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Speaker 1: I believe that in moments of great change, often you

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Speaker 1: can be stronger together than being an independent player. And

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Speaker 1: I think you’re seeing that across the ecosystem. I went

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Speaker 1: in there thinking that we were going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a data partnership. Very quickly, I realized, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a very different day than I thought

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Speaker 1: it was going to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, ultimately, you did end up with a partnership, right?

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Just different than what I imagined it was

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Speaker 1: going to look like.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Free of Commerce. I’m Sarah Hofstadter.

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Speaker 1: And I’m Rachel Tippegraff. And this is a show that

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Speaker 1: talks about what’s relevant in commerce for the world’s biggest brands.

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Speaker 2: And you know, normally we bring on brands and so

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Speaker 2: many of them have been through mergers and acquisitions and

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Speaker 2: divestitures and all that other stuff. But gosh, Charity begins

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Speaker 2: at home. And today we are really excited to unpack

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Speaker 2: what the M & A world looks like on our

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Speaker 2: side of the table. In fact, if you’ve been living

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Speaker 2: under a rock, Micmac has recently been acquired by Spence.

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Speaker 2: And so this represents a big day or big month

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Speaker 2: or whatever big year for my co-host sister from another

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Speaker 2: mess serve, Rachel Typograph. And today we’re going to unpack

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Speaker 2: a little bit about what goes into these kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have been involved, maybe from the sidelines,

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Speaker 2: and many of you maybe have been involved very directly,

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Speaker 2: but selling a company, integrating, that stuff is complicated and

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Speaker 2: not usually part of your day-to-day job as a CEO.

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Speaker 2: So Rachel, why don’t we start, just take us through

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Speaker 2: the process. You built this company, you were employee number one,

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Speaker 2: at what point did you say, hmm, now is the

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Speaker 2: time for a liquidity event? And let me think about

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Speaker 2: where I would want that to happen.

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you, Sarah. Just following your footsteps

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Speaker 1: in the journey of being acquired. Yeah, we’re super excited

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Speaker 1: to be a part of SPINS. I imagine many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners are aware of SPINS, but if you’re not,

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Speaker 1: they essentially have proprietary access to the majority of grocery

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Speaker 1: retail data in the US. And as a result, if

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Speaker 1: your brand and you’re listed in places like Whole Foods

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Speaker 1: or Sprouts or even big box like Walmart or Kroger,

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Speaker 1: you have to leverage their software and data for you

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Speaker 1: to understand your market share within those environments. So we’re

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Speaker 1: really excited to be a part of Spins. And the

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Speaker 1: really cool thing is that Micmac has been very focused

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Speaker 1: on the enterprise market, meaning we work with really big brands.

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Speaker 1: And Spins bread and butter is actually the opposite end

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Speaker 1: of the market, which is SMB and mid-market. And many

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Speaker 1: of those brands end up getting acquired by our customers.

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Speaker 1: So we now are in a position to see everything

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Speaker 1: that’s truly happening in the global consumer economy from big

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Speaker 1: to small. But to get to your question, Sarah, of

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Speaker 1: the journey, honestly, I’m still processing it. We closed on

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Speaker 1: January 5th of 2026. So really just three weeks ago

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Speaker 1: from when we’re recording this right now. And I’ve been

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Speaker 1: building Micmac for 11 and a half years of my life.

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Speaker 1: So in many ways, the majority of my adult career.

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Speaker 1: And it was a whirlwind. I met Jay Margulies, who’s

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Speaker 1: the CEO of Spins, for breakfast on October 6th. It’s

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Speaker 1: honestly been a whirlwind. And when you are a founder

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Speaker 1: or even an operator and you think about the next

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Speaker 1: stage of your company, you have to think about a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. You have to think about, one, how

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Speaker 1: long have investors been on your cap table? That’s one

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Speaker 1: thing to consider. The second is market dynamics. So whether

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Speaker 1: that’s what’s happening in the global economy, so the cost

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Speaker 1: of capital, what’s happening in technology, are there major shifts

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Speaker 1: happening that could cause you to rethink the strategy of

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Speaker 1: your business, what’s happening in your customer environment, and then

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Speaker 1: of course, what is important for your employees. And so

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Speaker 1: for me, 11 and a half years in, It still

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Speaker 1: feels like day zero. I think everyone who’s been following

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Speaker 1: Micmac is constantly reinventing itself to make sure that it’s

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Speaker 1: ahead of the market. And that’s not going to change

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Speaker 1: because we sit at the intersection of media and commerce

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Speaker 1: and you have to move at that speed. But I’ve

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Speaker 1: had investors who were with us for 11 and a

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Speaker 1: half years, and we are sitting at a major period

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Speaker 1: of consumer behavior and technology shift. And none of us

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Speaker 1: have a crystal ball I believe that in moments of

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Speaker 1: great change, often you can be stronger together than being

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Speaker 1: an independent player. And I think you’re seeing that across

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem. Obviously, Publicis acquired Profiterra a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: and that was at a moment of when commerce media

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Speaker 1: was changing. And so honestly, all the stars aligned when

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Speaker 1: I met Jay for breakfast. I went in there thinking

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Speaker 1: that we were going to talk about a data partnership.

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Speaker 1: And he looked me in the eyes during breakfast and

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Speaker 1: told me that he wanted to acquire Micmac. And very

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Speaker 1: quickly I realized, oh, this is going to be a

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Speaker 1: very different day than I thought it was going to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, ultimately you did end up with a partnership, right?

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Just different than what I imagined it was

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Speaker 1: going to look like.

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Speaker 2: When he brought this concept to you, I mean, obviously

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Speaker 2: it wasn’t the first time you thought about what’s the

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Speaker 2: long-term goal for where Micmac would go. When you thought

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Speaker 2: about what would make for an ideal partnership, partner? What

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Speaker 2: were the qualities, hard, soft, that were really important to

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Speaker 2: you to make sure that Micmac would be able to

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Speaker 2: continue to serve the market and its employees? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So our number one company value is to be brand obsessed.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing for me is, is the partnership

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Speaker 1: going to better our output in terms of product and

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Speaker 1: serve our customers? So really answering the question, is this

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Speaker 1: good for the customer? With Spins, it absolutely is because

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Speaker 1: one of the most valuable things that we do is

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Speaker 1: aggregate retail data and then obviously marry that to media data.

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Speaker 1: And Spins has a competitive moat around their retail data.

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Speaker 1: So that was clear as day that this was going

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Speaker 1: to be good for the customer. And then the second

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Speaker 1: is good for my investors. So I did raise money.

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Speaker 1: You have to think about what’s the financial outcome going

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Speaker 1: to be for your investors and And then the third

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Speaker 1: is my employees. Are they going to be able to

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Speaker 1: continue to grow their careers at Micmac or at a

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Speaker 1: greater company? Or does the parent company have a different

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Speaker 1: vision for what they want to do? And the beautiful

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Speaker 1: thing about Spins is that Spins business is currently concentrated

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Speaker 1: in the U.S. and very much on SMB and mid-market.

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Speaker 1: So Micmac is complementary and we’re global and Spins wants

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Speaker 1: that focus to maintain. And so… It really checked all

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Speaker 1: three boxes in terms of being good for the customers,

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Speaker 1: good for my investors and good for my employees.

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Speaker 2: So now that you’re on the acquired side, over the

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Speaker 2: past few years, you’ve made some acquisitions yourself. Yeah. Is

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Speaker 2: there anything you think you would have done differently with

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Speaker 2: your acquisitions? The process of it, not the actual acquisitions,

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Speaker 2: but like, what do you think you could have done

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Speaker 2: differently or better? What do you wish you knew then, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, now? It’s so funny, like M & A is

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Speaker 1: so freaking hard. You know, there’s so much glamour around it,

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Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, I think it’s

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Speaker 1: one of the hardest things that you can do as

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Speaker 1: a business operator. And really creating the deal isn’t the

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Speaker 1: hard part. It’s the integration after. We learned a lot

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Speaker 1: with our first acquisition. So our first acquisition was Suaven,

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Speaker 1: a company that was headquartered in Paris. And we applied

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Speaker 1: those learnings to then our channel advisor acquisition, where again,

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Speaker 1: we learned a shit ton. And I’m really grateful for

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Speaker 1: those experiences because it’s now setting us up for, I think,

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Speaker 1: greater success going into spins. But the biggest, biggest part

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Speaker 1: that I think we fumbled at with the first acquisition,

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Speaker 1: because we honestly just didn’t know better, was the change

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Speaker 1: management aspect. Even though Suaven was a competitor of ours,

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Speaker 1: meaning our products were doing very similar things, culturally, our

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Speaker 1: businesses were actually very different. There’s the geographical element, for sure.

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Speaker 1: There was also the size of the company. Like when

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Speaker 1: we picked them up, there were 22 people. For anyone

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Speaker 1: who’s ever worked at a 22-person company, you’re a family then, right?

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Speaker 1: Like you really have that nature. And they were only

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Speaker 1: selling into the European market. And so bringing them into

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Speaker 1: a U.S. company that had a lot of process and rigor,

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Speaker 1: that was a huge adjustment for those employees. And I

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Speaker 1: don’t think in the early days we did a great

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Speaker 1: job of level setting for them what that experience initial

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Speaker 1: experience was going to be like at Micmac. We tried

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Speaker 1: to do a much better job of that as channel advisor.

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Speaker 1: Now that acquisition also had its own uniqueness. We did

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Speaker 1: a carve out. So we didn’t acquire the entire channel

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Speaker 1: advisor business. It was just a particular product line that

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Speaker 1: we competed on called shoppable media. And I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that we didn’t realize in the diligence

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Speaker 1: period was that those employees, once again, it always comes

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Speaker 1: down to people. They had gone through a lot of change.

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Speaker 1: They had entered Channel Advisor through their own acquisitions. Channel

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Speaker 1: Advisor then went from a public to a private company.

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Speaker 1: Then they got acquired by essentially a venture-backed company, Micmac.

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Speaker 1: And so they were going through their own personal experiences of,

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Speaker 1: do I want to stay on this journey or not?

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Speaker 1: And so the biggest thing that is so hard to

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Speaker 1: do in M & A diligence, because a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is always a secret, is the people diligence part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You’re talking about the people. I was thinking as you’re

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Speaker 2: talking about the next question, which for me turned out

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Speaker 2: about culture and culture is so much about people and

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Speaker 2: how people work with each other. And even if the

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Speaker 2: companies are serving a similar need and they are operating

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Speaker 2: with similar customers, even if they’re the same size, everybody’s

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Speaker 2: battle rhythm. is very different. And the Swaybin acquisition is interesting.

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Speaker 2: You look at the Swaybin acquisition, 22 people, family style,

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Speaker 2: if you will, and international roots, there’s always culture gaps

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Speaker 2: when it comes to that. It’s never about the language.

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Speaker 2: It’s always about the culture. People think it’s language and

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Speaker 2: it’s not, but there’s this emotional toll because it’s a

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Speaker 2: small company and it’s There are so many rituals that

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Speaker 2: exist within companies that you don’t even realize that they are.

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Speaker 2: It’s like when you walk into your parents’ house after

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Speaker 2: not being there for a long time and you smell,

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Speaker 2: you smell the house smell that nobody else knows.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Those are the kinds of things that, you know, those

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Speaker 2: would be intangibles in M & A. Yeah. That you

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Speaker 2: have to have a sensitivity to, like you have to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge it’s always going to be there. It’s always going

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Speaker 2: to be there. You know, I’ve been the acquired, I’ve

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Speaker 2: been an acquirer. My acquirer has been acquired. There’s a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of, you know, nesting dolls and it brings

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Speaker 2: different personalities and it brings different emotion. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: know it’s very early days, you know, like you said,

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Speaker 2: it’s just a few weeks, but what are you thinking

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Speaker 2: about in terms of yourself? This was your baby and

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Speaker 2: now you have handed this baby for a check, but

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Speaker 2: you’ve handed this baby to somebody else. Like, how are

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Speaker 2: you emotionally feeling?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, what’s so unique is I’m still

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Speaker 1: the CEO of Micmac. I report into the CEO of

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Speaker 1: Spins and I’m now running a business unit within Spins.

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Speaker 1: So essentially Spins owned a competitive asset to us and

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Speaker 1: I’m now running both Micmac and this company that was

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Speaker 1: called Destiny, which will now be called Micmac. So it’s

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Speaker 1: almost like a babushka doll in the sense that Spins

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Speaker 1: is a big doll, then there’s Micmac, then there’s Destiny

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Speaker 1: and I’m controlling Micmac and Destiny. To be transparent, like

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Speaker 1: we’re going through that dance right now. What remains the

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Speaker 1: way of Micmac’s operating cadence and culture and what needs

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Speaker 1: to change to become a part of a larger parent company?

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Speaker 1: You know, I think the first 90 to 180 days

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Speaker 1: of an M & A integration is extremely telling. There’s

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Speaker 1: this infographic that some of you have probably seen, storming, forming, norming,

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Speaker 1: and you just kind of go through those motions and

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Speaker 1: there’s no way around it. And you’ll get to the

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Speaker 1: other side. You’ll come out stronger. The experience might be

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Speaker 1: what certain employees want and what others don’t. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: you work through all of that. The beautiful thing, and again,

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Speaker 1: this is why I’m grateful, is like we’ve done it

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Speaker 1: twice already at Micmac. So we know this is just

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Speaker 1: par for the course. It’s not fun, but it’s totally

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Speaker 1: worth it. And as long as you keep open communication

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Speaker 1: with the folks throughout the experience, that’s really all you

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Speaker 1: can ask for.

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Speaker 2: So heavy duty empathy, especially coming from having done it before,

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Speaker 2: which is just such a critical skill and one that

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Speaker 2: comes very naturally to you.

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Speaker 1: I try, but it’s an adjustment for all of us,

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Speaker 1: but it’s going to be worthwhile.

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Speaker 2: How are you? The communication to the clients probably also

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Speaker 2: is one of those things where I’m sure Spins is

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Speaker 2: super excited to tell their clients, you’re super excited to

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Speaker 2: tell your clients. there’s a lot that kind of goes

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Speaker 2: into that consideration side and it crystallizes a lot of things,

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Speaker 2: makes it really real, you know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was really special. So we did press a

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Speaker 1: few days after we closed. It was whatever, we closed

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Speaker 1: it on Monday and it was seven business days later

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Speaker 1: that we did press. Right before, the two days before press,

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Speaker 1: I personally contacted our most strategic customers, as well as

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Speaker 1: some people that took big bets on Micmac in the

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Speaker 1: early days as customers, whether they remain customers or not,

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Speaker 1: to express my personal gratitude and appreciation for what they

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Speaker 1: did for us. And so that was really, really special

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Speaker 1: to be able to connect with customers on an individual

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Speaker 1: level like that. And then press hit and communication went

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Speaker 1: out to both all of Micmac and Spin’s customers and

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Speaker 1: the best thing is everyone sees this opportunity. It’s clear

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Speaker 1: as day. Like this is just good for the market.

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Speaker 1: And so it’s just been a really positive experience hearing

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Speaker 1: from all of the customers.

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Speaker 2: Sounds great. Good market opportunity. We’re all excited. So happy

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Speaker 2: for you. And as I said to Jay, he really

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Speaker 2: hit jackpot with you. What’s next for Micmac? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you gotta, you gotta do the integration, all that other stuff,

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Speaker 2: but like business gotta get done. You still gotta, you know,

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Speaker 2: customers still need to be served.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Product needs evolution, like all this other stuff, how do

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Speaker 2: you make sure it’s not noise, but what happens to Micmac?

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Speaker 2: What should people be looking for?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, there’s three big priorities. So first

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Speaker 1: is we want to get this proprietary spins data into

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Speaker 1: Micmac because it’s a fricking home run that is already

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Speaker 1: in the works. The second is we are now going

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Speaker 1: to be available to the SMB and mid-market. So, I mean, brands,

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Speaker 1: and 25 million revenue, brands that are doing 25 million

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Speaker 1: to 200. And then of course, we’ve always had our

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Speaker 1: enterprise segment. So that’s the destiny business that we’ve taken

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Speaker 1: over and bringing them over to Micmac and offering them

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Speaker 1: way more capabilities than they’ve ever had. And then the

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Speaker 1: third is what you were getting at Sarah, continued product innovation.

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Speaker 1: So we are about to announce our new platform, Micmac 4.0,

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Speaker 1: which is a big step forward because we’re obviously living

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Speaker 1: in a moment of change and we’re not all just

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Speaker 1: caring about the digital shelf or the social shelf or

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Speaker 1: the physical shelf, but obviously we now have the agentic shelf.

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Speaker 1: And being able to understand that end-to-end customer journey is

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Speaker 1: becoming more complicated than ever before with traditional forms of

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Speaker 1: investment like media mix modeling. And there’s nothing out in

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Speaker 1: market that can help you understand how to invest your

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Speaker 1: dollars across all of those channels in real time, married

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Speaker 1: to actual in-market execution. So that is our brand new product,

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Speaker 1: Micmac Aura. that we’ll be launching next month that I

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Speaker 1: think is going to really disrupt a new segment of

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Speaker 1: the space. So that’s what we’re focused on. And we’re

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Speaker 1: excited to just be able to now bring this to

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Speaker 1: more brands.

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Speaker 2: There are people that listen to us that are founders, leaders.

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Speaker 2: There are also people that are considering moving to smaller

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Speaker 2: companies from bigger companies. But for the founders and leaders

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Speaker 2: and people who own their own business, what advice would

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Speaker 2: do you have on what it takes to both being

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Speaker 2: independent and the process of selling the company?

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Speaker 1: Well, first, if you’re still in your building journey, someone

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Speaker 1: said this to me when I was just starting the company,

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Speaker 1: you got to want to do it for at least

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Speaker 1: 10 years. It took me 11 and a half. Most

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Speaker 1: of this journey takes a lot of blood, sweat, and

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Speaker 1: tears and time. The second is you really got to

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Speaker 1: believe in what you’re doing. You got to be obsessed

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Speaker 1: with winning and not the actual idea because markets are

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Speaker 1: gonna change and you gotta be able to reinvent yourself.

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Speaker 1: And the third is make sure you surround yourself with investors,

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Speaker 1: board members, teams, partners that really believe in what you’re doing.

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Speaker 1: There’s no room for dissenting voices when you’re trying to

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Speaker 1: create a market opportunity. And then from M & A,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Sarah, you probably have way more wisdom than me,

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Speaker 1: but I think when it comes to M & A,

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Speaker 1: There’s strategic M & A and there’s financial sponsor M & A.

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Speaker 1: So let’s just say private equity coming to buy you.

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Speaker 1: But if you’re focused on strategic, keep in mind that

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Speaker 1: your competitors could become your next great buyer. And so

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Speaker 1: it’s actually important to build human relationships with your competitors.

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Speaker 1: And the second is building really strong relationships with the

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Speaker 1: sister ecosystem, the strategic partner ecosystem that you might be

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Speaker 1: playing in, because those are also potential likely buyers. And

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Speaker 1: so at the end of the day, this is just

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Speaker 1: all about human to human relationships.

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Speaker 2: That’s extremely well said. The support given post-acquisition from so

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Speaker 2: many of our ecosystem partners actually really helps. It helped

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Speaker 2: in a way that I didn’t expect it to. I mean,

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Speaker 2: not that we had any issues, like Mark was pretty

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Speaker 2: positive about our acquisition, but the reaction from that ecosystem

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Speaker 2: that we’re so proud to be a part of, certainly

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Speaker 2: helped post-acquisition. And then just pre-acquisition just helps you understand.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you and I have had so many conversations

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Speaker 2: over the past six years that we’ve known each other

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Speaker 2: on market dynamics, on who’s selling to whom and why,

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Speaker 2: and our own little private, not recorded assessments, evaluations, and

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Speaker 2: things like that. So it’s helpful to hear the advice. Well, Rachel,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much for sharing some of your thoughts. On this, obviously,

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Speaker 2: we’re going to be watching a lot about MCMAC 4.0.

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Speaker 2: There seems to be a lot going on. Next episode

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Speaker 2: after this, we’ll be back to our regularly scheduled programs.

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Speaker 2: As a segue, we thought it would be a fun

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Speaker 2: little tip to give you some clips from prior episodes

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Speaker 2: of our clients who have been through acquisitions, which we

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Speaker 2: hope you’ll enjoy.

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Speaker 5: The main takeaway here is don’t get comfortable. And you

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Speaker 5: have to double down on the things that make you

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Speaker 5: who you were. And in this case, we really doubled

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Speaker 5: down on what made us Quest. And that can be

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Speaker 5: difficult to do because, you know, especially if you’re coming

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Speaker 5: from a world where the intent of the company is

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Speaker 5: to be acquired, you’re an acquisition target. You know, people

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Speaker 5: are trying to find an exit, maybe make a little

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Speaker 5: bit of money. The tendency becomes to sort of. slow down,

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Speaker 5: take a deep breath, relax. And we were lucky that

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Speaker 5: we kept a lot of the core folks, even to

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Speaker 5: this day, on the team at Quest. And we didn’t

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Speaker 5: do that at all. We doubled down. We doubled down

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Speaker 5: on everything that made Quest different. There’s a tendency to

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Speaker 5: want to go corporate. There’s a tendency to want to

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Speaker 5: sort of, as we like to say, be big company.

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Speaker 5: What we try to do is double down on being scrappy.

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Speaker 5: The mission stayed intact. We got more obsessive about our consumer.

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Speaker 5: And I think actually with Simply Good acquiring Quest, it

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Speaker 5: gave us access to more resources, more data, which actually

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Speaker 5: helped us drive the consumer harder. And to the credit

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Speaker 5: of Simply Good, when they acquired Quest, they didn’t try

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Speaker 5: to fix Quest completely. I mean, obviously, we had some

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Speaker 5: things we had to do, right? We had to integrate.

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Speaker 5: We had to take on new processes, new systems. But

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Speaker 5: they let us be Quest.

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Speaker 6: I am really proud of everything that we created at

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Speaker 6: Hostess Brands. If you think about the 10-year arc of Hostess,

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Speaker 6: of going from being liquidated, to your point, to selling

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Speaker 6: for a great price and a great multiple, it was

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Speaker 6: a huge ride. And when I think about everything that

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Speaker 6: we created at Hostess, we really built a strong innovation engine.

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Speaker 6: We had the ability to really redefine our go-to-market in

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Speaker 6: terms of our distribution model, our manufacturing capabilities. We built

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Speaker 6: sales and channels that a lot of companies weren’t focused on.

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Speaker 6: And so we accomplished a lot. When I think about

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Speaker 6: kind of pivoting to Smucker, the thing that’s great about

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Speaker 6: Smucker is now we’re basically taking this engine that was

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Speaker 6: built at Hostess and then applying a lot of the

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Speaker 6: skills and the scale of a larger organization to take

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Speaker 6: everything we did and really just turbocharge it.

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Speaker 4: That founder connection is amazing because I’ll tell you, I

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Speaker 4: actually spent a couple of days ago talking to Kathleen

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Speaker 4: and be in understanding that DNA is absolutely critical. So

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Speaker 4: leading that acquisition brand takes a different muscle altogether. If

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Speaker 4: you think about it, the very reason that a Colgate

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Speaker 4: acquires a Tom’s of Maine or a Mondelez acquires a

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Speaker 4: Tate’s is because these brands bring an incremental value to

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Speaker 4: the parent company. That parent company can’t make a Tom’s

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Speaker 4: of Maine. They can’t make a Tate’s because that’s not

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Speaker 4: in their DNA. So sure, there is this product portfolio

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Speaker 4: that hopefully is in the wheelhouse of the parent company,

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Speaker 4: but it’s also distinct enough to be incremental. And when

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Speaker 4: we think about an acquisition, we often think about that

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Speaker 4: product portfolio. But culture is where the true incrementality of

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Speaker 4: the value lies. So successfully leading an acquisition brand requires

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Speaker 4: that dogmatic focus on culture, on preservation, on rebuilding, if

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Speaker 4: you will, that culture into newcomers. The question that I

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Speaker 4: often ask myself, whether at Tom’s or at Tate’s, is

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Speaker 4: how do I continue to keep that DNA, that challenger

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Speaker 4: brand mentality to innovate, to experiment, to be obsessive about

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Speaker 4: the quality, to continue to deliver that super hyper growth, right?

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer

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Speaker 3: at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a

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Speaker 3: new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad

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Speaker 3: gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once.

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Speaker 3: As a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating

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Speaker 3: and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth,

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Speaker 3: we’re coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience

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Speaker 3: stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that

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Speaker 3: will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is

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Speaker 3: available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out

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Speaker 3: every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.