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Speaker 1: There’s only going to be one first day of preschool

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Speaker 1: and there’s only 18 spring breaks that you get before

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Speaker 1: your kid goes to college. And finding and maintaining that balance,

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Speaker 1: like I said, a woman who was on the team,

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Speaker 1: she was really good at that and would be overt

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Speaker 1: in saying like, look, it’s not like I have to

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Speaker 1: be at every soccer game, but I’d like to be

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Speaker 1: at the first one or I’d like to be at

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Speaker 1: the championship and finding that balance. Like we talk about

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Speaker 1: work-life balance a lot in careers, but we don’t, I think,

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Speaker 1: model and be overt about saying, this is why I’m

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Speaker 1: doing this at this time. And I really respected that

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Speaker 1: she did that. I was technically her manager, and I

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Speaker 1: really respected that she did that. And I learned a

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Speaker 1: lot from her.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to today’s episode of Brave Commerce.

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Speaker 3: I’m Rachel Tippegraph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.

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Speaker 2: I’m Sarah Hofstetter, president of Profitero.

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Speaker 3: And this is a show that talks about what’s relevant

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Speaker 3: in e-commerce for the world’s biggest brands. Sarah, I know

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Speaker 3: the high level bullet points about your resume started as

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Speaker 3: a journalist. Somehow then you became the CEO of 360i

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Speaker 3: and so forth. But there feels like there has to

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Speaker 3: be an in-between where you probably had to make some

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Speaker 3: tough calls and what job to go get next. Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The crossroads sometimes are not even obvious as crossroads, but

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Speaker 2: like I started out in journalism, but man, I could

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Speaker 2: not pay the rent. It was really that simple. Now,

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Speaker 2: was I trying to figure out how to make it work? Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately, I ended up taking a pivot and going

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Speaker 2: to the dark side of PR. And that’s how I eventually,

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Speaker 2: over the course of eight years, ended up at 360i

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Speaker 2: doing PR for them before I even ended up going

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Speaker 2: down the founding of the social media route and then

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Speaker 2: moving up to become the CEO.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: It is a series of pivots. It’s stuff you don’t

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Speaker 2: expect because why would you go into PR if you’re

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Speaker 2: a journalist? Well, it’s just storytelling with a bias, but

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Speaker 2: it’s not as immediately obvious. And when people are like,

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Speaker 2: you’re going into PR, you don’t know anything about PR.

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Speaker 2: It’s like, I don’t know. I bought PR for dummies

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Speaker 2: at Barnes and Noble in 1996 and I never looked back.

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Speaker 2: It’s these things that kind of make you think, is

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Speaker 2: it time? That being said, I’ve only had a couple

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Speaker 2: of bosses my whole career. It’s kind of interesting when

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Speaker 2: you know it’s time. Sometimes it’s obvious, sometimes it’s not.

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Speaker 2: But the reasons for it are always… kind of different,

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Speaker 2: but you decided to actually say, F this, I’m getting

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Speaker 2: out and I’m starting my own company.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I’ve been my own boss for 10 years,

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Speaker 3: so I don’t even know what it feels like anymore

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Speaker 3: to have a boss. Though I have a board.

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Speaker 2: One could argue my boss is not really much of

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Speaker 2: a boss, but that’s a whole other story.

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Speaker 3: Throwing shade to Brian.

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Speaker 2: It’s a partnership. He just signs my checks, that’s all.

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Speaker 3: I think about the people who we brought on the

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Speaker 3: show who’ve really had some amazing career arcs. They’re constantly

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Speaker 3: raising their hands for jobs that other people don’t want

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Speaker 3: or jobs that have never existed before.

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Speaker 2: Or at companies that you might be scratching your head

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Speaker 2: and saying, say what?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. My career strategy has always been to do the

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Speaker 3: unsexy thing because it only can get sexy.

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Speaker 2: If Micmac is not the epitome of sexy, I don’t

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Speaker 2: know what is.

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Speaker 3: Ten years ago, no one thought mass retail was sexy.

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Speaker 3: This was during the heyday of D2C brands. So now

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Speaker 3: it’s sexy.

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Speaker 2: Because you made it. You brought sexy back.

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Speaker 3: Enough about me and enough about you. There’s another great

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Speaker 3: leader who, in many ways, has had a traditional CPG

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Speaker 3: career if you just looked at the names on his resume.

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Speaker 3: But when you learn about the moves that he’s made

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Speaker 3: throughout his career, it’s absolutely not traditional.

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Speaker 2: Now, Dan O’Leary is not one to… shy from a challenge.

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Speaker 2: He is one to always demonstrate an insane amount of

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Speaker 2: curiosity about pretty much anything. And his career is no

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Speaker 2: exception to that. And where he finds his sources of ideas, inspiration,

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Speaker 2: pivotal moments in his personal and professional life. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he is absolutely a pillar of strength while also showing

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Speaker 2: hints of vulnerability. It’s just A bunch of paradoxes all

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Speaker 2: showing up in a beautiful package.

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Speaker 3: Well, let’s bring Dan onto the show.

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Speaker 2: Longtime friend and a super intelligent and thought-provoking individual. Not

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Speaker 2: that I’m hyping him up too much. He can only

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Speaker 2: disappoint from here, but he won’t. Dan O’Leary, the SVP

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Speaker 2: and general manager of Sweet Baked Snacks and Pat at

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Speaker 2: the JM Smucker Company. Thank you, Dan. I am so

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Speaker 2: thrilled that you finally, after begging, agreed to come on

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It’s great to speak

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Speaker 1: with you today.

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Speaker 2: So we’re going to start the conversation about being left-handed.

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Speaker 1: I am left-handed.

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Speaker 2: And so I’m going to start with a question or

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Speaker 2: more of a comment about lefties. So you have spent

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Speaker 2: your career in a way that is seemingly straightforward, food CPG.

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Speaker 2: Like if you look at your LinkedIn, it’s food company,

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Speaker 2: food company, food company, food company. Totally makes sense. But

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Speaker 2: it’s actually been a series of left-hand turns. So can

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Speaker 2: you take our listeners down your career path and why

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Speaker 2: you made the left-hand turns that you made? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, to start, I love the phrase left-hand turns.

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Speaker 1: And I think it does describe my career well in

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Speaker 1: the guise of a 20-year career in CPG. And when

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Speaker 1: I started my career at Kraft 20 years ago, I’d

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Speaker 1: actually gotten the advice that You know, if you don’t

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Speaker 1: find some different paths, you’re not going to stand out

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Speaker 1: at all. That everybody kind of in these big companies

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Speaker 1: can follow the same trajectory. And then everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: has the same background and resume. And so what I

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Speaker 1: find about these big companies is they’re great on training.

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Speaker 1: They’re great on giving that sense of purpose and culture.

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Speaker 1: They’re great in building that pedigree. But they kind of

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Speaker 1: like to put you in a box. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to break out of that box. And so I would

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Speaker 1: say I started breaking out of that box from even

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Speaker 1: the first role I had at Kraft. I had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to work on several different businesses. And I chose

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Speaker 1: the small one that was in a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 1: And it was this little brand called Philadelphia Snack Bars.

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Speaker 1: It had been launched under the Philadelphia Cream Cheese brand.

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Speaker 1: It was a little cheesecake bars. Had done really well.

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Speaker 1: Brand started to decline. Was not in really a good place.

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Speaker 1: And it was one of those things where you either

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Speaker 1: stay in it and try to make a lot of

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Speaker 1: investment or exit. So I did a ton of work

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Speaker 1: and I actually, I kind of wrote myself out of

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Speaker 1: a job. I said, we need to exit this business.

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Speaker 1: The long-term viability of it is just not there. And

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Speaker 1: I learned so much from that process. And so I

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Speaker 1: would say that was kind of the first left-hand turn.

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Speaker 1: And the second one within craft was I did a

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Speaker 1: tour in strategy and I did a tour in sales.

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Speaker 1: And those both took me off the conventional path, the

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Speaker 1: path that all my peers were on. But what I

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Speaker 1: liked about those assignments is I learned something that was

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Speaker 1: very different I got to know people throughout the company

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Speaker 1: that were people that I would not have gotten to know.

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Speaker 1: And I just got a lot of exposure to external constituencies,

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Speaker 1: be it customers, be it investors, be it analysts. You

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Speaker 1: learn so much from that opportunity. But the thing that

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Speaker 1: I saw with these kind of left-hand turns is when

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Speaker 1: you do something that’s different, if you’ve got half the

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Speaker 1: org going, wow, that’s really cool. And the other half going,

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Speaker 1: that’s bananas. Why on earth are you taking that job?

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Speaker 1: You’re probably doing something right because that’s the thing where

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Speaker 1: you’re really going to learn. The next big change I

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Speaker 1: took is I’d been at Kraft for 10 years. I

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Speaker 1: was working for an awesome boss. I was in an

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Speaker 1: awesome job. But I was just kind of feeling the

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Speaker 1: issue of something different. And I got a call to

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Speaker 1: basically help build a company around a series of acquired brands.

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Speaker 1: And the company was Mizcon. It’s a Japanese food company.

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Speaker 1: It’s family-owned, 220 years, continuous family management. And they had

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Speaker 1: bought a series of brands from Unilever. The big ones

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Speaker 1: were Ragu and Bertolli brand pasta sauces. And they bought

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Speaker 1: the brands, but the trick was the teams didn’t come

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Speaker 1: with the businesses. And they basically had $ 600 million in revenue,

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Speaker 1: but very few people to run it. No structures. Everything

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Speaker 1: was like a blank sheet of paper. And when I

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Speaker 1: kind of went into those interviews to talk about the job,

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Speaker 1: I just got so excited because I’ve always thought of

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Speaker 1: myself as a builder. And this seemed like one of

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Speaker 1: the most exhilarating builds I could have because you had

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Speaker 1: all this revenue, but you didn’t have any people. You

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Speaker 1: didn’t have the strategy. You didn’t have the frameworks. And

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Speaker 1: so I jumped in. And the first couple of years

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Speaker 1: at MizCon were some of the most fun I’ve ever

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Speaker 1: had in my career because it was building and it

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Speaker 1: was so different. But again, when I made that decision,

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Speaker 1: a lot of folks at Kraft are like, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? You know, you’re on this great path here.

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Speaker 1: You’re in this great role. And I just love the

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Speaker 1: idea of doing something different. The last kind of left-hand turn,

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Speaker 1: I would say, is joining Hostess Brands. And so if

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Speaker 1: you kind of believe the old tapes on Hostess, you

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Speaker 1: know that the company had been liquidated. You know, you

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Speaker 1: kind of see the challenges that the brands had had.

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Speaker 1: But Meeting our CEO and kind of a guy that

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Speaker 1: I’d known from Kraft, Andy Callahan, I really got to

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Speaker 1: learn about the opportunity that was in front of it

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Speaker 1: on these businesses and the opportunity to really leverage the

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Speaker 1: snacking positioning that the brands had to really help build

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Speaker 1: out some new capabilities and marketing and R & D

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Speaker 1: and quality to really drive this growth agenda. And it

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Speaker 1: was a tough decision. You know, like I really thought

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Speaker 1: a lot about it because I was in a role

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Speaker 1: at the time that I really liked. But the thing

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Speaker 1: that was so cool about it was this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: build again and to build for growth. And so I

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Speaker 1: jumped at it. It’s been a wild ride. It was

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Speaker 1: two years at Hostess and then this acquisition process started

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Speaker 1: and now it’s transitioning with the brands into the JM

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Speaker 1: Smucker company, which has just been a great transition as well.

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Speaker 1: And so when I kind of look back at like

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Speaker 1: the arc of my career, I guess the things that

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Speaker 1: I would share are is finding those assignments that are different,

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Speaker 1: where you are going to learn, where you’re going to

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Speaker 1: have the stretch And they make you feel uncomfortable. Those

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Speaker 1: are always like, if you kind of are checking all

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Speaker 1: those boxes, you know, it’s a right move. And then

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Speaker 1: in the same respect, if you’ve got folks saying, why

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Speaker 1: on earth are you doing that? It probably is a

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Speaker 1: really right move because it means you’re doing something that’s

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Speaker 1: going to differentiate who you are and what you can do.

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Speaker 2: So Dan, let’s talk about data and insights. Brands are

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to grow volume. This isn’t

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Speaker 2: just about taking on price. They think about usage occasions.

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Speaker 2: And I often think about when we first met, Almost

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Speaker 2: 15 years ago, you were the marketing lead on Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: cream cheese. And a big part of your success was

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Speaker 2: around moving from using cream cheese as a spread, which

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Speaker 2: was about a tablespoon per use, to using cream cheese

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Speaker 2: as a cooking ingredient, which would be more like a

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Speaker 2: half a cup per use, or maybe more. The creamier,

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Speaker 2: the better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: How did you unlock that insight that cream cheese could

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Speaker 2: realistically be a replacement for butter or cream? And how

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Speaker 2: did you convince Kraft and ultimately the country that you

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Speaker 2: were right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, you know, I started my career at Digitas,

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Speaker 1: which is a marketing services firm that was all about

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Speaker 1: data and reaching the right people with the right message.

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Speaker 1: So the idea of using data analytics has, I guess,

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Speaker 1: always been in my DNA. You know, the second thing

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Speaker 1: I would say is I’ve always believed when you’re running

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Speaker 1: these businesses, you have to have a maniacal focus on

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Speaker 1: bringing new consumers into the franchise. You have to focus

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Speaker 1: on household penetration. There is always going to be churn.

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Speaker 1: There’s always going to be buyers coming in and out,

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Speaker 1: but you have to be growing that household penetration. But

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Speaker 1: the thing that I felt like in CPG a lot

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Speaker 1: of times is that brands like to put consumers in boxes.

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Speaker 1: And so, for example, if the main use of cream

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Speaker 1: cheese or a spread is on a bagel, let’s just

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Speaker 1: target people who buy bagels and get them to buy

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Speaker 1: a little bit more cream cheese. And that was the

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Speaker 1: strategy for a long time. But if you really dug

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Speaker 1: into the data, the thing that you saw is that

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Speaker 1: when consumers were using the product, they were using it

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Speaker 1: actually in a ton of different ways. They might buy

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Speaker 1: it because they wanted to spread on a bagel. But

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Speaker 1: once it was in the house, they were baking with it.

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Speaker 1: They were making appetizers with it. They were tossing it

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Speaker 1: into dinner recipes. They’re making side dishes, all those types

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Speaker 1: of different things. And so the thing that we saw

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Speaker 1: is if we really could widen the aperture and really

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Speaker 1: not limit the way the consumer thought about the business

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Speaker 1: and the brand, really kind of embrace how they were

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Speaker 1: doing it and suggest that through marketing. And it was

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Speaker 1: perfect timing to do that because you had the rise

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Speaker 1: of social and you had the rise of channels where

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Speaker 1: consumers wanted to kind of send in and you’re building

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Speaker 1: truly that two-way relationship. And so I would say what

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Speaker 1: we did is we took the lead from the consumer.

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Speaker 1: And instead of telling them what to do, we offered

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Speaker 1: them a medium for them to be able to contribute ideas.

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Speaker 1: And we came up with some programs at the time

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Speaker 1: that were really innovative. We won a gold Effie for

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Speaker 1: this work. And it’s some of the proudest work I’ve

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Speaker 1: had in my career You know, in terms of convincing

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Speaker 1: management to do it, I’d say it really was painting

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Speaker 1: the picture through the data of how big this opportunity

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Speaker 1: could be, how the consumer was thinking about the brand,

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Speaker 1: what that usage strategy really meant for household penetration, because

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of consumers who just frankly weren’t

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Speaker 1: buying bagels anymore. So they weren’t buying the brand. And

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Speaker 1: so you showed how you could win back that penetration.

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Speaker 1: And then showing that it was also relatively low risk

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Speaker 1: within the execution of how we were doing it. We

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Speaker 1: weren’t saying, don’t do this. We were just saying, do

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Speaker 1: this in addition. And so it’s some of the work

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Speaker 1: I’m most proud of and I think really drove a

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Speaker 1: nice growth run on the business.

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Speaker 3: Amazing story. And you use this word often, building, being

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Speaker 3: a builder. But when I’m also hearing your story, I

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Speaker 3: hear a story of resilience. I hear a leader who

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Speaker 3: is a turnaround expert, which involves an enormous amount of

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Speaker 3: change management, I’m sure, in terms of a leader. So

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Speaker 3: when you were entering all these roles that essentially required

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Speaker 3: you to pivot, shift strategy, get people to think differently,

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Speaker 3: when you look back, like, is there any thread where

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Speaker 3: from each experience you’re like, this is sort of the

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Speaker 3: leadership playbook that I brought to those experiences?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it’s a couple of things. I think

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Speaker 1: the first big one is when you’re faced with a

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Speaker 1: major change or you’re faced with a strategic shift, it’s

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Speaker 1: easy to put your head down immediately and say, I

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Speaker 1: got to focus on the work. But what you have

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Speaker 1: to do first is focus on the people and focus

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Speaker 1: on the team and recognize that while it’s a big

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Speaker 1: change for you and how are you going to react

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Speaker 1: to it, it’s a much bigger change for the teams

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Speaker 1: of people that you’re working with. And so having a

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Speaker 1: plan where you’re being very clear on objectives, very clear

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Speaker 1: on the path that we’re going to be on, very

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Speaker 1: clear that it’s going to be tough. It’s not going

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Speaker 1: to be easy to get along this journey, but then

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Speaker 1: be able to paint the picture of where that destination

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Speaker 1: is and what it means for them. And then throughout

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Speaker 1: that arc, it’s just communicate, communicate, communicate. And every time

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Speaker 1: I’ve done one of these, I think, man, I’m communicating

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Speaker 1: too much or I’m overexposed or people are going to

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Speaker 1: be sick of hearing from me. I realize it’s probably

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Speaker 1: still not enough because people long for those communications. And

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Speaker 1: so I’ll give you like a quick example. When I

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Speaker 1: joined Smucker and we’re making the integration of Hostess into Smucker,

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Speaker 1: I started kind of like an old timey weekly email.

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Speaker 1: And I just sent out an email every Friday at

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Speaker 1: 10 a.m. And people know it’s coming where I say, hey,

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Speaker 1: here’s what we accomplished this week. Here’s what we got

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Speaker 1: to get done next week. Here’s some wins that we had.

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Speaker 1: Here’s some fun little things that happened that we can celebrate.

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Speaker 1: Here’s some problems that we got to go after that

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Speaker 1: we’re working on. I just found that people, they want

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Speaker 1: to hear from their leadership and they want that kind

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Speaker 1: of frequent contact. And the fact that they can just

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Speaker 1: expect this email, it’s not super formatted nicely. It’s nothing

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Speaker 1: too fancy, but they can just come to expect they’re

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Speaker 1: going to hear from you every week. And what it’s

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Speaker 1: done is it’s created a relationship between me and the team.

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Speaker 1: So I’d say that the first part really is around

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Speaker 1: the team. You know, the second piece you talk about

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Speaker 1: is resiliency. And I would say this is something that

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Speaker 1: I will not credit on being perfect at throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: but it is probably the most important thing is when

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Speaker 1: you’re turning a business or you’re making a big change,

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Speaker 1: it’s hard and things are not going to go well.

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Speaker 1: And that’s kind of what we’re paid to do is

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Speaker 1: to solve those problems and to kind of figure it out.

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Speaker 1: And if If the leader isn’t resilient, how on earth

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Speaker 1: do you expect the team to be resilient? And so

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Speaker 1: the thing I’ve learned is you got to find that

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Speaker 1: kind of core strength within yourself, but then you also

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Speaker 1: have to reach out and find mentors. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of times, like when I’ve been going through major changes

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Speaker 1: in my career within the organization that I’ve been in there,

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Speaker 1: there’s not necessarily someone you can talk to a lot

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Speaker 1: about it. And so it’s like kind of finding people

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Speaker 1: where you can kind of talk in more generalities, especially

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Speaker 1: if it’s more sensitive or confidential information, say, hey, How

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Speaker 1: would you think about this? Or this is how I’m

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Speaker 1: doing it. What advice do you have from experience that

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Speaker 1: you have? I’ve always found those just to be really helpful,

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Speaker 1: like those mentor relationships, those peer relationships to really build

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Speaker 1: up the resiliency. You know, I’d say those are the

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Speaker 1: big things that have helped me on all the changes.

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Speaker 1: And I think once you’ve done a bunch of these,

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Speaker 1: you almost, I don’t know if you’re glutton for punishment

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Speaker 1: or what the right words are, but you want to

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Speaker 1: keep doing more because you sort of realize you’re like, man,

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Speaker 1: it was really tough. It was really intense. I worked

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Speaker 1: really hard and the reward was worth it. And then

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Speaker 1: I love the team side of it because then when

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Speaker 1: you see the team start to turn and you see

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Speaker 1: them moving through the change curve and you can say, man,

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Speaker 1: like look at what this team has accomplished. It’s such

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Speaker 1: a gratifying experience. It’s like you’d want to just keep

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Speaker 1: doing more and more of it.

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Speaker 3: I hear you. I did two acquisitions last year and

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Speaker 3: you get the bug and it’s like an addiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But here you are, you helped Hostess exit for $ 5. 7 billion.

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Speaker 3: It’s a pretty impressive number.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And now you’re at Smucker, the new parent company. What

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Speaker 3: motivates you to stay?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I am really proud of everything that we created

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Speaker 1: at Hostess Brands. If you think about the 10-year arc

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Speaker 1: of Hostess, of going from being liquidated to your point

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Speaker 1: to selling for a great price and a great multiple,

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Speaker 1: it was a huge ride. And when I think about

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Speaker 1: everything that we created at Hostess, we really built a

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Speaker 1: strong innovation engine. We had the ability to really redefine

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Speaker 1: our go-to-market in terms of our distribution model, our manufacturing capabilities.

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Speaker 1: We built sales and channels that a lot of companies

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Speaker 1: weren’t focused on. And so we accomplished a lot. When

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Speaker 1: I think about kind of pivoting to Smucker, the thing

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Speaker 1: that’s great about Smucker is now we’re basically taking this

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Speaker 1: engine that was built at Hostess and then applying a

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Speaker 1: lot of the skills and the scale of a larger

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Speaker 1: organization to take everything we did and really just turbocharge it.

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Speaker 1: And so You know, one of the examples that I

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Speaker 1: would give you is marketing capabilities. Like we built some

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Speaker 1: really great marketing at Hostess, but now being part of

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Speaker 1: a larger organization within Smucker, being able to apply their

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Speaker 1: best in class marketing models, you know, kind of, if

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Speaker 1: you look at what they’ve done to redefine their brands,

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Speaker 1: like Jif and Meowmix and brands like that, like we

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Speaker 1: think we can bring a lot of that now into

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Speaker 1: Hostess and that same kind of thinking. You know, the

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Speaker 1: second thing I would say that really is exciting about

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Speaker 1: coming into Smucker is scale. And so when you’re building

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Speaker 1: an organization, There’s a lot of things that you can

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Speaker 1: do internally and kind of do organically on your own.

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Speaker 1: But there are places where scale helps. And I think

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Speaker 1: about that in-store. I think about that with our larger customers.

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Speaker 1: I think about getting access to channels that would have

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Speaker 1: been a little bit more complex for Hostess. And so

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Speaker 1: we’re really trying to tap into a lot of that,

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Speaker 1: call it Smucker scale, and really build that out. The

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Speaker 1: third thing I would just say is, and this is

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more personally, is just the team

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Speaker 1: of people at Smucker. When you’re going through an acquisition process,

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Speaker 1: I’ve joked, it’s kind of like going on a series

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Speaker 1: of blind dates. And you go on this blind date,

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Speaker 1: and then the next day, the person you went on

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Speaker 1: the blind date calls and says, I need to see

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Speaker 1: all of your financial records, and I need to go

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Speaker 1: through every closet in every part of your house, and

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Speaker 1: you know everything about you. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: one day they call and say, hey, we’re getting married tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: It’s such a fast process. But throughout the process, just

418
00:19:26,070 –> 00:19:29,890
Speaker 1: really enjoyed getting to know the Smucker teams. And from

419
00:19:29,930 –> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 1: Mark Smucker, our CEO, all the way down, like everyone

420
00:19:32,980 –> 00:19:36,419
Speaker 1: we met, it just felt like home right from the start.

421
00:19:37,060 –> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: And there were so many kind of similarities, maybe in

422
00:19:39,400 –> 00:19:43,139
Speaker 1: terms of personality, you know, like cultures can be different,

423
00:19:43,160 –> 00:19:45,610
Speaker 1: but like the values were very similar. And we were

424
00:19:45,650 –> 00:19:49,700
Speaker 1: a mission value led company at Hostess Brands. And Smucker

425
00:19:50,140 –> 00:19:54,260
Speaker 1: is a mission and vision guided company. And so the

426
00:19:54,320 –> 00:19:56,530
Speaker 1: transition for me and the team, I think has been,

427
00:19:56,550 –> 00:20:00,590
Speaker 1: it’s been relatively seamless. With integration, there’s always bumps, there’s

428
00:20:00,609 –> 00:20:03,730
Speaker 1: always things that happen. But the fact that there were

429
00:20:03,790 –> 00:20:06,650
Speaker 1: so many similar grounding principles has made it a great start.

430
00:20:07,070 –> 00:20:08,490
Speaker 2: I want to pick your brain a little bit more

431
00:20:08,609 –> 00:20:12,250
Speaker 2: on these cultural components because you’ve worked with some very

432
00:20:12,330 –> 00:20:16,129
Speaker 2: extraordinary people. Who’s a mentor that you’ve looked up to

433
00:20:16,550 –> 00:20:19,290
Speaker 2: and learned from? Or maybe somebody that has been a

434
00:20:19,350 –> 00:20:22,890
Speaker 2: mentee who has worked for you that you are just

435
00:20:22,970 –> 00:20:27,530
Speaker 2: inspired by? Because we all are looking for finding our people,

436
00:20:27,650 –> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 2: finding our community, finding people that can help. either inspire

437
00:20:32,520 –> 00:20:35,260
Speaker 2: us or just give us a different perspective?

438
00:20:35,280 –> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: You know, it’s funny, like you say, Sarah, I’ve been

439
00:20:37,220 –> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 1: lucky in my career. I’ve worked for some amazing bosses.

440
00:20:40,340 –> 00:20:42,850
Speaker 1: And what’s also kind of unique about my career is

441
00:20:43,250 –> 00:20:45,929
Speaker 1: I actually haven’t had a ton of bosses. Like you

442
00:20:45,950 –> 00:20:48,550
Speaker 1: think about a 20-year career in CPG, you think, oh,

443
00:20:48,570 –> 00:20:51,780
Speaker 1: you must, you know, go rotate and move around and yada, yada.

444
00:20:51,800 –> 00:20:54,460
Speaker 1: Like I actually, I’ve worked for a handful of people

445
00:20:54,480 –> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: and I’ve worked for them for a relatively long period

446
00:20:57,040 –> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 1: of time. And I’ve learned from them and several of

447
00:20:59,720 –> 00:21:03,500
Speaker 1: them are public company CEOs or leaders in big organizations.

448
00:21:03,580 –> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 1: And I really benefited from that and benefited from staying

449
00:21:07,460 –> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: in touch. One person who was a really good mentor

450
00:21:11,140 –> 00:21:13,449
Speaker 1: and has become a great personal friend of mine is

451
00:21:13,470 –> 00:21:16,410
Speaker 1: a woman named Jill Baskin. And she had a great

452
00:21:16,490 –> 00:21:19,590
Speaker 1: career at Leo Burnett. She came into Kraft as an

453
00:21:19,650 –> 00:21:23,910
Speaker 1: advertising director and recently retired from Hershey as their CMO.

454
00:21:24,510 –> 00:21:27,810
Speaker 1: And when Jill came into It was kind of an

455
00:21:27,830 –> 00:21:29,390
Speaker 1: interesting moment for me. I would say I was making

456
00:21:29,410 –> 00:21:32,670
Speaker 1: that pivot from manager to leader. And we had a

457
00:21:32,750 –> 00:21:35,060
Speaker 1: lot of work to do on the advertising front on

458
00:21:35,080 –> 00:21:36,739
Speaker 1: the brand that I worked on. And actually, that’s where

459
00:21:36,780 –> 00:21:38,740
Speaker 1: I got to meet Sarah. It was that work 15

460
00:21:38,740 –> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: years ago. And the thing I really learned from Jill

461
00:21:42,420 –> 00:21:44,460
Speaker 1: was this idea that there’s a lot of times when

462
00:21:44,480 –> 00:21:47,820
Speaker 1: you’re doing stuff that good can be good enough. And

463
00:21:47,840 –> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: there’s a lot of times where you’re doing the work

464
00:21:50,920 –> 00:21:53,730
Speaker 1: where great is not good enough and you need to

465
00:21:53,750 –> 00:21:56,980
Speaker 1: strive for excellence. But you have to pick those battles.

466
00:21:57,000 –> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: And you can say this is 80-20 or whatever little

467
00:21:59,140 –> 00:22:01,770
Speaker 1: cliche you want to call it. But I thought Jill

468
00:22:01,810 –> 00:22:04,990
Speaker 1: was really good at picking those moments and saying, we

469
00:22:05,090 –> 00:22:08,109
Speaker 1: are not there. We have to keep pushing and pushing

470
00:22:08,130 –> 00:22:08,690
Speaker 1: and pushing.

471
00:22:08,869 –> 00:22:11,530
Speaker 2: I can tell you, dude, as her agency partner, I

472
00:22:12,250 –> 00:22:14,670
Speaker 2: felt like I heard that more than I heard anything else.

473
00:22:16,080 –> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

474
00:22:16,580 –> 00:22:17,220
Speaker 2: She was right.

475
00:22:17,280 –> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: She was pushing. But yeah, what I learned from Jill

476
00:22:19,440 –> 00:22:21,260
Speaker 1: is a lot of times when you’re growing up in

477
00:22:21,280 –> 00:22:23,870
Speaker 1: marketing and You’re so focused on, well, if we could

478
00:22:23,890 –> 00:22:27,060
Speaker 1: just turn the package by five degrees or if we

479
00:22:27,100 –> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: could make the logo just a little bit bigger, this

480
00:22:30,180 –> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: color blue isn’t just quite the level of blue I

481
00:22:33,020 –> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: was looking for. And it’s like, yeah, on some level,

482
00:22:35,140 –> 00:22:38,310
Speaker 1: those things matter. But like where I really learned with

483
00:22:38,390 –> 00:22:41,890
Speaker 1: Jill was beating up the strategy again and again and again.

484
00:22:41,910 –> 00:22:44,929
Speaker 1: And was it tight enough? And were we really thinking

485
00:22:45,070 –> 00:22:47,850
Speaker 1: big enough on an idea, you know, with something that

486
00:22:47,869 –> 00:22:50,630
Speaker 1: was kind of cool? but it wasn’t going to meet

487
00:22:50,650 –> 00:22:53,670
Speaker 1: the brand objective. And it was an interesting time too,

488
00:22:53,690 –> 00:22:55,530
Speaker 1: because it was really the rise of social when we

489
00:22:55,550 –> 00:22:57,830
Speaker 1: were working together. And there were so many things you

490
00:22:58,050 –> 00:23:00,790
Speaker 1: could go do. And it was really that pivot point

491
00:23:00,830 –> 00:23:02,909
Speaker 1: from when I started marketing at the age of myself,

492
00:23:02,970 –> 00:23:05,830
Speaker 1: it was like you had two TV ads, four print ads,

493
00:23:05,869 –> 00:23:08,050
Speaker 1: and some FSIs. And that was kind of what you did.

494
00:23:08,070 –> 00:23:09,410
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you had all this

495
00:23:09,830 –> 00:23:12,830
Speaker 1: content that you could be creating. And there was just

496
00:23:12,850 –> 00:23:14,330
Speaker 1: a lot of things that you could go do that,

497
00:23:14,470 –> 00:23:16,989
Speaker 1: like I said, were fun, but were they really going

498
00:23:17,010 –> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: to push the business where it needed to go. And

499
00:23:19,420 –> 00:23:21,700
Speaker 1: that’s what I really learned from Jill. And I continue

500
00:23:21,740 –> 00:23:23,850
Speaker 1: to learn from her. I mean, she’s somebody who I,

501
00:23:24,619 –> 00:23:26,490
Speaker 1: a year or two ago, I remember calling, we were

502
00:23:26,510 –> 00:23:28,590
Speaker 1: working on something at Hostess and it was, it just

503
00:23:28,609 –> 00:23:30,469
Speaker 1: didn’t feel like it was clicking and to be able

504
00:23:30,490 –> 00:23:32,470
Speaker 1: to bounce that offer and say like, hey, this is

505
00:23:32,490 –> 00:23:35,389
Speaker 1: how I’m thinking about this issue. Like, where would you push? And,

506
00:23:35,410 –> 00:23:37,449
Speaker 1: you know, what do you think? And so having that

507
00:23:37,609 –> 00:23:41,350
Speaker 1: mentor relationship has been incredibly helpful. And I think what’s

508
00:23:41,390 –> 00:23:44,490
Speaker 1: kind of cool too is when those mentors really become

509
00:23:44,590 –> 00:23:48,220
Speaker 1: friends because then you know that they’ve got you’re back

510
00:23:48,280 –> 00:23:50,850
Speaker 1: and you can trust them. And someone that I’ve menteed,

511
00:23:50,900 –> 00:23:52,969
Speaker 1: I’m not going to name names here, but there was

512
00:23:53,170 –> 00:23:55,550
Speaker 1: a person that I managed a few years ago that

513
00:23:55,609 –> 00:23:59,410
Speaker 1: was really helpful for me in kind of also thinking

514
00:23:59,430 –> 00:24:02,690
Speaker 1: through this idea of balance. And so I started a

515
00:24:02,760 –> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: family a little bit later in life and I was

516
00:24:05,540 –> 00:24:07,580
Speaker 1: kind of used to doing my job and my career

517
00:24:08,080 –> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 1: without kids. And then suddenly you get kids and, you know,

518
00:24:11,220 –> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: I’m sure everyone who’s had kids kind of goes through

519
00:24:13,020 –> 00:24:15,700
Speaker 1: this where everything changes and And you do realize that

520
00:24:15,760 –> 00:24:17,659
Speaker 1: you have to be excellent at two things at the

521
00:24:17,700 –> 00:24:21,020
Speaker 1: same time. But also finding the balance to recognize that

522
00:24:21,060 –> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: a lot of what we do is incredibly important. It’s

523
00:24:22,859 –> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: incredibly important to our consumers and our customers and our

524
00:24:26,060 –> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: company and our shareholders and all. But there’s only going

525
00:24:29,859 –> 00:24:32,940
Speaker 1: to be one first day of preschool. And there’s only

526
00:24:32,940 –> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: 18 spring breaks that you get before your kid goes

527
00:24:35,270 –> 00:24:39,510
Speaker 1: to college. And finding and maintaining that balance. Like I said,

528
00:24:39,530 –> 00:24:41,090
Speaker 1: a woman who was on that team, she was really

529
00:24:41,109 –> 00:24:44,170
Speaker 1: good at that. And would be overt and saying like, look,

530
00:24:44,830 –> 00:24:46,810
Speaker 1: it’s not like I had to be at every soccer game,

531
00:24:47,210 –> 00:24:49,510
Speaker 1: but I’d like to be at the first one or

532
00:24:49,530 –> 00:24:52,130
Speaker 1: I’d like to be at the championship and finding that balance.

533
00:24:52,369 –> 00:24:54,590
Speaker 1: Like we talk about work-life balance a lot in careers,

534
00:24:54,630 –> 00:24:58,070
Speaker 1: but we don’t, I think, model and be overt about saying,

535
00:24:58,130 –> 00:25:00,230
Speaker 1: this is why I’m doing this at this time. And

536
00:25:00,290 –> 00:25:03,070
Speaker 1: I really respected that she did. I was technically her

537
00:25:03,109 –> 00:25:05,270
Speaker 1: manager and I really respected that she did that. And

538
00:25:05,310 –> 00:25:07,790
Speaker 1: I learned a lot from her. And I really tried

539
00:25:07,810 –> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: to keep that going because there’s always something you could

540
00:25:10,910 –> 00:25:13,220
Speaker 1: be doing. And just making sure you’re making a trade-off

541
00:25:13,240 –> 00:25:15,179
Speaker 1: that’s right for you and right for that moment, I

542
00:25:15,200 –> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: think is important.

543
00:25:16,000 –> 00:25:18,460
Speaker 3: Pretty amazing for you to learn this from someone on

544
00:25:18,500 –> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: your team, watching them set boundaries and then you learning

545
00:25:21,280 –> 00:25:21,619
Speaker 3: from it.

546
00:25:21,859 –> 00:25:22,689
Speaker 1: Yeah, I learned from it.

547
00:25:22,830 –> 00:25:25,469
Speaker 3: Yeah, really powerful in terms of reverse mentorship.

548
00:25:25,609 –> 00:25:25,830
Speaker 1: Yeah.

549
00:25:26,590 –> 00:25:28,990
Speaker 3: Maybe that was her bravest thing, but we now have

550
00:25:29,010 –> 00:25:33,330
Speaker 3: to ask you our famous last question, which is, what’s

551
00:25:33,369 –> 00:25:34,330
Speaker 3: the bravest thing you’ve ever done?

552
00:25:34,950 –> 00:25:36,450
Speaker 1: First of all, this is a great question. I thought

553
00:25:36,470 –> 00:25:37,780
Speaker 1: a lot about it. I don’t know that this is

554
00:25:37,820 –> 00:25:41,060
Speaker 1: the bravest thing I’ve ever done, but For me, I’m

555
00:25:41,100 –> 00:25:45,660
Speaker 1: gay and choosing to live authentically at work was probably

556
00:25:45,680 –> 00:25:48,020
Speaker 1: one of the more powerful things that I’ve done. And

557
00:25:48,040 –> 00:25:49,619
Speaker 1: when I was kind of growing up in the industry,

558
00:25:49,660 –> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: it wasn’t necessarily something you talked a lot about, you know,

559
00:25:52,200 –> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: and there weren’t a lot of role models in the

560
00:25:53,680 –> 00:25:56,420
Speaker 1: large organizations that I worked in. But kind of having

561
00:25:56,440 –> 00:25:58,179
Speaker 1: that moment where you said, hey, I’m going to kind

562
00:25:58,220 –> 00:26:00,530
Speaker 1: of call my shot here. It made it easier when

563
00:26:00,550 –> 00:26:03,190
Speaker 1: I kind of met who’s now my husband and really

564
00:26:03,530 –> 00:26:05,430
Speaker 1: to share that with coworkers in a way that I

565
00:26:05,470 –> 00:26:07,429
Speaker 1: was comfortable with and make that part of my narrative.

566
00:26:08,210 –> 00:26:10,510
Speaker 1: And I found when I did that, it just unlocked

567
00:26:10,890 –> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: a lot of maybe things that I’d held back from

568
00:26:13,600 –> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: being a leader and being able to relate to people.

569
00:26:16,720 –> 00:26:18,780
Speaker 1: And I think people kind of can sense when you’re

570
00:26:18,820 –> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: holding back. And now that I’m not holding back and sharing,

571
00:26:22,220 –> 00:26:23,900
Speaker 1: this is who I am and this is my family

572
00:26:23,920 –> 00:26:26,820
Speaker 1: and can kind of include that narrative in how I

573
00:26:26,840 –> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: communicate with the team and how I think about managing people.

574
00:26:29,619 –> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: It’s been a powerful unlock for me. And I’m really

575
00:26:32,100 –> 00:26:34,649
Speaker 1: glad I’m in this place. I’m also glad our Our

576
00:26:34,750 –> 00:26:36,830
Speaker 1: world isn’t a place where people feel more comfortable to

577
00:26:36,850 –> 00:26:39,650
Speaker 1: do that. I just encourage folks to do what’s right

578
00:26:39,690 –> 00:26:41,830
Speaker 1: for them and make sure that that idea of bringing

579
00:26:41,850 –> 00:26:43,830
Speaker 1: your whole self to work is something that they embrace.

580
00:26:43,850 –> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: I appreciate you sharing that, Dan. I’m gay, which we’ve

581
00:26:47,130 –> 00:26:49,140
Speaker 3: talked about on the show, and I’m starting my family

582
00:26:49,160 –> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: planning journey. So it was inspirational to hear about you

583
00:26:51,740 –> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 3: and your husband.

584
00:26:52,720 –> 00:26:53,239
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.

585
00:26:53,920 –> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: Well, it’s very clear that there’s about to be more

586
00:26:56,859 –> 00:26:59,899
Speaker 3: growth at Smuckers if you’re at the helm. along with

587
00:26:59,920 –> 00:27:03,210
Speaker 3: your great team. And Sarah and I are truly appreciative

588
00:27:03,230 –> 00:27:03,790
Speaker 3: for your time.

589
00:27:04,109 –> 00:27:05,409
Speaker 1: Thank you. It’s been great talking to you.

590
00:27:08,010 –> 00:27:10,669
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed hearing Dan’s story and you want to

591
00:27:10,710 –> 00:27:14,770
Speaker 3: hear about other career arcs that don’t take her traditional path,

592
00:27:15,310 –> 00:27:18,130
Speaker 3: go check out our friend from Diana Hossling, her most

593
00:27:18,210 –> 00:27:23,100
Speaker 3: recent episode, where she really has taken this backbone in

594
00:27:23,160 –> 00:27:26,140
Speaker 3: shopper marketing and sales and built it into the CMO

595
00:27:26,180 –> 00:27:30,110
Speaker 3: of the future. Or go check out our mutual pal,

596
00:27:30,230 –> 00:27:34,650
Speaker 3: Lisa Mann, who has made her way up the marketing

597
00:27:34,690 –> 00:27:38,090
Speaker 3: ranks with CMO at many big global brands. and now

598
00:27:38,430 –> 00:27:42,570
Speaker 3: is a executive recruiter. Or go check out another dear

599
00:27:42,609 –> 00:27:45,490
Speaker 3: friend of ours, Sarabi from Church & Dwight, who started

600
00:27:45,570 –> 00:27:48,230
Speaker 3: her career in IT and is now the chief digital

601
00:27:48,290 –> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: officer of a major PE-backed CPG company. If you like

602
00:27:52,300 –> 00:27:55,179
Speaker 3: what you hear, tell a friend. Give us a review.

603
00:27:55,340 –> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

604
00:28:11,900 –> 00:28:15,860
Speaker 2: Hi, I’m Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman

605
00:28:15,900 –> 00:28:18,669
Speaker 2: and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast

606
00:28:18,710 –> 00:28:22,169
Speaker 2: launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me

607
00:28:22,190 –> 00:28:25,889
Speaker 2: this incredibly smart piece of advice, meet everyone once. As

608
00:28:25,930 –> 00:28:28,230
Speaker 2: a result, I’ve met some of the most fascinating and

609
00:28:28,310 –> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: inspiring people on the planet.

610
00:28:30,210 –> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: Now on Touch of Truth, we’re coming center stage and

611
00:28:33,300 –> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights, and

612
00:28:36,640 –> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: visions for the future that.

613
00:28:37,800 –> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: Will challenge your way of thinking.

614
00:28:39,460 –> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

615
00:28:42,740 –> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to

616
00:28:45,600 –> 00:28:46,100
Speaker 2: see you there.