of actionability. So in your opening,

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Speaker 1: you kind of talked about Pinterest as a solution for

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Speaker 1: world’s largest brands and as well as small to medium-sized businesses.

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Speaker 2: And what we’re trying to do is really.

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Speaker 1: Drive that kind of full funnel experience and actionability for

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Speaker 1: businesses of all shapes and sizes. Shopping has been at

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Speaker 1: the center of our resurgence over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: and more than half of our users do come to shop.

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Speaker 1: But I think historically, to your point, given that it

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Speaker 1: was mostly an upper funnel business, It was kind of

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Speaker 1: a platform of window shoppers where users often found that

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Speaker 1: the stores were closed. You know, maybe they would click

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Speaker 1: on something and they would get a close-up on a

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Speaker 1: pin but didn’t actually click to a retailer’s website, for example.

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Speaker 1: So over the last several years, we’ve worked really hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of close that loop and compress the funnel

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Speaker 1: between discovery and commercial intent. We’ve enhanced shopability through… lots

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Speaker 1: of different types of performance marketing products, including mobile deep links,

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Speaker 1: conversion APIs, and other solutions like Pinterest Performance Plus, which

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Speaker 1: is our AI-powered.

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Speaker 2: Campaign optimization tool. And as a result, outbound clicks.

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Speaker 1: To advertisers are up 40% year-on-year and up more than

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Speaker 1: 5x over the last few years. And while that is

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Speaker 1: certainly applicable for advertising partners like e-commerce companies and retailers.

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Speaker 1: It’s also applicable for, you know, maybe industries that you

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Speaker 1: don’t necessarily think of as actionable online like CPG. For example,

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Speaker 1: we are working with you, Rachel, and folks at MicMac

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Speaker 1: to make Pinterest more shoppable across even CPG.

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Speaker 2: So with products like.

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Speaker 1: Where to Buy Links, We now allow advertisers to drive

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Speaker 1: interested customers in various CPG products to selection of retailers.

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Speaker 1: And they can drive that kind of actionable purchase while

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Speaker 1: giving really valuable data back to CPG companies. So it’s

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Speaker 1: early stages for products like that, but in general, the

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Speaker 1: gist is to make the entire platform actionable and we

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Speaker 1: are kind of well on our way.

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Speaker 3: It’s interesting that you’ve been talking so much about the funnel.

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Speaker 3: I feel like the discovery part has gotten, I don’t know,

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Speaker 3: like maybe a little too overhyped on generative search because

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Speaker 3: search means so much and it’s another way to get

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Speaker 3: the party started. But social search is pretty freaking big too.

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Speaker 3: Not getting the kind of PR you used to get.

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Speaker 3: So where do you feel Pinterest sits within this discovery? ecosystem?

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Speaker 3: And as you are working with brands and trying to

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Speaker 3: get your airtime in with them as they’re chasing the

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Speaker 3: latest bright shiny object, how do you think about the

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Speaker 3: way the landscape looks?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it’s a great question and very much of the moment.

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Speaker 1: It’s very obvious, there’s no secret that search has been

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Speaker 1: absolutely disrupted by this major arrival of Gen AI. And

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Speaker 1: I think that very much leaves the opportunity up for

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Speaker 1: grabs and also leaves marketers trying to figure out where

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Speaker 1: to place their bets and where to experiment. So these days,

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Speaker 1: instead of having kind of one starting point for search,

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Speaker 1: you might go to an aggregated travel site for booking

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Speaker 1: vacations or retailer sites when you know specifically what you

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Speaker 1: want or ChatGPT if you are even earlier stage in

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Speaker 1: terms of thinking about what it is you’re looking for.

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, Pinterest’s really unique advantage is

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Speaker 1: visual search. And I think this is where we absolutely

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Speaker 1: have a right to win. You know, most of the

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Speaker 1: search experiences these days are incredibly text heavy. And people,

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Speaker 1: by contrast, are coming to Pinterest and, you know, leaning

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Speaker 1: in heavily to the visual component. In fact, we have

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Speaker 1: found that 39% of Gen Z Pinterest users actually start their.

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Speaker 2: Searches on Pinterest.

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Speaker 1: And that’s because this is a generation that is really

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Speaker 1: drawn to a visual first experience. As a visual search platform,

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Speaker 1: Pinterest enables people to overcome the challenge of trying to,

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Speaker 1: you know, describe aesthetics or vibes in words. You can

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Speaker 1: kind of see it, and when you see it, you

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Speaker 1: know it, versus trying to encourage or push yourself to

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Speaker 1: put words to something that you might not actually be

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Speaker 1: able to even describe. You know, as we kind of

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Speaker 1: started the conversation, I think brands often see Pinterest just

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Speaker 1: as kind of an upper funnel channel these days, but

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Speaker 1: we’ve really… kind of supercharge that end-to-end performance and are

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Speaker 1: tapping into search budgets these days. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: in order to really kind of capitalize on that experience

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Speaker 1: and that opportunity, the guidance is, you know, to all

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Speaker 1: different types of marketers, whether you’re retail, whether you’re CPG,

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Speaker 1: upload your product catalog, run always on full funnel media,

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Speaker 1: use Pinterest Performance Plus to simplify campaign creation and you know,

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Speaker 1: measure for the full journey, tracking both short and long-term metrics,

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Speaker 1: as well as kind of historically lower funnel metrics like

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Speaker 1: clicks and click-through conversions, as well as views and view-through conversions.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you just said all verticals, but as we

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Speaker 3: think about visual search, what is a surprising vertical? Because

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Speaker 3: Pinterest originally kind of rose up for decor and apparel

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Speaker 3: and uh food there were a few things that were

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Speaker 3: just kind of almost like natively pinterest-y pinnable what’s a

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Speaker 3: surprising vertical that maybe people wouldn’t necessarily think would be

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Speaker 3: like super hot on pinterest because they didn’t really think

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: What we refer to as our emerging or non-endemic verticals

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Speaker 1: have actually been some of our highest growth over the

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Speaker 1: last several years. Take, for example, financial services. Financial services

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Speaker 1: is one of our largest subsectors. And that’s because when

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Speaker 1: you think about many of the use cases that people

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Speaker 1: come to and many of the life moments during which

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Speaker 1: they come to Pinterest, whether they’re remodeling a home or

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Speaker 1: looking to buy a home or getting married or having

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Speaker 1: a baby, Those are moments when people make major financial decisions,

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Speaker 1: whether it’s to get a mortgage, to get a new

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Speaker 1: credit card, insurance as you’re kind of progressing throughout these

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Speaker 1: major life moments. That is not necessarily an industry moment.

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Speaker 1: you know, insurance and banking industries that you would think

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Speaker 1: of as being native to Pinterest. But that kind of

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Speaker 1: adjacency is absolutely valuable. And the data and kind of

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Speaker 1: opportunity to reach people at the exact right moment is

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Speaker 1: incredibly rich for those types of companies and marketers.

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Speaker 4: Double clicking a little bit more on this notion that

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Speaker 4: search budgets are moving to social platforms like Pinterest. When

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Speaker 4: you guys are talking with marketers and you’re hearing probably

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Speaker 4: different objections and what they’re up against internally in terms

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Speaker 4: of advocating to their CFO, et cetera, what are some

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Speaker 4: of the points that you feel people need to educate

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Speaker 4: internally their teams on why social search is something that

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Speaker 4: is worth investing in?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think most of this comes down to measurement.

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Speaker 1: I think most marketers… particularly when they think about search,

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Speaker 1: and for some, when they think about really anything digital,

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Speaker 1: they’re still wedded to last click. And some are even

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Speaker 1: wedded to last click same session.

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Speaker 2: But in an.

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Speaker 1: Environment where people are shopping for days, weeks, months, across devices,

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Speaker 1: within their households, that kind of measurement really does not

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Speaker 1: capture the value of that different platforms can provide as

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Speaker 1: touch points throughout the marketing funnel. I think all too

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Speaker 1: often there can be just an instinctive move towards a

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Speaker 1: paradigm that has been relevant.

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Speaker 2: For over a decade.

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Speaker 1: But the marketers that I see having the most success,

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Speaker 1: not just on Pinterest, but in terms of driving business

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Speaker 1: growth for the companies that they work for, are very

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Speaker 1: sophisticated about measurement. They triangulate across different measurement sources, typically,

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Speaker 1: you know, an MMM for kind of cross channel allocation,

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Speaker 1: an MTA to kind of optimize within a quarter and

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Speaker 1: then lean into incrementality testing for always on calibration and

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Speaker 1: split testing for kind of.

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Speaker 2: You know, fast experiments.

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Speaker 1: And I think the marketers that we see extracting the

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Speaker 1: most value from Pinterest are absolutely ones who are leaning

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Speaker 1: into incrementality, who understand that somebody shopping for couches or

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Speaker 1: living room furniture and spending months creating a board and

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Speaker 1: curating and then actually purchasing, it would be all too

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Speaker 1: easy to just give all of that credit to Google.

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Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is that’s really just

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Speaker 1: demand capture. It’s more upper funnel, full funnel, social search platforms.

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Speaker 1: like Pinterest, that are really driving that demand. So it

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Speaker 1: really comes down to measurement. And I think CFOs who

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Speaker 1: are very attuned to the ever-evolving media landscape know that.

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Speaker 4: So well articulated. I completely agree. Talking about things that

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Speaker 4: are getting airtime, obviously, we opened up and identified AI. So-

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Speaker 4: We’d be remiss to not ask you what is going

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Speaker 4: on with Pinterest with AI. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So AI is core to everything we do at Pinterest.

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Speaker 1: It’s why we’ve effectively become a shopping assistant to 600

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Speaker 1: million people globally. You know, I think what’s kind of

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Speaker 1: different about Pinterest is that our AI is really proactive.

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Speaker 1: Unlike chat or search platforms that wait for users to

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Speaker 1: type a prompt, our AI anticipates what users will be

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Speaker 1: interested in next. So it curates kind of a fresh

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Speaker 1: feed of personalized recommendations that are ready the moment somebody

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Speaker 1: comes back to Pinterest. And that’s really what enables our

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Speaker 1: model to deliver such relevant content. So every month we

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Speaker 1: have users coming. They’re making 80 billion queries. The vast

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Speaker 1: majority of these are unbranded. So it’s a really… powerful

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Speaker 1: opportunity for marketers to get in front of people before

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Speaker 1: they’ve decided, you know, what to buy, much less even

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Speaker 1: like what brand they want to buy from. The majority

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Speaker 1: of the queries are also visual. You know, we have

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Speaker 1: 15 billion boards saved. And I think this all just

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Speaker 1: kind of feeds into the company’s secret sauce, which is

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Speaker 1: what we think of as our taste graph. You know,

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Speaker 1: it really can kind of decode human taste to give

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Speaker 1: people sharper, more personalized options. You know, when we do

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Speaker 1: consumer research, the number one thing that we hear, and honestly,

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Speaker 1: I hear from friends of mine who will give me

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Speaker 1: feedback on Pinterest, is this idea that Pinterest just gets me.

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Speaker 1: We also recently launched the Pinterest Assistant, and that is

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Speaker 1: a voice-activated assistant. So now people can come and they

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Speaker 1: can search visually. They can query things. using their voices.

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Speaker 1: And the entire experience is really just designed for moments

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Speaker 1: when people don’t yet know what they’re looking for, but

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Speaker 1: kind of know it when they see it, or can

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Speaker 1: even just start to describe it a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you a totally different question, aside from

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Speaker 3: all the AI stuff, which is super cool. And I

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Speaker 3: always like talking about AI, but one thing we didn’t

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Speaker 3: discuss at all in this episode is you. We love

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Speaker 3: to talk about Pinterest, sure. and the changing nature of search,

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Speaker 3: but you joined a little less than a year ago.

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Speaker 3: You’ve been in lots of different industries. Why’d you come here?

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Speaker 2: Thank you for asking.

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Speaker 3: Let’s get to know you a little bit better.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I joined Pinterest in the spring.

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Speaker 1: I joined in April after 13 years at Meta. When

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Speaker 1: I was at Meta, I was always in sales. I

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Speaker 1: was mostly in performance sales. I did work across several

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Speaker 1: different industries. So entertainment, mobile gaming, travel. I spent the

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Speaker 1: majority of my time in e-com and retail working with both,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the largest.

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Speaker 2: E-com and retail companies in the world.

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Speaker 1: And then, you know, D2C kind of startups within the space.

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Speaker 2: I loved my time at Meta.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, kind of the story of my

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Speaker 1: journey there was I would, every couple of years, I

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Speaker 1: would kind of move to a new a new industry,

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Speaker 1: a new part of the company where an emerging product

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Speaker 1: offered the opportunity to unlock an entirely new industry. I

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Speaker 1: was really kind of drawn to that close partnership with

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Speaker 1: product teams to drive business growth, both for Meta as

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Speaker 1: well as for partners. What really attracted me to Pinterest was,

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Speaker 1: it was a few things. First, the company really does

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Speaker 1: sit at the intersection of search and social and commerce.

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Speaker 2: I think that the intent that.

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Speaker 1: Pinterest has is incredibly compelling, incredibly rich. I talked about

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Speaker 1: that taste graph, the 15 billion boards we have. People

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Speaker 1: really come with a very powerful intent that provides a

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Speaker 1: really unique signal to marketers. I also was very attracted

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Speaker 1: to just the stage of the company, the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: really kind of help chart those next couple years of growth.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the growth over the next several years has

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Speaker 1: been phenomenal, quarters and quarters of sequential user growth, revenue growth. But,

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Speaker 1: you know, as we just continue to go deeper on

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Speaker 1: this kind of actionability, full funnel journey, I was really

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Speaker 1: excited to be a part of building the next wave

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Speaker 1: of growth. Finally, on a personal note, I have three

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Speaker 1: young daughters, and Pinterest really is a a very safe

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Speaker 1: and positive space on the internet. And, you know, it

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Speaker 1: gives me a lot of pride to work here and

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Speaker 1: to try to prove that positivity and that kind of

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Speaker 1: healthy space on the internet can be not just good for,

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Speaker 1: not just good for people and mental health, but for

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Speaker 1: business too.

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Speaker 4: Do you monitor your daughter’s boards?

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Speaker 2: My children are, I have three children.

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Speaker 1: They are eight, eight and five, and they have very

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Speaker 1: little access to technology.

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Speaker 2: So- No, I do not.

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Speaker 4: Bless them. Well, Kate, we have to ask you our

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Speaker 4: famous last question, which is, what’s the bravest thing you’ve

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Speaker 4: ever done?

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Speaker 1: Well, following up on the personal note, I think the

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Speaker 1: bravest thing I’ve ever done is having a third child

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Speaker 1: two years after I had twins. Throw in a global pandemic,

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Speaker 1: two parents with full-time careers in lockdown, and it was something.

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Speaker 2: I’ll tell you that.

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Speaker 4: Well, you made it through.

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Speaker 2: We made it. Yeah, we made it. We’re here.

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Speaker 4: Is there anything that you take from that experience? Like

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Speaker 4: advice to other working parents out there?

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Speaker 2: Oh, good question. Everything is a phase.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, whatever you’re dealing with today, and that’s

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Speaker 1: not just a working parent mantra.

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Speaker 2: It’s anything in life.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you’re dealing with today, it’s going to be different.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not tomorrow, but certainly, you know, a period of

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Speaker 1: time from now. You’re stronger than you think you are.

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Speaker 1: And I think I do a good job keeping perspective

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Speaker 1: and keeping it all relative.

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Speaker 4: That’s good. Sarah and I need to work on that.

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Speaker 4: I don’t know.

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Speaker 3: What you’re talking about, Rachel. I’m so… Balanced.

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Speaker 4: Kate, we’re so appreciative for your time. It definitely feels

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Speaker 4: like there’s a lot of momentum at Pinterest and a

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Speaker 4: lot evolving. Everyone, watch your leadership on LinkedIn and on Pinterest.

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Speaker 4: And we appreciate your time and sharing what’s going on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It was great to be here

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 4: If you like what you heard and you want to

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Speaker 4: hear another platform perspective, go check out the episode we

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00:24:19,290 –> 00:24:23,710
Speaker 4: recorded with NBCU’s Allison Levin, which was all about the

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00:24:23,750 –> 00:24:28,530
Speaker 4: future of measurement and optimizations. Tell a friend, write a review.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

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00:24:58,490 –> 00:25:01,250
Speaker 5: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

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00:25:01,310 –> 00:25:04,750
Speaker 5: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

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00:25:04,770 –> 00:25:08,469
Speaker 5: this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As

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Speaker 5: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 5: inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

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Speaker 5: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

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Speaker 5: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

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Speaker 5: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

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Speaker 5: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

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Speaker 5: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.